1 SSD vs all of the Federation and It's allies

[pecker]

I don't know if it's been stated before, but I'm all for the Phase Cloaked Oberth of Doom. That'll ruin the SSDs day

Or they'd just technobabble the SSD to death. I personally favor the Reverse Polarized Tachyonic Baryon Waveform Phasebeam of Doom

[Jawawithagun]

learn your Trek trivia, TOWNBUS! ST's Subspace Scanning ability is limited at best and they use it combination with realspace sensors. Also you probably haven't ever used your frontal lobes enough to remember Subspace Jamming.
"no possiable way to effect Trek ships.." - *lol* I just see the the image of that vessel made of paper and red tape NCC1701E trying to run from an Interdictor to get somewhere it can do anything at all.

[Cpt_Frank]

I don't know if it's been stated before, but I'm all for the Phase Cloaked Oberth of Doom. That'll ruin the SSDs day

Or they'd just technobabble the SSD to death. I personally favor the Reverse Polarized Tachyonic Baryon Waveform Phasebeam of Doom

All inferior to the Giant Phase Cloaked Death Torpedo.

[pecker]

Notice how the Trekkies need no industrial capacity to produce an unlimited amount of phase cloaks, nor do they have any shortage of trained personnel due to their transporter cloning devices
Though, I won't try to get though the red tape to try to apply for retirement with eight other versions of me out there doing the same.

Who said i was a Trekkie? I just don't think a single SSD could take on the AQ.

Who said they ahd unlimited Phase Cloaks? They only need one.

After all, they already have one Phase Cloak, unless they took it apart. Put the ONE Phase Cloak on ONE ship. Fill it with Antimatter. Wait for the SSD to lower it's shields for some reason, ANY reason, as I doubt it'll keep them up 24/7. Maybe when it's in orbit of a planet or something. Anyway, fly in the PCOoD(tm), Decloak, SSD go boom. You need, like, 2 people to fly the thing.

Suicide is no way to beat the Empire. But a single ship is NOT the Empire. They could do it.

[Cpt_Frank]

Don't forget that with the SRTACD (short range transportation and cloning device) you can also re-juvenate old comrades again which will enable all comrade soldiers of starfleet to serve the united communist federation of socialist planets for eternity.

[Cpt_Frank]

Who said i was a Trekkie? I just don't think a single SSD could take on the AQ.

Who said they ahd unlimited Phase Cloaks? They only need one.

After all, they already have one Phase Cloak, unless they took it apart. Put the ONE Phase Cloak on ONE ship. Fill it with Antimatter. Wait for the SSD to lower it's shields for some reason, ANY reason, as I doubt it'll keep them up 24/7. Maybe when it's in orbit of a planet or something. Anyway, fly in the PCOoD(tm), Decloak, SSD go boom. You need, like, 2 people to fly the thing.

Suicide is no way to beat the Empire. But a single ship is NOT the Empire. They could do it.

Two words: lost technology.

[pecker]

Don't forget that with the SRTACD (short range transportation and cloning device) you can also re-juvenate old comrades again which will enable all comrade soldiers of starfleet to serve the united communist federation of socialist planets for eternity.

Yes, which is why if all else fails, they can just ram the SSD until it gives up

Redshirt: "We'll take that ship, or clog it's hallways with our dead!"
Stormie: "We'll defend this ship, or clog it's hallways with our dead!"

See, all SF has to do is keep replicating soldiers and sending them in. Soon, there will be so much mass in one area that the universe will implode onto the SSD, destroying it

[pecker]

[/quote]

Two words: lost technology.[/quote]

Oh, come one, they've got the one from the Pegasus in a warehosue somewhere. I bet the SF President uses it as a doorstop or something

[Cpt_Frank]

And there come the problems of the plan:
1. The ECS will have something to do. It won't just sit there and do nothing, which makes it difficult for the phase-cloaked bomb to follow, for it is much slower.
2. Cloak detection: on a phase cloaked ship, artificial gravity is still active.
The ECS should be able to pick up the gravity, and target the ship.
3. Once the ship is spotted, the ECS can use nerve gas to kill the crew of the ship, or simply run away.
4. Will the Feds ever have this idea?

