29th Century Federation vs. Galactic Empire(Split)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-20 11:17pm

Eframepilot wrote:

Nah. Most of those parallel universes had minor differences like Worf seeing someone at a party who said they weren't coming. They were all due to the Many Worlds theory of quantum wave function collapse, or at least the common sci-fi misinterpretation of it.[/quote]
Oh really! And how do you know what caused those parallel universes to exist in Star Trek?

Again, nah. Every time we see someone about to try to change time, Starfleet wants to stop them. Starfleet pretty clearly believes that every change in time makes a new timeline that displaces the old one, which ceases to exist.

And how would they know that to be true, since a replacement of the timeline would be undetectable? More to the point, why is this ability never used in war?

Ethics may be a silly explanation, but it is the best one.

"Best" based on what? Your desire for it to be so? The history of warfare has shown that when their backs are to the wall, humans will do anything to stave off defeat or achieve victory. The idea that they restrict themselves to "ethics" (while simultaneously developing genocidal bioweapons) is simply laughable.

Starfleet sees time travel as making changes to the past in every instance of it. Your explanation is less valid.

You have not explained why it is less valid other than to interpret motive behind Starfleet's actions (which you presume to be based on ethics rather than any other reason), and assume that they know exactly what happens in time travel.

A word about the 29th century Feds: Even without directly changing time, they own the Empire. They have nearly instantaneous travel to anywhere in the galaxy and can destroy entire systems with unstable spatial rifts. That's mutually assured destruction against the Empire at a minimum.

Have we observed their warfaring capability in action, or are we going on characters' descriptions of it? I don't watch much Voyager; the only 29th century tech I am aware of is that mobile holo-emitter. I was speaking more about time travel in general.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-20 11:18pm

That's nitpicking, and basically voids every single movie/show where there was any amount of time travel. Sci-Fi time-travel needs _major_ tampering with the past to alter anything at all. But I agree that if time-travel was a reality, the simple act of grabbing a spoon and placing it ten cm away could potentially alter the past greatly.

Even having sex on a different day (hour? second?) would produce a different baby.

Nitpicking? Yes. However it is also the truth. The whole moral justification for sending the CD back in time is to preserve the current descendants. If the CD crew knows they are just spinning off a divergent timeline ... then it seems awfully shallow to force Kira to die just so they can create yet another set of descendants who aren't even going to be this set. Either they don't get the many worlds intrepretation or they are acting stupid.

I don't remember the Odo sabotage part. Why did he do it? Because he lost Kyra or something? I thought they simply passed thru the anomaly without any effect...
Not according to the synopsis at startrek.com. Maybe Mike can give us the relevant portion of the script, but Odo is in love with Kira ... whom will die if she get's stranded on the planet (she visits her own grave earlier in the episode). So the old Odo hacks the computer and diverts the CD away from the anomoly ... time changes for NO reason.

Indeed, your own logic contradicts you: you claim that Starfleet knows more about time travel than we do, so they wouldn't do something pointless. Well, it's not pointless to try to get into a timeline which resembles the one you left, particularly when the change seems undesirable to you. But it is pointless to try to win a war by sending a ship into the past, since it won't affect the source timeline. And guess what they don't do in wars, eg- against the Dominion or the Borg; they DON'T SEND SHIPS INTO THE PAST TO WIN THEM. Why not, hmmmm? Could it be that they know something you don't?
Could it be that time travel is an inherently chaotic function? That in an attempt to rewrite the war to win against the Dominium they may end up screwing the timeline up very seriously (like oh say having the Romulans join the Dominion forces). Voyager had a two part episode on this ... that time travel can have unintended side effects which in the case of one species resulted in their near annihilation.

Only a rank idiot/desperate man would use time travel to effect change unless they had a damn good idea how the intervention would pan out. I.e. you go back in time to kill Hitler, you accidently sneeze on a friend of friend of friend of ... the Kennedy family. This infection passes up the chain and yes you have no Hitler, but you have no Kennedy so Nixon ends up in the Whitehouse during the Cuban Missile crisis ... the cold war goes hot and history completely unravels towards no UFP ever existing.

Time travel would be a lot like biological weapons ... damn effective at wiping out the enemy but potentially lethal to you and your allies as well. One good explanation why time travel isn't used to correct minor plot problems is that it might be too dangerous and the risk outweighs the potential benifits except for the most egregious of situations.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 12:48am

Darth Wong wrote:Oh really! And how do you know what caused those parallel universes to exist in Star Trek?

