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Ah yes. 'If you don't debate somethign where I can see it, you're part of the big conspiracy and are an identical drone!' stupidity. My presense in the thread was demanding you actually debate, little boy, not play bullshit games.

Of course, if I wanted to be an asshole(As I am, still and forever, the first SDnet Evil Warsie Asshole), I would demand you show what makes relativistic pebbles wrong from observations. But you've already shown yourself allergic to honest debating, so I will not.

Technically speaking, the incident with the trainees hurling a fleet of ISDs out of a star system is an example of Force users moving something at relativistic speeds, although I tend to avoid using that incident because it was a group action and probably required some extraordinary amount of concentration (hence preparation) which would not be feasible in a battle.

Away from Eframe's refusal to debate, I submit some info on Force TK for discussion. From WEG.

'Object may be moved at 10 meters per round; add +5 per additional 10 meters per round. The target must be in sight of the user.'

While partially game mechanic, this clearly shows you can put quite a bit of acceleration behind something. However, it does limit the range at which it could be used.

'It can be used as a primitive space drive in emergencies.'

Pure fluff text, therefore Official. Fear a guy who can scoot around a system on the power of his mind.

Darth Wong wrote:Technically speaking, the incident with the trainees hurling a fleet of ISDs out of a star system is an example of Force users moving something at relativistic speeds, although I tend to avoid using that incident because it was a group action and probably required some extraordinary amount of concentration (hence preparation) which would not be feasible in a battle.

Actually, there WAS a battle going on, but I get what you mean (As in "they wouldn't be able to do it instantly.", although it didn't take much longer than a few minutes, if even that, once they staretd channeling through the Force.) It was also a group effort, yes, but there was only a single person actually attempting the pushing (the others simply "provided" their own Force strength to the other person to tap.)

Its also worth noting that the effort proved fatal to the one actually guiding the flows (incinerated himself, suggesting he drew too much energy.) The indication seems to be that much mass is an upper limit, even for a collective effort (Velocity may or may not have been a direct factor, since its not specifically mentioned either way.) To be fair, it should be noted most of these were trainees/fledgeling Jedi, and not experienced Knights or Masters.

There are also at least a few instances in Star by Star that suggest Jedi are using TK to propel and guidel missiles that have had their propulsion systems taken out to make spacec for more explosive. Several instances suggest that they are in fact capable of adding to or maintaining the velocity of missiles already traveling at relatavistic velocity while guiding them on target, since the fighters launchign them are. But the missiles strike before the launching ship passes by, and in the timeframe of about a second or less, indicating that the missiles are moving substantially faster than the fighters.)

Also, the Temples of Yavin IV amplified and concentrated the Force talents of the Jedi.

This was the purpose when Sith Lord Exar Kun constructed them, used them to save his consciousness, and when Luke chose it as an academy.

Eframepilot wrote: The "normal model" was very poorly defined before this discussion. According to at least one debator, it did indeed demand freakishly fast pebbles:

The "Normal model" was based on observations from both canon and official. You were too busy screaming about how "absurd" it was (Aside from the fact you were basing that conclusion on your own subjective disbelief of the capability, its amusing you argue absurdities when we are discussing people who can accelerate at hundreds or thousands of gravities, bend/tear metal without much effort, levitate massive objects, and generate lightning from their fingertips.)

In this case, as I have noted, I based my claims on this ability on indications in EU evidence, which is perfectly valid unless a specific contradiction can be proven (contradiction in this case involving more than just screaming about how stupid you think it is.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:First off, the pebble is going to be moving 10,000,000 meters per second. That's maybe 3 percent of c. Secondly, yes, I do believe they can do that, because Yoda has demonstrated the ability to generate teh required amount of force to do so. Again, this is something basic science tells us, even if zips completely past your head.

You are moderator of the Fantasy forum and took part in the thread where Connor posted the above argument. As you made no attempt to correct him, it could be said you implictly approved the "normal model" allowing very very fast pebbles. Clearly the previous model's blanket statement that the Jedi can apply the forces we see them apply needed some modifications so that relativistic pebbles would not be unavoidable consequences. I admit that MY model was crap, but some better model that does not assume Jedi can apply the forces we have observed equally to any object is necessary. Such a model will not be able to make precise quantitative predictions for the action of the Force on all objects since we do not know the mathematical laws and proportionalities that govern the Force. (The quantitative measurements themselves are perfectly valid, and we can still use them to estimate the Jedi's capabilities and limits for objects of different mass.) Establishing this was my purpose in creating this thread.

Oh, how very clever. Try pinning the blame for my statement on Nitram. How very dishonest of you. I might point out that Nitram never once indicated either way what he thought of my statement, and that judging him on the basis of it is idiotic (which is probably why you tried it.)

Secondly, I do admit I did not mention the otheraspects like the energy involved (although its not totally beyond the capabilities of powerful Jedi, like Yoda. Accelerating an 1 gram "pebble" to 10,000 km/s requires something on the order of 5e10 joules. Yes, I am ignoring that ridiculous 1/3 c claim because accelerating an object to that speed would require hundreds of thousands of kilometers of distance!), nor did I mention what I based it on (even though, as mentioned, there is basis for the claim.), but none of this really changes anything, (except for undercutting your attempted attack on Nitram and your second attempt to embarass me, perhaps.)

