StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Typhonis 1 wrote:isn`t this thread about the fighter complement of an Executor class Star Destroyer?

It might have been, five pages ago.

nightmare wrote:Here's my not-so-politically correct version:


INT REBEL CRUISER HOME ONE

ADMIRAL ACKBAR "We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that command ship."

CONTROLLER "Their shields are too strong! We'll never get through in time."

ADMIRAL ACKBAR "Then we have no choice. Shields double forward. Prepare for lightspeed."

INT COMMAND SHIP EXECUTOR

PIETT "They're going to ram us! Intensify forward firepower, I don't want anything to get through!"

CONTROLLER "It's too late!"

EXT ENDOR SPACE BATTLE

The damaged HOME ONE under fire from the EXECUTOR is closing in rapidly. Suddenly the Rebel Cruiser jumps to lightspeed and hits the huge Command Ship in a flash of light. Several close by Star Destroyers are caught in the explosion.

How is your version any less politically correct?

Simon H.Johansen wrote:How is your version any less politically correct?

It involves the death of a major rebel character, Ackbar. Obvious no-no in SW. I don't think Lucas worries much over book content though, given the licensing rules and gestapo in his service. I would also have liked if he had stayed with the original draft and let the Falcon blow up in the attack run.

Also, Captain Panaka should have died in TPM (but not Jar-Jar Binks; he should never have come into existance. I have no problams with gungans per se, though). It would add a bit of tragedy and increased the epicness.

True, the closest thing we have to a main character dying, at least on the side of the angels, is Biggs in ep.4

consequences wrote:True, the closest thing we have to a main character dying, at least on the side of the angels, is Biggs in ep.4

What about Obi-Wan?? He also died in ANH. I am aware that he returned as a ghost - that makes him undead, which still is "sort-of" dead.

Okay, sorry, total brainfart.
Although he didn't truly die, I really should have remembered him, and Yoda as well. I have no excuse.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

consequences wrote:True, the closest thing we have to a main character dying, at least on the side of the angels, is Biggs in ep.4

What about Obi-Wan?? He also died in ANH. I am aware that he returned as a ghost - that makes him undead, which still is "sort-of" dead.

Ah, but there's a difference.. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon dies duelling another major character. Yoda died of age, so I don't think that qualifies.

So, unless there's a duel, no heroes can die fighting. Luke was in real danger back in ROTJ

Already explained. You can hear the shift in engine power (no, not by sound in space, but assumed to be an approximation of in-movie reality), the ship dives nose first instead of falling down according to gravitational balance, which would be further to the aft considering the mass and shape of the vessel, and if the DS2 had strong enough gravity to pull in the Executor at that speed, it would suck in Endor, or at the very least make Endor orbit the DS2 instead of the stated opposite. It only takes a minimal amount of common sense to realize it can't be gravity.

Oh, engine shift. Can you be so sure it is engine shift? It is not very clear, right? It can be a sound completely different from engine shift! Or it can be even the modellers goofing up, or it can be just noise not cleared from the original version when they made the special edition.
Ah, you see? You gave the reason that it is because it is falling in a way not caused by gravity. And I still throw back the question: Do you think Lucas CARE if it is that scientifically correct? Sure, basic science, but there are some things nobody will ever care, unless Lucas' intention is to make a movie containing the most accurate calculations as well as completely true to science (except for the sound bit.) that people with nothing better to do can do the calculations.

No - and that's totally irrelevant. What do you have to support the claim it was gravity? Nothing.

I just say why can't it be gravity? What I am asking is, why do you people dismiss it as gravity? Just because some science which Lucas probably (most definitely, actually.) don't follow explained otherwise? As i've said, you are taking this thing (suspension of disbelief) so seriously that you are using these things to explain stuff... for the last time: you're deceiving yourself into thinking you got the answer.

We can dismiss things totally without any support in both fiction and reality.