Turning the question around, how do you know? The Many Worlds quantum theory explains why the universes with trivial differences exist. Certainly no time traveler will want to change the place Worf comes in a martial arts tournament. There is absolutely no reason to connect the existence of the parallel universes with time travel.

And how would they know that to be true, since a replacement of the timeline would be undetectable?

Two possible answers:
1. Their technobabble theories of time travel explain that the original timeline vanishes.
2. They don't know. Starfleet (and Annorax and everyone else) are just guessing. But they still believe in replacement, as shown by the very existence of the Temporal Prime Directive and the Temporal Cold War.
(snip)

"Best" based on what? Your desire for it to be so? The history of warfare has shown that when their backs are to the wall, humans will do anything to stave off defeat or achieve victory. The idea that they restrict themselves to "ethics" (while simultaneously developing genocidal bioweapons) is simply laughable.

Starfleet does a lot of things that seem simply laughable. But you're right, ethics is not necessarily the "best" theory. There are others. Starfleet may suffer from selective amnesia when it comes to time travel. Q may remove all thoughts of time travel from the minds of the Feds (except the main characters, because he likes them) because he doesn't like his past history being constantly messed with. All of these theories are better than yours, however, as they allow the Temporal Prime Directive to exist. Your theory cannot explain why Starfleet is so eager to stop anyone from changing the past.

You have not explained why it is less valid other than to interpret motive behind Starfleet's actions (which you presume to be based on ethics rather than any other reason), and assume that they know exactly what happens in time travel.

I'm actually not assuming that the Feds know exactly what happens in time travel. They may (I am currently arguing) be wrong. But Starfleet still believes in the replacement timeline or else they would NOT have any TPD and would NOT care about any changes to the 22nd century the Suliban try to make. The burden of proof for your theory of why Starfleet neglects time travel in wartime is on you. Your theory has to explain why they have the TPD, something they should see no need for otherwise.

A word about the 29th century Feds: Even without directly changing time, they own the Empire. They have nearly instantaneous travel to anywhere in the galaxy and can destroy entire systems with unstable spatial rifts. That's mutually assured destruction against the Empire at a minimum.
Have we observed their warfaring capability in action, or are we going on characters' descriptions of it? I don't watch much Voyager; the only 29th century tech I am aware of is that mobile holo-emitter. I was speaking more about time travel in general.

From "Future's End", we learn that small shuttle-sized ships can create temporal rifts across centuries of time and thousands of parsecs (at least) of space. Any temporal rift could be used for instantaneous space travel as well as time travel. Also, an unstable rift could accidentally destroy a solar system. Preventing Earth's destruction by this method was the point of the episode. We don't actually see it occur, but Braxton witnessed it and Kim believed it to be possible. Naturally, unstable rifts could be used to intentionally destroy star systems as well. It is MAD for the Empire, at best.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-21 12:54am

Are you guys saying that the Federation would rather lose a war to a totalitarian state, suffering massive casualties to the civilian population on the way, then send a ship back in time to protect the timeline? Seriously, ethics cannot be a reason for the Federation's non-use of time travel in the Dominion War. Also, they won the frickin' war, anyway. Why can't they send ships back in time to prevent some of the disasters that resulted in unnecessary loss of life (ie. Chintoka, Sisko's foolish attack on Dominion lines when they were trying to retake DS9, etc.) If they were really not going back in time for moral reasons, they should have gone back in time after the war to help avoid such pointless loss of life on the part of both sides.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 01:46am

Master of Ossus wrote:Are you guys saying that the Federation would rather lose a war to a totalitarian state, suffering massive casualties to the civilian population on the way, then send a ship back in time to protect the timeline? Seriously, ethics cannot be a reason for the Federation's non-use of time travel in the Dominion War. Also, they won the frickin' war, anyway. Why can't they send ships back in time to prevent some of the disasters that resulted in unnecessary loss of life (ie. Chintoka, Sisko's foolish attack on Dominion lines when they were trying to retake DS9, etc.) If they were really not going back in time for moral reasons, they should have gone back in time after the war to help avoid such pointless loss of life on the part of both sides.