[pecker]

And there come the problems of the plan:
1. The ECS will have something to do. It won't just sit there and do nothing, which makes it difficult for the phase-cloaked bomb to follow, for it is much slower.
2. Cloak detection: on a phase cloaked ship, artificial gravity is still active.
The ECS should be able to pick up the gravity, and target the ship.
3. Once the ship is spotted, the ECS can use nerve gas to kill the crew of the ship, or simply run away.
4. Will the Feds ever have this idea?

1. The ECS is gonna have to pull up in orbit in order to bombard a planet, likely. Or it'll HAVE to drop out of hyperspace to fight a fleet. Or just park the PCOoD at a major planet the ECS will definitley go to (Vulcan, Andor, Earth) and wait for it.
2: Turn off the Artificial Gravity then.
3: Assuming they hava enough gas to make that option viable, and they know what a phase cloak does, sure.
4. Eventually, when their fleets started dropping like flies. It's what I'd do.

[Cpt_Frank]

1.You didn't uderstand that. I try to make that clearer: The ECS hypers from planet X at the one edge of Fed space to planet Y at the other end of Fed space in several hours. The fed phase cloak ship will need weeks to cover that distance.
2.Will make work on the ship difficult.
3.Chemical warfare is extremely common in the SW galaxy, so they'll probably have a huge collection of various agents aboard the ship. Also, the comprehensive databanks found aboard all the Fed vessels and starbases will make it very easy to collect information.
4.We've never seen anything like that from the Feds.
5.Wasn't the only existing phase cloak from pegasus to be destroyed because the romulans demanded it?

[pecker]

1.You didn't uderstand that. I try to make that clearer: The ECS hypers from planet X at the one edge of Fed space to planet Y at the other end of Fed space in several hours. The fed phase cloak ship will need weeks to cover that distance.
2.Will make work on the ship difficult.
3.Chemical warfare is extremely common in the SW galaxy, so they'll probably have a huge collection of various agents aboard the ship. Also, the comprehensive databanks found aboard all the Fed vessels and starbases will make it very easy to collect information.
4.We've never seen anything like that from the Feds.
5.Wasn't the only existing phase cloak from pegasus to be destroyed because the romulans demanded it?

1. I know. Which is why it waits at one planet. This is also assuming the ECS has foreknowledge of Feddie space, planets, etc...
2. I'm sure they can install a seatbelt on the captain's chair Or jsut way magnetic boots and turn them off when the ECS jumps in.
3. I doubt every SF databank has info on a top secret, illegal project.
4. Again, they will when faced with immediate destruction (The onlt time before this was in FC, and the Treaty was still in effect at that time. Once the Rommies start losing like mofos, I'm sure they'll let the Feddies build a phase cloak.
5. Was it? I dont' pay much attention to Trek. But I'm sure they kept the plans for it somewhere, even if it's in someone's head. Maybe take the Pegasus' Captian out of prison? It's not a lost tech, just misplaced.

[Alyeska]

First of all, the quote was that the fleet had CHECKED IN. That implies that all of its ships were involved in the engagement, and that it had only had about a hundred ships, initially during the engagement.

Second, are you seriously claiming that the Federation was strategically moronic for bringing along lots of worthless, cannon fodder ships when only the Defiant class ships were capable of fighting?

Third, we know that Centaurs are of comparable firepower to an Attack Ship, because one of those engaged Sisko's ship by itself. If it was significantly outgunned by the ship, the Centaur should have let Sisko and his crew go or called up reinforcements. It should not have engaged if it was deficient in firepower.

Fourth, the Klingons have 1,500 ships. The Federation has 10,000 ships. We'll be generous and say that the Romulans were only able to commit 250 ships to combat. This means that the Jem'Hadar outnumber the Federation and its allies by less than 50%, and their ships are clearly less powerful. Remember that the Klingon fleet, by itself, was able to hold off ALL THREE of the Dominion's major powers for a significant amount of time. This should have been impossible if, as you claim, the Jem'Hadar and their allies were about as powerful as the Klingons and Federation, ship for ship. Clearly something else is going on, here.