Reality... mind you, SW is a film. Read the above to see what answers I have got. The same here. Reality... hah. How do you suppose hyperdrives work? Lightsabres?

Why would it remain constant? Even if for example the energy delivered by for example turbolasers were the same in every shot (obviously not) results would still vary depending on the target, the sixe and construction of the actual weapon in question in each event, and the complexity of the macrouniverse, aka chaos theory.

What about length of models and ships? And have you noticed the ISD under the SSD was not actually covered in shadow, even though it was clearly shown to be? You see? This is what I talk about when I say consistency.

What support do you have that there was any mistakes regarding insignias? Do you know the Empire's complete rank structure, perchance? Ah, there's that annoying thing again, lack of evidence.

Lack of evidence? Ask everyone here, and they would tell you it is wrong! WRONG! Admiral Piett has the wrong rank. Everyone has a rank of captain(or something similar, with a 2row3column insignia) in ROTJ! If you would only open your eyes in this kind of things instead of minute, non-important details nobody will care about.

It's like saying "Oh come on, why couldn't Palpatine be a wookie? He may not look like a wookie, but they could have made a mistake."

If you want to claim that canon events are not what they look like, I suggest you back up your claim with a bit more than presenting some unfinished, barely thought out opinions. When you do, remember that each piece of evidence only goes as far as the actual example. I could go on much longer regarding this topic, but I fear that I may have already passed your reading comprehension, since you have displayed ignorance of my previous post.

Hah, just what I expect from someone like you. Using information completely out-of-the-world. I mentioned minor mistakes, just in case you guess what I have been trying to hint at.
The Emperor is a wookie, so, it might be a mistake analogy is a complete expression of your stupidity.

Ah, I did read the posts here. But what I've said covers the entire posts here in general. The 'oh, because using almighty science, I've found that the SSD couldn't blah blah' kind of messages here.

Of course, I do enjoy these things on the site, but I find using it to answer a question, and keep on insisting it is right, regardless of the fact that the director/film crew had no care about such scientic laws (except extremely basic ones...).

Oh, one last thing... don't leave lines between quotes, just in case you haven't notice the ugly gaps it makes between quotes and words.

Emperor Palpatine

Emperor Palpatine wrote: Oh, engine shift. Can you be so sure it is engine shift? It is not very clear, right? It can be a sound completely different from engine shift! Or it can be even the modellers goofing up, or it can be just noise not cleared from the original version when they made the special edition. Ah, you see? You gave the reason that it is because it is falling in a way not caused by gravity. And I still throw back the question: Do you think Lucas CARE if it is that scientifically correct? Sure, basic science, but there are some things nobody will ever care, unless Lucas' intention is to make a movie containing the most accurate calculations as well as completely true to science (except for the sound bit.) that people with nothing better to do can do the calculations.

Emperor Palpatine wrote: I just say why can't it be gravity? What I am asking is, why do you people dismiss it as gravity? Just because some science which Lucas probably (most definitely, actually.) don't follow explained otherwise? As i've said, you are taking this thing (suspension of disbelief) so seriously that you are using these things to explain stuff... for the last time: you're deceiving yourself into thinking you got the answer.

Just how dense are you? If we accept your mindset, it would mean we have to abandon logic, reasoning, science, common sense and analyzing and replace it with "it's just a movie". That in effect means we cannot make any - ANY - conclusions whatsoever about SW, since it obeys no laws and doesn't even pretend to simulate reality. THAT is the content of your asnine claim, even though you apparently doesn't even understand the conclusions of it. Either SW simulates most of the physical laws of our universe in order to create realism to such a degree that humans can relate to it, or you can abandon anything making sense regarding it whatsoever. There's no middle ground.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Reality... mind you, SW is a film. Read the above to see what answers I have got. The same here. Reality... hah. How do you suppose hyperdrives work? Lightsabres?

