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The Aliens wrote:- twelve X-Wings brought down the VSD at the Alderaan Graveyard.

[nit pick] Eleven X-Wings and three Heavily modified TIE bombers[/np]

Ender wrote:Who was at the time corrobrating with KJA on the story so that the JAT would mesh.

Smartest thing Zahn ever did was tell that hack to go fuck himself. Pity no one else did.

Would have it be that continuity would be even more fucked than it is?

Ideally, DE should've come before TTT, because as it is, Zahn's asshole antics got his own ubermensch invalidated: Palpatine was using Thrawn as a distraction for his own return, then disposed of him.

It is not up to the individual authors to decide what is continuity. Dark Empire was good, and more congruent with the filmic Empire than the Thrawn Trilogy.

The problem was that the plot was basically out by Dark Empire. Dark Empire II had its moments, but basically once it got to the Galaxy Gun, the Jedi-lite on Ossus, and anything having to do with Brand and that pocket of space bullshit was retarded. The only thing worth salvaging from that plot for a sequel to DE (which wasn't really necessary--they should've just stretched the plot of DE out and showed us the capture of Coruscant and such as earlier comics) was Balmorra and the X-1 Vipers.

Empire's End was terrible because they said, oops, we need to cut this, and bam! finished it. This is why they should not have kept adding shit after DE.

Fanstastically, it would've been nice to have a few book trilogies with some comic participation and such, analogous to the SOTE run. The DE story could have been told in three parts: 1. the fall of the New Republic and the Imperial Civil War, 2. the return of Palpatine and the Operation Shadow Hand, 3. the victory at Calamari and the death of Palpatine.

The Thrawn Trilogy should have followed DE, not the other way around. Furthermore, the DE project had been in the works before TTT and Bantam got their contract.

Personally I like Dark Empire and the plot and stuff is just great to me. The DE trilogy should've been DE expanded and added to, because DE2 was mostly retarded, and EE was a waste of time.

The Aliens wrote:Absolutely annoying how Stackpole has Rogue Squadron blow up SSDs with a few hundred torpedoes- torpedoes seem to be the holy fucking grail for everything- twelve X-Wings brought down the VSD at the Alderaan Graveyard.

Also, Corran Horn.

Also, Ysanne Isard being resurrected.

Also, I, Jedi.

You mean how Rogue Squadron along with two dozen torpedo armed freighters, another squadron of superiority fighters, two ISDs, a War Frigate, and three squadrons of A-Wings took down an SSD with effectively no friendly fighter support.

Not quite the same situation you claim it to be.

And of course there is the fact that it was the apperance of the Valiant that allowed the VSD to be killed. The captain of that ship was keeping the fighters off the downed shields and he would have won had the Valiant not shown up and hit his unshielded side.

Who says Pellaeon left the battle as soon as the DS exploded?

Wasn´t the later warlord Harrsk the first to abandon the battle according to the EC?

Who tells us, that Pellaeon didn´t ordered the retreat AFTER GA Teshik´s ship was disabled? In HttE he states, that he and the rest of the fleet contiuned to fight and Thrawn puts him down by claiming, that they fought like cadetts after the influence of the emperor was gone.

Alyeska wrote:You mean how Rogue Squadron along with two dozen torpedo armed freighters, another squadron of superiority fighters, two ISDs, a War Frigate, and three squadrons of A-Wings took down an SSD with effectively no friendly fighter support.

Which amounts to a few hundred torpdoes- this was an SSD versus two ISDs and an outdated War Frigate with fighters in the mix- it should not have been taken down so easily. Granted, I'd forgotten about the Freedom and the A-Wings, but it doesn't change my original gripe.

And of course there is the fact that it was the apperance of the Valiant that allowed the VSD to be killed. The captain of that ship was keeping the fighters off the downed shields and he would have won had the Valiant not shown up and hit his unshielded side.

Outdated War Frigate and 11 X-Wings and 3 TIE Bombers, then. Still should never have dropepd a VSD so quickly.