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Also, the Temples of Yavin IV amplified and concentrated the Force talents of the Jedi.

This was the purpose when Sith Lord Exar Kun constructed them, used them to save his consciousness, and when Luke chose it as an academy.

That only impacts the amount of strrength available for any given task. Darksaber was not mentioned as evidence of energy handling or force application, simply as an indicator of the ability to propel objects to relatavistic speeds (which was still performed by a single person - the only difference being that he had a far greater reserve to draw on than he might normally.)

SirNitram wrote:Ah yes. 'If you don't debate somethign where I can see it, you're part of the big conspiracy and are an identical drone!' stupidity. My presense in the thread was demanding you actually debate, little boy, not play bullshit games.

Okay then, I was wrong to assume "implicit approval," and I apologize.

Of course, if I wanted to be an asshole(As I am, still and forever, the first SDnet Evil Warsie Asshole), I would demand you show what makes relativistic pebbles wrong from observations. But you've already shown yourself allergic to honest debating, so I will not.

If you did demand the above, I would be forced to admit that observations don't exclude relativistic pebbles. But I hope the thread has shown why assuming relativistic pebbles are possible from just an X-Wing or boulder-moving feat is wrong. The ISD-pushing feat is a much more solid basis for a relativistic pebble claim, of course.

Eframepilot wrote:

Of course, if I wanted to be an asshole(As I am, still and forever, the first SDnet Evil Warsie Asshole), I would demand you show what makes relativistic pebbles wrong from observations. But you've already shown yourself allergic to honest debating, so I will not.

If you did demand the above, I would be forced to admit that observations don't exclude relativistic pebbles. But I hope the thread has shown why assuming relativistic pebbles are possible from just an X-Wing or boulder-moving feat is wrong. The ISD-pushing feat is a much more solid basis for a relativistic pebble claim, of course.

And the cee-fractional accelerated torpedos solidly show it is possible, very possible. It would appear you are proven quite wrong.

Eframepilot wrote: If you did demand the above, I would be forced to admit that observations don't exclude relativistic pebbles. But I hope the thread has shown why assuming relativistic pebbles are possible from just an X-Wing or boulder-moving feat is wrong. The ISD-pushing feat is a much more solid basis for a relativistic pebble claim, of course.

I like how you attempt to pretend this was somehow a thought-provoking and educational experience, rather than a simple exercise in pointing out the obvious to an anti-science fanwhore.

SirNitram wrote:

Eframepilot wrote:

Of course, if I wanted to be an asshole(As I am, still and forever, the first SDnet Evil Warsie Asshole), I would demand you show what makes relativistic pebbles wrong from observations. But you've already shown yourself allergic to honest debating, so I will not.

If you did demand the above, I would be forced to admit that observations don't exclude relativistic pebbles. But I hope the thread has shown why assuming relativistic pebbles are possible from just an X-Wing or boulder-moving feat is wrong. The ISD-pushing feat is a much more solid basis for a relativistic pebble claim, of course.

And the cee-fractional accelerated torpedos solidly show it is possible, very possible. It would appear you are proven quite wrong.

Indeed. So I made the point I wanted to in this thread and the Jedi are proved to be even more godlike than we thought before. Everybody wins!

On the ISD-shoving incident: it's been a long time since I read the book, but IIRC Pellaeon's fleet ended up farther out of the system than they could be expected to be if they moved at below c and was at relative rest to the system rather than still zooming out at near c. So the feat might be an example of superluminal teleportation, perhaps through a hyperspace wormhole like the one Palpatine generated in Dark Empire.

Eframepilot wrote: On the ISD-shoving incident: it's been a long time since I read the book, but IIRC Pellaeon's fleet ended up farther out of the system than they could be expected to be if they moved at below c and was at relative rest to the system rather than still zooming out at near c. So the feat might be an example of superluminal teleportation, perhaps through a hyperspace wormhole like the one Palpatine generated in Dark Empire.

Force TK doesn't involve hyperspace transitions. The Star Destroyers were clearly immobilized by Dorsk 81's efforts, and the feat he was doing was described as being like Force TKing AT-STs, which most certainly did *not* involve hyperspace wormholes.

And even if it *did*, there is still the fact that such ships acceelerate strongly before jumps to lightspeed, which *still* argues the Star Destroyers were propelled away relatavistically.

Eframepilot wrote: Indeed. So I made the point I wanted to in this thread and the Jedi are proved to be even more godlike than we thought before. Everybody wins!

Point? What point? Christ, this thread has been one long string of demanding evidence from you, and you constructing completely unsupported 'thought experiments' to try and make this go away. You contributed nothing, proved nothing, and were just a pain in the fucking ass.

Settle down, he's basically "amended" his position enough (or "conceded", depending on how charitable one would choose to be) that there's no reason to get excited over whatever differences remain.