If an a tree falls on Endor does it fall to the ground or does it fly up into space? That's right, the little thing called realism. All movies are made to be watched by humans, and as such MUST relate to us in a way we can understand, or they're bizarre junk fit for the trashcan. THE PHYSICAL LAWS OF THE REAL WORLD MUST APPLY UNLESS DEMONSTRATED OTHERWISE. Got it now? Didn't think so.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:What about length of models and ships? And have you noticed the ISD under the SSD was not actually covered in shadow, even though it was clearly shown to be? You see? This is what I talk about when I say consistency.

You are confusing consistency errors with failure to simulate realism (aka fx errors). A consistency error is if Han is wearing a clean shirt one moment and a dirty one the next. (Cookie for anyone knowing the scene).

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Lack of evidence? Ask everyone here, and they would tell you it is wrong! WRONG! Admiral Piett has the wrong rank. Everyone has a rank of captain(or something similar, with a 2row3column insignia) in ROTJ! If you would only open your eyes in this kind of things instead of minute, non-important details nobody will care about.

Acutally, I'm perfectly aware of consistency errors in SW. I'm just not going to let you get away without providing the examples, i.e. doing your work for you. If you think that the number of red squares on Piett's chest is more important for the sake of realism than violating the basic laws of physics that are demonstrated to be in effect in the SW universe, then you are a lost cause.. and a lost case.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Hah, just what I expect from someone like you. Using information completely out-of-the-world. I mentioned minor mistakes, just in case you guess what I have been trying to hint at. The Emperor is a wookie, so, it might be a mistake analogy is a complete expression of your stupidity.

I don't even want to try to guess what you try to hint at. I have no wish to emulate your mindset. I have merely tried to show you the magnitude of error in your claim, but I can see that it was what I suspected from the beginning, a lost cause.

Emperor Palpatine wrote: Ah, I did read the posts here. But what I've said covers the entire posts here in general. The 'oh, because using almighty science, I've found that the SSD couldn't blah blah' kind of messages here.

Of course, I do enjoy these things on the site, but I find using it to answer a question, and keep on insisting it is right, regardless of the fact that the director/film crew had no care about such scientic laws (except extremely basic ones...).

So gravity isn't a basic scientifc law, eh? I'm leaving this topic. I feel more stupid after reading your paragraphs. Call it victory if you want. Even the gods fight in vain in some cases.

Emperor Palpatine wrote: Oh, one last thing... don't leave lines between quotes, just in case you haven't notice the ugly gaps it makes between quotes and words.

I made those intentionally, "pal". It's called readability. Look it up.

Argh!
SW will conform to basic laws of gravity, of course! Have I ever said something was wrong about this?

However, do you think the people are doing it right? Yes, they know about gravity and will conform to it in the movie (obviously), and yes, they might be trying to make it seem like gravity, but did it wrongly. That's all. I don't think they had a scientist on board that will tell them, "Hey, you wanted it to fall as if it were pulled by grav. right? That's not the way to do it." (maybe at least someone who bothers about such minute detail.) No, they don't. They think that was gravity acting on it and it will make the SSD fall that way, and hence, did it in the movie.

Don't you get it?! They will conform to gravity and other basic sciences, but did it wrongly that's all! It's like I filming two balls of diff. sizes throwing them down at the same height, and one landed before the other (without resistance.). I might have overlooked it or ignore it or simply don't care! Same here!

E.D.C.P
It is like I film two objects

quote="nightmare"]Here's my not-so-politically correct version:


INT REBEL CRUISER HOME ONE

ADMIRAL ACKBAR "We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that command ship."

CONTROLLER "Their shields are too strong! We'll never get through in time."

ADMIRAL ACKBAR "Then we have no choice. Shields double forward. Prepare for lightspeed."

INT COMMAND SHIP EXECUTOR

PIETT "They're going to ram us! Intensify forward firepower, I don't want anything to get through!"

CONTROLLER "It's too late!"