You're an idiot.

How is it difficult to understand the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that all flag officers, including GADM Teshik, were incapacitated, or for you to understand that Pelleaon wasn't even CO of the Chimaera, much less a flag officer with the authority to issue fleet-wide commands.

The Aliens wrote:

Alyeska wrote:You mean how Rogue Squadron along with two dozen torpedo armed freighters, another squadron of superiority fighters, two ISDs, a War Frigate, and three squadrons of A-Wings took down an SSD with effectively no friendly fighter support.

Which amounts to a few hundred torpdoes- this was an SSD versus two ISDs and an outdated War Frigate with fighters in the mix- it should not have been taken down so easily. Granted, I'd forgotten about the Freedom and the A-Wings, but it doesn't change my original gripe.

And of course there is the fact that it was the apperance of the Valiant that allowed the VSD to be killed. The captain of that ship was keeping the fighters off the downed shields and he would have won had the Valiant not shown up and hit his unshielded side.

Outdated War Frigate and 11 X-Wings and 3 TIE Bombers, then. Still should never have dropepd a VSD so quickly.

As to the Corruptor, its bridge was torpedoed and IIRC the engines had been turbolasered into vapor by the War Frigate. And they were in the shards of Alderaan. Asteroids will do a job on you if you drive into the middle of them and have just taken a torpedo beating.

I'm not saying its impossible- obviously it's possible because it happened. I'm just saying that it should have taken much longer and much more effort before it happened.

The Aliens wrote:

Alyeska wrote:You mean how Rogue Squadron along with two dozen torpedo armed freighters, another squadron of superiority fighters, two ISDs, a War Frigate, and three squadrons of A-Wings took down an SSD with effectively no friendly fighter support.

Which amounts to a few hundred torpdoes- this was an SSD versus two ISDs and an outdated War Frigate with fighters in the mix- it should not have been taken down so easily. Granted, I'd forgotten about the Freedom and the A-Wings, but it doesn't change my original gripe.

Nitpicky, but the dozen-odd freighters were equipped with capital-class torpedoes. Big heavy-yield honkers.

And the Lusankya, without a proper yard or dock, and attached to perhaps a single isolated sector, was probably not well services and supplied.

The Aliens wrote:

Alyeska wrote:And of course there is the fact that it was the apperance of the Valiant that allowed the VSD to be killed. The captain of that ship was keeping the fighters off the downed shields and he would have won had the Valiant not shown up and hit his unshielded side.

Outdated War Frigate and 11 X-Wings and 3 TIE Bombers, then. Still should never have dropepd a VSD so quickly.

I agree. The War Cruiser is comparable to a Carrack, at best.

The worst is Allston, really.

In X-Wing: Iron First, an Executor-class, the Iron Fist, is outgunned along the forward arc by the broadside of a supposedly 1,200 meter Mon Cal battlecruiser (MC80B NRS Mon Remonda), with only some frigates, corvettes, and a wing or so of starfighters as support.

And then, in X-Wing: Solo Command, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, three Nebulon-B frigates, one Immboliser 418, two MC80 Mon Calamari cruisers, and one MC80B Mon Calamari battlecruiser are expected to overwhelm Zsinj's fleet of one Executor-class command ship, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, three Victory-class Star Destroyers, six Dreadnought-class CHs, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, one Lancer-class frigate, and three Carrack-class vessels.

In Darksabre, (variant?) MC90 NRS Galactic Voyager (supposedly just 1,255 meter LOA) manages to survive being attacked by an Executor-class command ship, and at least around six Victory-class Star Destroyers for an extended period.

Someone tell me how such shitty Rebel stuff can stand up so much to much better-designed Imperial hardware.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're an idiot.

How is it difficult to understand the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that all flag officers, including GADM Teshik, were incapacitated, or for you to understand that Pelleaon wasn't even CO of the Chimaera, much less a flag officer with the authority to issue fleet-wide commands.

Talking to me, asshole?