I'm going to bed. I'll check back and see if you've responded tomorrow.

Actually, I was wrong.

Klingons had 1,500 retrofit ships and were outnumbered 20-1

1,500 x 20 = 30,000

Breen, Dominion, and Cardassians combined had 30,000 ships.

Please do tell me how the Federation won the war with 4-5K ships with the Klingons and Romulans supplying equal numbers.

Jem'Hadar attackships are greater then the Miranda, Sabre, Centuar, B'rel, and all the other small or Frankestein ships. Jem'Hadar cruisers are equal to Warbirds and GCSs (which the Jem'Hadar has more of). Jem'Hadar dreadnaughts are superior to Sovereigns. Galor's are greater then Excelsiors and anything less then that. Breen ships had numbers and hadn't fought for very long.

So please explain how the Dominion lost if the Federation had 4-5K ships, the Klingons had 1,500, and the Romulans only supplied 250.

And don't bother say because the Cardassians changed sides. The Alliance expected to win before the Cardassians changed sides.

[Stormbringer]

Please do tell me how the Federation won the war with 4-5K ships with the Klingons and Romulans supplying equal numbers.

A dues ex ending yanked out of the writer's ass?

[Alyeska]

Please do tell me how the Federation won the war with 4-5K ships with the Klingons and Romulans supplying equal numbers.

A dues ex ending yanked out of the writer's ass?

Hardly. The Alliance had full expectations to win, and after the Cardassians changed sides they still expected 40% causalities of their remaining forces in the final push against Cardassia.

[Ghost Rider]

1. I know. Which is why it waits at one planet. This is also assuming the ECS has foreknowledge of Feddie space, planets, etc...
2. I'm sure they can install a seatbelt on the captain's chair Or jsut way magnetic boots and turn them off when the ECS jumps in.
3. I doubt every SF databank has info on a top secret, illegal project.
4. Again, they will when faced with immediate destruction (The onlt time before this was in FC, and the Treaty was still in effect at that time. Once the Rommies start losing like mofos, I'm sure they'll let the Feddies build a phase cloak.
5. Was it? I dont' pay much attention to Trek. But I'm sure they kept the plans for it somewhere, even if it's in someone's head. Maybe take the Pegasus' Captian out of prison? It's not a lost tech, just misplaced.

1. Ummm yeah okay

2. Sure, just because they have never done, and we aren't even sure they are capable of it...they rely on the bloody SIF so much that such considerations are just grasping at straws.

3. True, but given they belief of everyone with some equal knowledge crap, I'm sure there is mention of it.

4. LMAO...now that is truly grasping at straws given that the Romulans never let Starfleet produce a fucking cloaking device let alone anything of any variation.

5. Nope all gone, and so what if I let out captian who commanded a Nuclear Sub, does that mean I can now create nuclear warhead?

[Darth Wong]

Hey Alyeska, could you do us a favour and print the actual onscreen quotes which you are using to generate all of these numbers? Because it sort of looks like you're just pulling numbers out of thin air (eg- "1500 ships and they were outnumbered 20 to 1").

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hey Alyeska, could you do us a favour and print the actual onscreen quotes which you are using to generate all of these numbers? Because it sort of looks like you're just pulling numbers out of thin air (eg- "1500 ships and they were outnumbered 20 to 1").

Actually he's right. General Martok said "I can have 1500 ships refitted [modification for imunity to Breen weapon] by tommorow. Admiral Ross (or maybe a Romulan said "You'd be outnumbered 20 to 1."

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Here we go


From DS9 "When it Rains..."



MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have eleven hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.

ROMULAN: (dismissive) With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar you're still outnumbered twenty-to-one.


I do believe 1100 was changed to 1500, but I could be wrong.

[Darth Wong]

Here we go
From DS9 "When it Rains..."

MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have eleven hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.

ROMULAN: (dismissive) With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar you're still outnumbered twenty-to-one.

I do believe 1100 was changed to 1500, but I could be wrong.