EXT ENDOR SPACE BATTLE

The damaged HOME ONE under fire from the EXECUTOR is closing in rapidly. Suddenly the Rebel Cruiser jumps to lightspeed and hits the huge Command Ship in a flash of light. Several close by Star Destroyers are caught in the explosion.[/quote]

That wouldn't work. In the ESB novel the Excecutor is rammed by three ISDs coming out of lightspeed. No damage to the Excecutor. (though the ISD's were vaped)

NecronLord wrote:That wouldn't work. In the ESB novel the Excecutor is rammed by three ISDs coming out of lightspeed. No damage to the Excecutor. (though the ISD's were vaped)

I'm aware of that. Here you have a much larger vessel ramming at hyperspeed. (The ISDs must have had less than lightspeed).

Actually, given that Home one is Five miles long, it should easily do the job. And the three Isd's did bring down the shields.

I am torn between keeping my word and stay out of the rest of the discussion with you, or to try one last time to make you see the light.. I pledge forgiveness, but I will try again.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Argh!
SW will conform to basic laws of gravity, of course! Have I ever said something was wrong about this?

Emperor Palpatine answering himself a few posts earlier wrote:You use basic laws of science to explain a movie not neccessarily following basic laws of science.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:However, do you think the people are doing it right?

1. The Executor does not fall straight - it turns at the same time as it dives into the DS2 at accelerating speed.

2. The acceleration rate is 6,481 times too fast to be 1 g fall. Yes, more than six thousand times too fast, and I have been extremely conservative here. You could easily double or even triple the number.

3. The ship makes a sound similar to the characteristic whine of ion engines increasing in pitch as it dives.

4. The novelization says that the Executor started to spin towards the DS2 but does not mention the reason.

5. The novelization mentions that the Executor had some maneuvering/control problems before it was attacked (credits to vakundok for points 4 and 5).

6. The DS2 has a maximum of 1 g gravity.

Because a) people can walk on it. b) Endor isn't sucked in. c) The DS2 orbits Endor and not the opposite. If we assume that artificial gravity is in effect and the mass of the DS2 is actually a complex number, then it would implode and endor would be sucked in the moment the artificial gravity failed - something that obviously didn't happen.

So yeah, I think they got it right. Again, above reasons is why it is impossible to be gravity. Not unlikely, but totally, totally impossible.

Support for your theory: None. Zip, zero, nada, nothing whatsoever.

All you have is "You use basic laws of science to explain a movie not neccessarily following basic laws of science." followed by "SW will conform to basic laws of gravity, of course!". So apparently, not even you support your theory anymore.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Yes, they know about gravity and will conform to it in the movie (obviously), and yes, they might be trying to make it seem like gravity, but did it wrongly. That's all. I don't think they had a scientist on board that will tell them, "Hey, you wanted it to fall as if it were pulled by grav. right? That's not the way to do it." (maybe at least someone who bothers about such minute detail.) No, they don't. They think that was gravity acting on it and it will make the SSD fall that way, and hence, did it in the movie.

Don't you get it?! They will conform to gravity and other basic sciences, but did it wrongly that's all! It's like I filming two balls of diff. sizes throwing them down at the same height, and one landed before the other (without resistance.). I might have overlooked it or ignore it or simply don't care! Same here!

You still don't get the magnitude of the realism break you suggest. It's not similar to two balls of different size falling at different speed in vacuum. It's similar to two balls of different size falling and one of them suddenly turns into a pizza and is eaten by the other.

You still don't get what I'm trying to say, don't you?

1) Do you think the producers will care whether the SSD will fall correctly even if they meant it to be gravity? The SSD is hung on by strings. They could have done it deliberately to give it a nice effect, that's all.

2) You use figures to explain. But would the producers actually try to make sure it seem to be accurate? Just a general example. Yes, things will conform to real-life physics because they're real. But the SSD's falling effect is done by human hands, but as if it was let to fall naturally.