There isn't any good explanation why Starfleet doesn't use time travel more often. There just isn't. Clearly they believe it is possible to change history, as shown by the existence of the TPD and the Temporal Cold War. Yet they never use this in war, to our knowledge. Maybe intentionally changing the past is such a horrible taboo that it is only violated by insane maniacs like Arne Darvin of Tribble fame and future Kim and Janeway. Do you have a better explanation, keeping in mind that the TPD shows Starfleet believes the past changeable?

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-09-21 01:48am

The reason why time travel is prohibited is clearly shown in "Shockwave." Daniels caused the Federation to never exist while trying to stop the Suliban.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 02:07am

Shadow wrote:The reason why time travel is prohibited is clearly shown in "Shockwave." Daniels caused the Federation to never exist while trying to stop the Suliban.

Fortunately this wouldn't apply to interfering with the Empire's history. Changes in the SW galaxy would not affect the Trek galaxy (aasumedly), so the 29th cent. Feds could hack and slash SW history all they wanted to get the proper result (no expansionist totalitarian regime headed by a Sith Lord who is evil incarnate).

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 09:13am

Turning the question around, how do you know? The Many Worlds quantum theory explains why the universes with trivial differences exist. Certainly no time traveler will want to change the place Worf comes in a martial arts tournament.

What about the guy who lost to him?

There is absolutely no reason to connect the existence of the parallel universes with time travel.

Except Star Trek gives us these connections!
I again refer you to Captain Braxton as one example, there's one who experienced exile on 20th century Earth and one who didn't, but BOTH exist in their own timelines.

Starfleet does a lot of things that seem simply laughable. But you're right, ethics is not necessarily the "best" theory. There are others. Starfleet may suffer from selective amnesia when it comes to time travel. Q may remove all thoughts of time travel from the minds of the Feds (except the main characters, because he likes them) because he doesn't like his past history being constantly messed with. All of these theories are better than yours, however, as they allow the Temporal Prime Directive to exist.

You complain about other theories yet you say that Q removes their urge to time travel? GIVE ME A BREAK.

Your theory cannot explain why Starfleet is so eager to stop anyone from changing the past.

I have a theory: They're idiots. They don't know what they're doing.

I'm actually not assuming that the Feds know exactly what happens in time travel. They may (I am currently arguing) be wrong. But Starfleet still believes in the replacement timeline or else they would NOT have any TPD and would NOT care about any changes to the 22nd century the Suliban try to make. The burden of proof for your theory of why Starfleet neglects time travel in wartime is on you. Your theory has to explain why they have the TPD, something they should see no need for otherwise.

What they believe is irrelevant, what happens is what matters.
They are simply wrong, they waste resources on a futile effort.
STARFLEET IS NOT OMNIPOTENT, far from it, they get almost everything else wrong, why would they get this right?

From "Future's End", we learn that small shuttle-sized ships can create temporal rifts across centuries of time and thousands of parsecs (at least) of space. Any temporal rift could be used for instantaneous space travel as well as time travel.

All we have is evidence that they can time travel from a point in the Alpha Quadrant to a point in the Delta, nothing about normal instantaneous travel, and certainly nothing about intergalactic travel.

Also, an unstable rift could accidentally destroy a solar system. Preventing Earth's destruction by this method was the point of the episode. We don't actually see it occur, but Braxton witnessed it and Kim believed it to be possible. Naturally, unstable rifts could be used to intentionally destroy star systems as well. It is MAD for the Empire, at best.

That involves TIME TRAVEL, and you haven't proven that it's a solid time-line in the face of all the opposing evidence.
Remember, the rift caused destruction at it's destination, not at it's point of origin (1996), therefore it's the same time travel cop-out.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 09:18am

STARFLEET IS NOT OMNIPOTENT, far from it, they get almost everything else wrong, why would they get this right?

Uh, omniscient I mean

The reason why time travel is prohibited is clearly shown in "Shockwave." Daniels caused the Federation to never exist while trying to stop the Suliban.

Which is why they let any bozo on a school trip go back to ancient Egypt and look at the pyramids?

Fortunately this wouldn't apply to interfering with the Empire's history. Changes in the SW galaxy would not affect the Trek galaxy (aasumedly), so the 29th cent. Feds could hack and slash SW history all they wanted to get the proper result (no expansionist totalitarian regime headed by a Sith Lord who is evil incarnate).