Ah, so according to the Romulan (who we assume performed the correct mental math rather than exaggerating), the combined forces of the Breen, the Cardassians, and the Dominion add up to either 22,000 ships or 30,000 ships. This would imply roughly 7,000 to 10,000 ships per group, many of which are relatively small (ie- fighters, 100m long "attack ships", etc).

BTW, he doesn't seem to state which class of vessels he's talking about. The word "vessels" is pretty vague; is he including non-combat support craft?

[Alyeska]

Here we go
From DS9 "When it Rains..."

MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have eleven hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.

ROMULAN: (dismissive) With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar you're still outnumbered twenty-to-one.

I do believe 1100 was changed to 1500, but I could be wrong.

Ah, so according to the Romulan (who we assume performed the correct mental math rather than exaggerating), the combined forces of the Breen, the Cardassians, and the Dominion add up to either 22,000 ships or 30,000 ships. This would imply roughly 7,000 to 10,000 ships per group, many of which are relatively small (ie- fighters, 100m long "attack ships", etc).

BTW, he doesn't seem to state which class of vessels he's talking about. The word "vessels" is pretty vague; is he including non-combat support craft?

Unlikely. What do you care that your enemy outnumbers you 20-1 when half of them are non-combat craft? All you care about being outnumbered is the 10-1 combat ships.

FYI the Jem'Hadar attackship is the same aproximate length as the Defiant. That is 120 meters, and its near equivilant to the Miranda/Sabre/B'Rel/Centaur ships. In Sacrafice Angels we see the fleet has LARGE numbers of Galor class ships involved. The smal Hedieki Cardassian ship is actually quite rare compared to the Galor class ships. The Dominion Cruiser is relatively common, and the newer Dreadnaught numbered fairly high by the last episode. The Breen ships are of one size, about 330 meters.

As to the number of ships per group, that would imply somewhat equal, but you have to take other things into account. Jem'Hadar ship building is superior to the Cardassians, and the Cardassians were sustaining losses long before the war (Klingon invassion being a prime example.). So its more likely that the numbers come down along these lines.

15,000 Dominion ships (They number most numerous compared to Cardassian and Breen ships)

9,000 Breen ships (By the last fleet battle, Breen ships numbered more then the Cardassian ships)

6,000 Cardassian ships (They had been fighting in wars the longest and replaced their ships much slower then the Dominion)

With Galor class ships being more powerful then most of the Allied ships (exlcuding Defiant, Galaxy, Vorcha, Nebula, Sovereign, Warbird, and Negh'Var ships), and Dominion Cruisers and Dreanaughts numbering in large numbers, I see no way anything less then a 12,000 Federation fleet (I am not saying they had that many in the lsat episode, but that is how many they started with before the war) with smaller fleets for the Romulans and Klingons (Klingons had been fighting the longest, Romulans have larger ships so they would have smaller fleet sizes, and the Federation ships invariably numbered more numerous in fleet engagements then the other Allies)

[Darth Wong]

BTW, he doesn't seem to state which class of vessels he's talking about. The word "vessels" is pretty vague; is he including non-combat support craft?

Unlikely. What do you care that your enemy outnumbers you 20-1 when half of them are non-combat craft? All you care about being outnumbered is the 10-1 combat ships.

Circular logic. Who said that Martok meant "combat ships" when he referred to his own "vessels", and why should we use that assumption in order to conclude that they must have meant the same when referring to the enemy vessels? You are assuming that Martok meant "combat ships" when he said "vessels", in order to prove that Martok meant "combat ships" when he said "vessels."

Moreover, you are still dismissing without cause the possibility that the Romulan didn't bother to perform accurate division and was simply exaggerating. Kirk once described the Klingon/Federation peace accord as "universal peace"; do you interpret this to mean that the Klingons and Federation controlled the entire universe?

If we ignore non-combat support craft such as transports, fuelers, supply ships, etc and disregard small craft such as shuttles, fighters, and runabouts, then how does a loss of 112 ships represent a crippling blow to a fleet of 12,000? I'm sorry, but your explanations of that one are pretty weak, and you know it.

I could buy a fleet of 10-15,000 ships if we're not restricting ourselves to capital warships, but not if we are.