3) And what makes you think the producers will bother about having the DS2 implode? Do you think they even know such a thing exist?

This isn't a sci-fi movie full of techno jargon. SW written by a single man. He wouldn't be expected to know whether gravity will cause the SSD to fall this way or that! Don't you get it?

I am torn between keeping my word and stay out of the rest of the discussion with you, or to try one last time to make you see the light.. I pledge forgiveness, but I will try again.

Well, this thread was dormant for some time, but you just have to dig it up. But if you want to reply, I'll be here to offer a rebuttal (unless the mods locked this thread like the other one.).

E.D.C.P

WJTW

nightmare, I was not the one who agreed to the gravity theory. Apparently, you haven't read my first few messages.

I was saying, why were you so sure it was engine misfire? Based on science, which I have already said would not be totally conformed by model spacecrafts made[/b to crash into things. Note the word 'made'. Not naturally. [Read previous post/above post for my actual message.]

As mentioned, I don't think the crew would have a scientist telling them this part of their physics is wrong, those parts are wrong, etc.

I've read some of those the articles and calculations (*edit* calculations on the stardestroyer.net site.), and it seem the amount of energy used by the Empire's fleet is too large to be really possible. Well, did the producers deliberate do this, or just do it for the sake of effects and visuals?
Of course... the SW galaxy's impossible might not be our impossible...

BTW, how did you know that the DS' gravity was 1g? Any actual sources (other than your calcs, which is just that, your calcs, nothing more, nothing less.)

*Edit 2* The official site did mention about it being 'embraced by the DS2's gravity well.' However, I doubt it will hold water here, since the site has been known to make mistakes. But if normal people doing the site can mistake that as gravity, what makes you think the production crew's model animators wouldn't?
And no, I'm not supporting this gravity thing. Just asking 'why not?'.


E. Palpatine

Emperor Palpatine wrote:You still don't get what I'm trying to say, don't you?

1) Do you think the producers will care whether the SSD will fall correctly even if they meant it to be gravity? The SSD is hung on by strings. They could have done it deliberately to give it a nice effect, that's all.

2) You use figures to explain. But would the producers actually try to make sure it seem to be accurate? Just a general example. Yes, things will conform to real-life physics because they're real. But the SSD's falling effect is done by human hands, but as if it was let to fall naturally.

3) And what makes you think the producers will bother about having the DS2 implode? Do you think they even know such a thing exist?

The producers don't care much... but this entire site is about suspension of disbelief. We try to find in-universe explanations for everything.

Mildly on topic: Does this looks like an SSD to any of you?

3rd Impact wrote:Mildly on topic: Does this looks like an SSD to any of you?

yep it has rough resemblence

The producers don't care much... but this entire site is about suspension of disbelief. We try to find in-universe explanations for everything.

Err, ok.
The articles are interesting, good read. After reading through one of it about the length of the SSD, I just can't imagine how anyone (like the authors.) could have thought it was 5 miles. I like the 17.6 KM length more.

Wouldn't argue here. Getting way off topic. I think I'm just getting annoyed at the attitude of some of them. Can't answer or reply nicely to people questioning their beliefs or something.

E.Palpatine

3rd Impact wrote:Mildly on topic: Does this looks like an SSD to any of you?

Kind of, it reminds me of several of the various Imperial capital ship and SSD sketches Saxton has up.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:nightmare, I was not the one who agreed to the gravity theory. Apparently, you haven't read my first few messages.

I did. It said "Oh, why can't it be gravity?" among other things.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:I was saying, why were you so sure it was engine misfire? Based on science, which I have already said would not be totally conformed by model spacecrafts made[/b to crash into things. Note the word 'made'. Not naturally. [Read previous post/above post for my actual message.]

No other explanation is possible unless you invent unseen and unexplained mechanisms. I.e. magic.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:As mentioned, I don't think the crew would have a scientist telling them this part of their physics is wrong, those parts are wrong, etc.