Yeah, maybe they'll screw up and bring forth an even worse regime that has the capability of incinerating galaxies (and I don't mean the ship class..)

This is starting to sound really childish "oh we can screw your past up good".
Whatever.
You have not come close to proving it's a solid time-line, and even if it was, Annorax's antics showed it's VERY difficult to get the desired result no matter what you do.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 12:31pm

Evil Jerk wrote:
Turning the question around, how do you know? The Many Worlds quantum theory explains why the universes with trivial differences exist. Certainly no time traveler will want to change the place Worf comes in a martial arts tournament.
What about the guy who lost to him?

Oh yes, he must have been so disappointed he traveled back to fix the results. And Counselor Troi was so obsessed with Worf that she traveled back in time and married him. And Geordi was so upset about missing Worf's party that he traveled back...

No, most of the universes we saw differed by trivial changes. Time travel would not cause these changes.

There is absolutely no reason to connect the existence of the parallel universes with time travel.
Except Star Trek gives us these connections!
I again refer you to Captain Braxton as one example, there's one who experienced exile on 20th century Earth and one who didn't, but BOTH exist in their own timelines.

No, multiple Braxtons existed in the same timeline. In "Future's End", there was the old, screwy one and the young, confused one who didn't know what was going on. But they must have been "merged" because there was just one in the start of "Relativity". The three Braxtons in "Relativity" are merged. Multiple Braxtons do exist, but there is no evidence that separate timelines "exist". ("Parallels" does NOT show alternate timelines, but parallel "quantum" universes.)

Starfleet does a lot of things that seem simply laughable. But you're right, ethics is not necessarily the "best" theory. There are others. Starfleet may suffer from selective amnesia when it comes to time travel. Q may remove all thoughts of time travel from the minds of the Feds (except the main characters, because he likes them) because he doesn't like his past history being constantly messed with. All of these theories are better than yours, however, as they allow the Temporal Prime Directive to exist.
You complain about other theories yet you say that Q removes their urge to time travel? GIVE ME A BREAK.

My point is that your theory can't explain why there is a temporal prime directive, or why Enterprise is experiencing a Temporal Cold War. If Starfleet believes that time cannot be changed, then these things should not exist! But they do, so Starfleet believes time CAN be changed. Their reason for failing to change time during the Dominion War is irrelevant.

Your theory cannot explain why Starfleet is so eager to stop anyone from changing the past.
I have a theory: They're idiots. They don't know what they're doing.

Okay, sure. They're idiots. BUT THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT TIME CAN BE CHANGED! It is consistent in every time travel episode that they worry about screwing up the future! Even before someone else has tried to go back, like "Timeless"!

I'm actually not assuming that the Feds know exactly what happens in time travel. They may (I am currently arguing) be wrong. But Starfleet still believes in the replacement timeline or else they would NOT have any TPD and would NOT care about any changes to the 22nd century the Suliban try to make. The burden of proof for your theory of why Starfleet neglects time travel in wartime is on you. Your theory has to explain why they have the TPD, something they should see no need for otherwise.
What they believe is irrelevant, what happens is what matters.
They are simply wrong, they waste resources on a futile effort.
STARFLEET IS NOT OMNIPOTENT, far from it, they get almost everything else wrong, why would they get this right?

So you agree that they believe time can be changed? That is all I am currently arguing.

From "Future's End", we learn that small shuttle-sized ships can create temporal rifts across centuries of time and thousands of parsecs (at least) of space. Any temporal rift could be used for instantaneous space travel as well as time travel.
All we have is evidence that they can time travel from a point in the Alpha Quadrant to a point in the Delta, nothing about normal instantaneous travel, and certainly nothing about intergalactic travel.

(sigh) Logically, if you can travel from any time anywhere in the galaxy to any other time anywhere else, you can travel to any place but the same time you left.

Also, an unstable rift could accidentally destroy a solar system. Preventing Earth's destruction by this method was the point of the episode. We don't actually see it occur, but Braxton witnessed it and Kim believed it to be possible. Naturally, unstable rifts could be used to intentionally destroy star systems as well. It is MAD for the Empire, at best.
That involves TIME TRAVEL, and you haven't proven that it's a solid time-line in the face of all the opposing evidence.
Remember, the rift caused destruction at it's destination, not at it's point of origin (1996), therefore it's the same time travel cop-out.