Explain, why Pellaeons orders for a retreat were followed, if there were still higher-ranking officers around, who could override Pellaeons commands anytime they wished. And if they were, why they didn´t.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Nitpicky, but the dozen-odd freighters were equipped with capital-class torpedoes. Big heavy-yield honkers.

Point conceeded.

And the Lusankya, without a proper yard or dock, and attached to perhaps a single isolated sector, was probably not well services and supplied.

They were on Thyferra, which seems to be the SW equivalent of Brunei- they would be able to afford all the supplies they needed, but fitting them is a different matter. Chances are, stuff was breaking down that could only be patched together, but the crew would have had adequate food, ammo and replacement parts for minor breakdowns.

The worst is Allston, really.

In X-Wing: Iron First, an Executor-class, the Iron Fist, is outgunned along the forward arc by the broadside of a supposedly 1,200 meter Mon Cal battlecruiser (MC80B NRS Mon Remonda), with only some frigates, corvettes, and a wing or so of starfighters as support.

And then, in X-Wing: Solo Command, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, three Nebulon-B frigates, one Immboliser 418, two MC80 Mon Calamari cruisers, and one MC80B Mon Calamari battlecruiser are expected to overwhelm Zsinj's fleet of one Executor-class command ship, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, three Victory-class Star Destroyers, six Dreadnought-class CHs, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, one Lancer-class frigate, and three Carrack-class vessels.

In Darksabre, (variant?) MC90 NRS Galactic Voyager (supposedly just 1,255 meter LOA) manages to survive being attacked by an Executor-class command ship, and at least around six Victory-class Star Destroyers for an extended period.

Someone tell me how such shitty Rebel stuff can stand up so much to much better-designed Imperial hardware.

Horrible for continuity and good sense, but a better writer than Stackpole overall IMO.

Compare this to ROTJ, where easily a dozen and a half Mon Cals and many explosive ramships assault HIMS Executor at once, and only manage to damage the shield grid.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Compare this to ROTJ, where easily a dozen and a half Mon Cals and many explosive ramships assault HIMS Executor at once, and only manage to damage the shield grid.

And only a half dozen ships were known to be in range of the Executor at the time of the bombardment. Furthermore the shields began failing almost instantly after the concentrated bombardment. The Executor class was a failure in regards to a battleship because the ship had horribly weak shields for a ship of its size.

Alyeska wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Compare this to ROTJ, where easily a dozen and a half Mon Cals and many explosive ramships assault HIMS Executor at once, and only manage to damage the shield grid.

And only a half dozen ships were known to be in range of the Executor at the time of the bombardment.

Post Proof Or Retract.

And that's still vastly more firepower than the EU gives her credit. Allston and Anderson emasculated the Executor's guns too.

Alyeska wrote:Furthermore the shields began failing almost instantly after the concentrated bombardment. The Executor class was a failure in regards to a battleship because the ship had horribly weak shields for a ship of its size.

I'll agree, but the level to which it has been denigrated is pathetic.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Post Proof Or Retract.

And that's still vastly more firepower than the EU gives her credit. Allston and Anderson emasculated the Executor's guns too.

Oh give me a break. Anyone who can watch ROTJ can see four cruisers in range from the bridge scene. We also know that Ackbar was behind/above the Executor when he makes the order to concetrate firepower. Figure another ship behind the Executor. Visuals we know of only five ships covering most of the Executors sides. Yes that might be more firepower then what the authors said, but it also fits with what the authors said to a degree. The Executor class wasn't designed as a battleship. This is why moderate sized task forces can threaten one.

Alyeska wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Post Proof Or Retract.

And that's still vastly more firepower than the EU gives her credit. Allston and Anderson emasculated the Executor's guns too.

Oh give me a break. Anyone who can watch ROTJ can see four cruisers in range from the bridge scene.

The TLs have hundreds of kilometers range if not more. The Imperial-Rebel brawl was not thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers in radius and I don't believe that the Executor was so enveloped in ISDs that it would be impossible to get clean shots in.