I've read some of those the articles and calculations (*edit* calculations on the stardestroyer.net site.), and it seem the amount of energy used by the Empire's fleet is too large to be really possible. Well, did the producers deliberate do this, or just do it for the sake of effects and visuals? Of course... the SW galaxy's impossible might not be our impossible...

BTW, how did you know that the DS' gravity was 1g? Any actual sources (other than your calcs, which is just that, your calcs, nothing more, nothing less.)

Basic newtonian mechanics, no calcs needed. 1) It was orbiting Endor's moon, which can't have a gravity much different from 1g since people can walk on it without problem. If the DS had larger gravity than Endor's moon, it would be the moon orbiting the DS.

2) The people abord the DS was also walking around without trouble, hence it must be within human standards (assuming the surface gravity was actually the result of the mass of the DS).

In other words, it would break basic in-universe reality again if the DS2 had high gravity. Personally, I would say that the DS gravitational force is much less than 1g, ~0.1-0.05, unless you start to consider possible things that we have no absolute knowledge of, such as complex mass reactor core and thickness of possible neutronium armour, etc.

However, you seem to want an official statement of some kind saying "The Death Star's gravitational force is 1g". There's no such thing, and it's not needed. The canon movies display this limit more than adequately.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:*Edit 2* The official site did mention about it being 'embraced by the DS2's gravity well.' However, I doubt it will hold water here, since the site has been known to make mistakes. But if normal people doing the site can mistake that as gravity, what makes you think the production crew's model animators wouldn't? And no, I'm not supporting this gravity thing. Just asking 'why not?'.

One doesn't exclude the other. The Executor could have been in the DS2's gravity well. It just wouldn't be strong enough to make it crash within an hour or so.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:You still don't get what I'm trying to say, don't you?

1) Do you think the producers will care whether the SSD will fall correctly even if they meant it to be gravity? The SSD is hung on by strings. They could have done it deliberately to give it a nice effect, that's all.

2) You use figures to explain. But would the producers actually try to make sure it seem to be accurate? Just a general example. Yes, things will conform to real-life physics because they're real. But the SSD's falling effect is done by human hands, but as if it was let to fall naturally.

3) And what makes you think the producers will bother about having the DS2 implode? Do you think they even know such a thing exist?[/quiote]

Yes, I know what you are trying to say. You didn't get what I'm trying to say though; it's totally meaningless to debate any movies under your presumption, since it invalidates everything by default. You have chalk up anything to "they just made it like that, it doesn't have to make sense". That makes all subjects meaningless. In other words, it's a must prerequisite that you use the "it's just a movie" copout as little as possible. This is what suspension of disbelief is all about. It's not a preference, it's the only way to discuss the movies in any form of in-universe perspective.

nightmare wrote:

NecronLord wrote:That wouldn't work. In the ESB novel the Excecutor is rammed by three ISDs coming out of lightspeed. No damage to the Excecutor. (though the ISD's were vaped)

I'm aware of that. Here you have a much larger vessel ramming at hyperspeed. (The ISDs must have had less than lightspeed).

Funny, I could have sworn that that scene was from the Marvel comics, and not anywhere in the novelisation...

3rd Impact wrote:Mildly on topic: Does this looks like an SSD to any of you?

The giant uknown ship from homeworld 2 concept art.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

nightmare wrote:

NecronLord wrote:That wouldn't work. In the ESB novel the Excecutor is rammed by three ISDs coming out of lightspeed. No damage to the Excecutor. (though the ISD's were vaped)

I'm aware of that. Here you have a much larger vessel ramming at hyperspeed. (The ISDs must have had less than lightspeed).

Funny, I could have sworn that that scene was from the Marvel comics, and not anywhere in the novelisation...

No, it was from the Archie Goodwin comics (they covered the time period between ANH and TESB) It was NOT in either Marvel or the novelization.