Bah. Wait and see.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 12:42pm

Oh yes, he must have been so disappointed he traveled back to fix the results.

You know, Klingons, to lose is dishonour, blah blah blah, it could well happen and you know it.

And Counselor Troi was so obsessed with Worf that she traveled back in time and married him. And Geordi was so upset about missing Worf's party that he traveled back...

No, most of the universes we saw differed by trivial changes. Time travel would not cause these changes.

Who's to say that some aren't just variations?
A new universe could never be created by time travel if it wasn't possible naturally, the two methods are not mutually exclusive.

No, multiple Braxtons existed in the same timeline. In "Future's End", there was the old, screwy one and the young, confused one who didn't know what was going on. But they must have been "merged" because there was just one in the start of "Relativity". The three Braxtons in "Relativity" are merged. Multiple Braxtons do exist, but there is no evidence that separate timelines "exist". ("Parallels" does NOT show alternate timelines, but parallel "quantum" universes.)

The old Braxton shouldn't exist to be merged then! He was not protected, if the timeline was erased, he should've gone *poof!*, the fact that he did exist and went on to be rescued while another Braxton was around shows us multiple timelines.

My point is that your theory can't explain why there is a temporal prime directive, or why Enterprise is experiencing a Temporal Cold War. If Starfleet believes that time cannot be changed, then these things should not exist! But they do, so Starfleet believes time CAN be changed. Their reason for failing to change time during the Dominion War is irrelevant.

No it isn't, they believe time can be changed, but they may fear it's too dangerous. Changing time is NEVER predictable.

Okay, sure. They're idiots. BUT THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT TIME CAN BE CHANGED! It is consistent in every time travel episode that they worry about screwing up the future! Even before someone else has tried to go back, like "Timeless"!

What they believe is irrelevant, it will affect nothing.

So you agree that they believe time can be changed? That is all I am currently arguing.

Yes, a lot of them believe it if nothing else than because of their arrogance. But as I say, they may not want to risk things, even altering far away history can have unwanted effects.

(sigh) Logically, if you can travel from any time anywhere in the galaxy to any other time anywhere else, you can travel to any place but the same time you left.

Unless the actual time travel provides some special means to do so, still as I said, no proof of intergalactic travel by any means.

Bah. Wait and see.

Wait and see what?

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 12:50pm

Evil Jerk wrote:
STARFLEET IS NOT OMNIPOTENT, far from it, they get almost This is starting to sound really childish "oh we can screw your past up good".
"oh we can BDZ all your planets real good" Takes one to know one!

Whatever.
You have not come close to proving it's a solid time-line, and even if it was, Annorax's antics showed it's VERY difficult to get the desired result no matter what you do.

All right, let's start over. We will look at the 29th and 31st century Feds (and ignore the primitive, delusional 23rd and 24th cent. Starfleet). To them, time travel is common (high schoolers do it). They believe that time travel can change the past (i.e. alternate timelines REPLACE the original).

IF your theory was right and all time travelers into the past "disappeared" from the main timeline, then the 29th century Feds, who time travel constantly, would have observed this. They would notice that all of their operatives, historians, and teenagers were vanishing and not coming back; likewise, history was not changing. And every travel WOULD produce an alternate time line: one where the traveler was present in the past.

BUT! They don't see all of their travelers vanishing. They continue to send people back, who continue to return. Occasionally something will go horribly horribly wrong, but that's par the course in Star Trek.

Therefore, not only do the 29th and 31st cent. Feds believe that timelines are replaced by changed ones, they are RIGHT. The argument of time travel's scarcity in the 24th century does not apply to the 29th and onward! If travelers disappeared, then with their frequent travel it would have been observed. The Future Feds do not see this. Time CAN be changed, and with their expertise, it WILL be.

As for the Feds' ability to prevent the Empire's existence, how hard can it be? As we learned from TPM and AOTC, the Empire came into existence because Darth Sidious manipulated everyone. So the Feds can find a time when he is chilling in his quarters with Darth Maul and beam a bomb to him or something. He can't possibly escape dedicated time traveling assassins who can show up anywhere, anytime. Hell, he could just be disintegrated via transporter from several centuries away.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 01:02pm

"oh we can BDZ all your planets real good" Takes one to know one!

Hell, at least that doesn't involve cheating by time travel, that involves raw power and speed, what warfare is about.