[Alyeska]

BTW, he doesn't seem to state which class of vessels he's talking about. The word "vessels" is pretty vague; is he including non-combat support craft?

Unlikely. What do you care that your enemy outnumbers you 20-1 when half of them are non-combat craft? All you care about being outnumbered is the 10-1 combat ships.

Circular logic. Who said that Martok meant "combat ships" when he referred to his own "vessels", and why should we use that assumption in order to conclude that they must have meant the same when referring to the enemy vessels? You are assuming that Martok meant "combat ships" when he said "vessels", in order to prove that Martok meant "combat ships" when he said "vessels."

Moreover, you are still dismissing without cause the possibility that the Romulan didn't bother to perform accurate division and was simply exaggerating. Kirk once described the Klingon/Federation peace accord as "universal peace"; do you interpret this to mean that the Klingons and Federation controlled the entire universe?

If we ignore non-combat support craft such as transports, fuelers, supply ships, etc and disregard small craft such as shuttles, fighters, and runabouts, then how does a loss of 112 ships represent a crippling blow to a fleet of 12,000? I'm sorry, but your explanations of that one are pretty weak, and you know it.

I could buy a fleet of 10-15,000 ships if we're not restricting ourselves to capital warships, but not if we are.

Actually Bashir made the statement that Starfleet couldn't keep taking losses like that. Out of 112 ships, 14 survived. That is a 87% casualty rate. Bashir wasn't referring to the 7th fleet itself as hugely significant loss to the fleet, but the loss of so many ships to few surviving.

Furthermore what GAT didn't put in the quote is the fact that the Klingons had to hold the line for the Alliance and they were regarding the ships that Martok could get on the line to defend their borders. As for how powerful support ships are, the Klingons use the same cargo ship the Cardassians did and its most powerful weapon can't even take on a BoP. Changing their shields would be useless because it wouldn't increase their survivability at all.

[Darth Wong]

Damn quoting ... I hope you don't mind, but I went in and fixed the quote tags on the last two posts. Anyway:

I could buy a fleet of 10-15,000 ships if we're not restricting ourselves to capital warships, but not if we are.

Actually Bashir made the statement that Starfleet couldn't keep taking losses like that. Out of 112 ships, 14 survived. That is a 87% casualty rate. Bashir wasn't referring to the 7th fleet itself as hugely significant loss to the fleet, but the loss of so many ships to few surviving.

Your preferred interpretation. Not the only one possible, and certainly not consistent with onscreen dialogue describing that fleet as a major linchpin of their hopes for the war.

Furthermore what GAT didn't put in the quote is the fact that the Klingons had to hold the line for the Alliance and they were regarding the ships that Martok could get on the line to defend their borders. As for how powerful support ships are, the Klingons use the same cargo ship the Cardassians did and its most powerful weapon can't even take on a BoP. Changing their shields would be useless because it wouldn't increase their survivability at all.

Yes they would. Non-combat ships represent the logistical train of your fleet, and without them, you're fucked. You are still employing the circular logic of assuming that they count only combat vessels; in this case, you are assuming that non-combat vessels are useless to the war effort unless they engage in combat! Moreover, you disregard the point made that they did use runabouts, shuttles, and fighters in battle, so you can hardly assume that they are not counted.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Here we go
From DS9 "When it Rains..."

MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have eleven hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.

ROMULAN: (dismissive) With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar you're still outnumbered twenty-to-one.

I do believe 1100 was changed to 1500, but I could be wrong.

Ah, so according to the Romulan (who we assume performed the correct mental math rather than exaggerating), the combined forces of the Breen, the Cardassians, and the Dominion add up to either 22,000 ships or 30,000 ships. This would imply roughly 7,000 to 10,000 ships per group, many of which are relatively small (ie- fighters, 100m long "attack ships", etc).

BTW, he doesn't seem to state which class of vessels he's talking about. The word "vessels" is pretty vague; is he including non-combat support craft?

Unlikely. He was talking about a modification to make them imune to an energy draining weapon. I doubt non-combat ships would need that.



OTOH, giving them the modification would increse the chances of their survival a lot.