I see no reason why almost every vessel in the fleet couldn't have fired TLs at the Executor. Merely because you can't phyiscally see any more of the Rebel fleet a few kilometers right in front of the Executor does not mean they were out of range.

Alyeska wrote:We also know that Ackbar was behind/above the Executor when he makes the order to concetrate firepower. Figure another ship behind the Executor. Visuals we know of only five ships covering most of the Executors sides.

See above.

Alyeska wrote:Yes that might be more firepower then what the authors said, but it also fits with what the authors said to a degree. The Executor class wasn't designed as a battleship. This is why moderate sized task forces can threaten one.

Idiot, Ackbar gives a general order to concentrate all firepower on the Executor, and you think only ship within a few kilometers suddenly are being referred to (I missed that part of the order) and all Mon Cal guns suddenly shrunk in range to a ship length?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/at/headon-at.jpg

I don't know, that space looks awfuly crowded for long range shots...

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The worst is Allston, really.

In X-Wing: Iron First, an Executor-class, the Iron Fist, is outgunned along the forward arc by the broadside of a supposedly 1,200 meter Mon Cal battlecruiser (MC80B NRS Mon Remonda), with only some frigates, corvettes, and a wing or so of starfighters as support.

Actually, it was the SSD's VENTRAL bow arc. Even a basic reader of RPG stats won't assume the MC80B has more broadside firepower than the SSD's bow firepower. But a scholar of canon might note (given no completed study of the Executor gunnery placements has ever taken place) that KDY likes to put the best guns on top. If it was in the sweet spot and all... maybe there's a fraction of an inch of a chance.

Remember the plusses too. DESPITE the supposed firepower deficit, the MC80B was disabled in short order while the SSD suffered superficial damage (not counting sabotage.)

And the SSD dealt with Mauler and Gilded Claw pretty easily when she ran too, and was taking fire from as many as 12 Star Destroyers, maybe more. It took some damage, but not decisive.

And then, in X-Wing: Solo Command, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, three Nebulon-B frigates, one Immboliser 418, two MC80 Mon Calamari cruisers, and one MC80B Mon Calamari battlecruiser are expected to overwhelm Zsinj's fleet of one Executor-class command ship, three Imperial-class Star Destroyers, three Victory-class Star Destroyers, six Dreadnought-class CHs, a Quasar Fire-class carrier, one Lancer-class frigate, and three Carrack-class vessels.

If Stackpole were writing it, the first starfighter attack of over 200 fighters would have killed the Iron Fist. Count your blessings.

It wasn't that bad. The battle was fought in two rounds. Try to remember in Allston's mind, the Iron Fist is only 8km long. We can only kick him once for this near-universal violation.

The first battle had Zsinj's Group 1 going up against Solo's entire fleet. Instead of TRYING to fight it out (given the efficiency in which he disabled Mon Remonda last time with a fraction of his firepower it might be worth trying,) he chooses to run. He leaves Red Gauntlet and Serpent's Smile as a rearguard, losing them both.

Group 1's thus down to Blood Gutter, a Carrack. Basically, Group 1 has been attrited to nothing. The second round had Zsinj trying to reinforce with Group 3. The group he sent to engage Group 3 (2 ISDs, 1 frigate, 2 corvettes) has at least a 50-50 chance against Group 3 (1 ISD, 1 VSD, 2 Dreadnaughts, 1 carrier and 1 Lancer.) The first ISD engages Zsinj's ISD, the second against the VSD and the two Dreadnaughts, the Neb-B shoots at the carrier and the two corvettes together should be able to deal with the antistarfighter Lancer.) That's even firepower distribution, and there are other fire plans possible. When you add Lara giving them all the weak points...

The four ships against the SSD was the most objectionable part. Even then, Zsinj did not turn for decisive engagement, thus sparing the ships his full wrath. In the actual battle, regardless of theory, the Rebels were counting up damage points, but there was still no decisive damage - some systems were supposedly faltering, but they had no real damage yet.