All right, let's start over. We will look at the 29th and 31st century Feds (and ignore the primitive, delusional 23rd and 24th cent. Starfleet). To them, time travel is common (high schoolers do it). They believe that time travel can change the past (i.e. alternate timelines REPLACE the original).

IF your theory was right and all time travelers into the past "disappeared" from the main timeline, then the 29th century Feds, who time travel constantly, would have observed this. They would notice that all of their operatives, historians, and teenagers were vanishing and not coming back; likewise, history was not changing. And every travel WOULD produce an alternate time line: one where the traveler was present in the past.

Assuming that their people constantly changed the past, and they might put down the occasional dissapearance to common accidents or something.

BUT! They don't see all of their travelers vanishing. They continue to send people back, who continue to return. Occasionally something will go horribly horribly wrong, but that's par the course in Star Trek.

Therefore, not only do the 29th and 31st cent. Feds believe that timelines are replaced by changed ones, they are RIGHT. The argument of time travel's scarcity in the 24th century does not apply to the 29th and onward! If travelers disappeared, then with their frequent travel it would have been observed. The Future Feds do not see this. Time CAN be changed, and with their expertise, it WILL be.

You're assuming they change history and create a new timeline JUST BY BEING THERE, that's illogical to the extreme.

As for the Feds' ability to prevent the Empire's existence, how hard can it be? As we learned from TPM and AOTC, the Empire came into existence because Darth Sidious manipulated everyone. So the Feds can find a time when he is chilling in his quarters with Darth Maul and beam a bomb to him or something. He can't possibly escape dedicated time traveling assassins who can show up anywhere, anytime. Hell, he could just be disintegrated via transporter from several centuries away.

And AGAIN, WHAT'S TO STOP SOMEBODY EVEN WORSE FROM TAKING HIS PLACE?

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 01:03pm

Oh yes, and who is going to give them all this intimate knowledge of Star Wars history before the Empire kills them all?

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 01:42pm

Evil Jerk wrote:
Assuming that their people constantly changed the past, and they might put down the occasional dissapearance to common accidents or something.
No, explained below.

BUT! They don't see all of their travelers vanishing. They continue to send people back, who continue to return. Occasionally something will go horribly horribly wrong, but that's par the course in Star Trek.

Therefore, not only do the 29th and 31st cent. Feds believe that timelines are replaced by changed ones, they are RIGHT. The argument of time travel's scarcity in the 24th century does not apply to the 29th and onward! If travelers disappeared, then with their frequent travel it would have been observed. The Future Feds do not see this. Time CAN be changed, and with their expertise, it WILL be.
You're assuming they change history and create a new timeline JUST BY BEING THERE, that's illogical to the extreme.

No it isn't. Every travel will create a new timeline, as I explained earlier. The change is that the traveler is present. What is the threshold you believe should create/change a timeline?

As for the Feds' ability to prevent the Empire's existence, how hard can it be? As we learned from TPM and AOTC, the Empire came into existence because Darth Sidious manipulated everyone. So the Feds can find a time when he is chilling in his quarters with Darth Maul and beam a bomb to him or something. He can't possibly escape dedicated time traveling assassins who can show up anywhere, anytime. Hell, he could just be disintegrated via transporter from several centuries away.

And AGAIN, WHAT'S TO STOP SOMEBODY EVEN WORSE FROM TAKING HIS PLACE?[/quote]

Who is around that is worse? There are only two Sith Lords. If both of them die, then no Sith. No Sith, no Machiavellian scheme manipulating the Trade Federation, Kaminoans, etc. and thus, no Empire. The Empire didn't arise naturally, it was engineered by one single individual. Without him, the Empire would vanish as thoroughly as the Federation did without Archer (except infinitely more so, since Palpatine was brilliant and Archer is a tool).

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 01:44pm

Evil Jerk wrote:Oh yes, and who is going to give them all this intimate knowledge of Star Wars history before the Empire kills them all?

They don't need intimate knowledge. They just need to know the Emperor's name. Then all they have to do is travel back and kill him. They can travel in time and space at will, so they could easily escape the Empire. Only one ship is neede.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 02:23pm

No it isn't. Every travel will create a new timeline, as I explained earlier. The change is that the traveler is present. What is the threshold you believe should create/change a timeline?

An actual CHANGE.
Someone's presence alone won't cut it, also, ever heard of predestination?

Who is around that is worse? There are only two Sith Lords. If both of them die, then no Sith. No Sith, no Machiavellian scheme manipulating the Trade Federation, Kaminoans, etc. and thus, no Empire. The Empire didn't arise naturally, it was engineered by one single individual. Without him, the Empire would vanish as thoroughly as the Federation did without Archer (except infinitely more so, since Palpatine was brilliant and Archer is a tool).

And what if somebody worse than Palpy whom the Emperor got rid of before he became powerful appears, he becomes powerful, forms a super-empire and develops galaxy incinerating weapons.
ANY NUMBER OF THINGS COULD HAPPEN.

They don't need intimate knowledge. They just need to know the Emperor's name. Then all they have to do is travel back and kill him.

His name? Without knowing his history, where he lived, what he did, all of that? Yeah right.
If you didn't know jack about Hitler except his name, how would you go about killing him in the present, let alone the past.

They can travel in time and space at will, so they could easily escape the Empire. Only one ship is neede.

Prove it.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 02:31pm

Correct me if im Wrong but cant they scan time? so they just scan the future and they know exactly where the empire is going to be (where it will attack etc) so the entire Federation fleet (galaxy sized Federation) can engage every single Imp attack.

Of course without knowing more about their shield etc this could be a problem (although I like the Teleport a torp into the future idea).

Even without the lets go back in time and destroy the empire idea (whih I see no reason why it wouldnt work) the 29th Century Feds arent to be messed with.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 02:37pm

Correct me if im Wrong but cant they scan time? so they just scan the future and they know exactly where the empire is going to be (where it will attack etc) so the entire Federation fleet (galaxy sized Federation) can engage every single Imp attack.

No, they scan temporal incursions and differences in time.

Even without the lets go back in time and destroy the empire idea (whih I see no reason why it wouldnt work) the 29th Century Feds arent to be messed with.

Without their time travel copout they are nothing, their fighters get pasted by 500 year old ships.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 02:42pm

Quote:
Correct me if im Wrong but cant they scan time? so they just scan the future and they know exactly where the empire is going to be (where it will attack etc) so the entire Federation fleet (galaxy sized Federation) can engage every single Imp attack.

No, they scan temporal incursions and differences in time.

Oh, and I should add that they don't do it very well, they didn't stop the Borg, Janeway or the Evil Pickle Men (Suliban) in their temporal antics.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 02:45pm

Ah I see their one man fighters get taken out by a 500 year old ship.

Well the 24th Feds are 25,000 years younger than the empire and a Galaxy class could ake on a tie - guess that means the empire is nothing

It was a shuttle and it still nearly differented Voyager which only escaped due to a combo of technobabble and the mopst unholy character shielding system know to man.

Also Im pretty sure braxton said they scanned time and found Voyager in the DQ and thought it was odd (they found Voyager by scanning time - it wasnt a temporal incursion).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 02:47pm

The Borg got stopped and they do know about the Suliban in fact have you even watcherd Enterprise? I dnt blame you if you havent but dnot comment on it unless you have seen it.

As for Janeway they probably decided to give her a wide berth.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 02:49pm

Ah I see their one man fighters get taken out by a 500 year old ship.

Well the 24th Feds are 25,000 years younger than the empire and a Galaxy class could ake on a tie - guess that means the empire is nothing

Except the Aeon is obviously more than a simple swarm fighter like a TIE now, is it?

It was a shuttle and it still nearly differented Voyager which only escaped due to a combo of technobabble and the mopst unholy character shielding system know to man.

Doesn't matter, it still got taken down by outdated technology from it's own side

Also Im pretty sure braxton said they scanned time and found Voyager in the DQ and thought it was odd (they found Voyager by scanning time - it wasnt a temporal incursion).

Duh, yes it was. USS Voyager from the 24th century in 1996.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 02:51pm

TheDarkling wrote:The Borg got stopped[/i]

Not in the universe where the E-E didn't go back..

and they do know about the Suliban in fact have you even watcherd Enterprise? I dnt blame you if you havent but dnot comment on it unless you have seen it.
Some organization in the 31st century knows about them (and did a piss poor job in stopping them).
Nothing about the 29th century time cops..

As for Janeway they probably decided to give her a wide berth.

Yeah right.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 03:07pm

Duh this was before Voyager went back