In Darksabre, (variant?) MC90 NRS Galactic Voyager (supposedly just 1,255 meter LOA) manages to survive being attacked by an Executor-class command ship, and at least around six Victory-class Star Destroyers for an extended period.

Someone tell me how such shitty Rebel stuff can stand up so much to much better-designed Imperial hardware.

To be fair, the MC90 should be a properly designed warship. But how do you know it was an extended period? And Darksaber was KJA's fault.

Maybe its just a matter of training. A MC90 has one of the best crews in the whole NR navy. Knight Hammer may have a very substandard crew. If that's so ... by staying at very long range, the MC90 may be able to keep most of the firepower from actually hitting them. They also weren't causing much counterdamage too, were they?

It's crummy. It's the best I can come up with without reading a crummy KJA book.

From Waaaaaay back there.

Pelleaon's a weakling, docile commander who prefers to obey orders. He's only marginally competant, and now positively geriatric.

Writers differ. In the Thrawn series he was somewhat of a servant character, but he was intelligent and attentive: it wa clear he was watching Thrawn like a hawk and learning alll the time. He wasn't brilliant. He was something better: he had common sense. Some of the writers make him out to be dull, but I rather liked him. He was a survivor and he wasn't insane. He didn't particular despise the NR, he just thought it was weak and ineffectual.

Smiling Bandit wrote:From Waaaaaay back there.

Pelleaon's a weakling, docile commander who prefers to obey orders. He's only marginally competant, and now positively geriatric.

Writers differ. In the Thrawn series he was somewhat of a servant character, but he was intelligent and attentive: it wa clear he was watching Thrawn like a hawk and learning alll the time. He wasn't brilliant. He was something better: he had common sense. Some of the writers make him out to be dull, but I rather liked him. He was a survivor and he wasn't insane. He didn't particular despise the NR, he just thought it was weak and ineffectual.

In any event, he's certainly evolved in the decade since he was introduced, from both rank (captain to Imperial Grand Admiral) and as a character (I still think Force Heretic I is his shining moment)

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Nitpicky, but the dozen-odd freighters were equipped with capital-class torpedoes. Big heavy-yield honkers.

They were also firing salvoes of eighty at a time.

And they didn't actually destroy the structure of the Lusankya, they burned off the engines and most of the topside hull emplacements, reducing her to negative fight or flight capability.

One must remember the Executor-class is much more a supercarrier and a command ship than a battleship.

Her weapons for the most part aren't much heavier than those of a destroyer or light cruiser.

FTeik wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're an idiot.

How is it difficult to understand the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that all flag officers, including GADM Teshik, were incapacitated, or for you to understand that Pelleaon wasn't even CO of the Chimaera, much less a flag officer with the authority to issue fleet-wide commands.

Talking to me, asshole?

Explain, why Pellaeons orders for a retreat were followed, if there were still higher-ranking officers around, who could override Pellaeons commands anytime they wished. And if they were, why they didn´t.

Pellaeon's order was followed because other officers panicked too. They were likely also confused and didn't bother to check just who this Pellaeon guy was, since they probably weren't expecting a lowly XO to issue an illegal fleet command.

And anyways, why the hell should we psychoanalyze the characters to figure out why they did what they did, when we know precisely what it was that happened?

- The Death Star exploded (ROTJ)
- Pellaeon issued a retreat order (Zahn stuff, other sources)
- The rest of the fleet kept fighting until they were destroyed (DESB, "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals")

If you don't like it, tough shit.

Of course he doesn't like it, because he and his Mittywanker buddies will mciroanalyze any aspect to keep Timmy's ubermensch and Mary Sues sacrosant.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Of course he doesn't like it, because he and his Mittywanker buddies will mciroanalyze any aspect to keep Timmy's ubermensch and Mary Sues sacrosant.

Uhm, not a fan of Zahn? Or not a fan of Thrawn? Or both?