Yuuzhan Vong in the Delta Quadrant

[Master of Ossus]

Illuminatus Primus: I was going to rebut however in you first line you again mention the moon idea if you think the people of earth are going to sit there and allow the moon to fall on them you are an idiot of the highest order - I cant be bothered with you anymore and wont be reading your posts, MOO while somewhat combative you are actually capable of reason and I will therefore respond to your posts, if he comes up with a great point (hell even a valid point would do) please repeat it in your posts so I will actually see it I however cant be bother with the utter dreck he is spouting, Im sorry to inflict such horror upon you but I cant stand Vong fanboys anymore than I could stand a borg fanboy.

Will do.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: You insist a YV Vs Feds battle will be lightening quick but neglact the fact that the Feds do have advantages over them and you have said yourself that the Vong could hit and run - very well but a hit and run against earth wont work because earth is defended and so is Vulcan and so on and so on.

Section 31s weapon was designed to appear natural if it was selective in that it destroyed all dominoin but no one else it would probably give the game away, the idea was tha it would be a stealth weapon (if the dominion had waited 3 years befor edeclaring war there never would have been one), the weapon was designed to target only a totally aliemn lifeform (check), appear natural (check) yet have a long incubation peroid (check).
Bashir didnt find a cure by the way he stole one from section 31 and the dominion have been shown to be masters of biological science (building two species and using bioweapons that were designed to also do a specific job and not kill on sight).
Why are we talking about this though? this isnt Chiss Vs Feds (luckily), the Chiss developed a bioweapon - yipee good for them, it has no bearing on wether the Feds could.

If the Vong take their time, build up their forces in the DQ and somehow stay bneath everyones radar then they will be able to overun the FKR but not without large loss of Vong life which would land them right in it for when the other races decide to pay them a visit.

OIn the part where you call me a liar (thanks ) you neglect that I said the NR never countered (apart from the rogue ops by jedi etc), this isnt a lie since building defense desnt constitute a counter attack and thats what I mean - the NR didnt go on the offensive.

On the O'Brien cloak issue - this tech is already in use (Ref Face of the Enemy) the Federation border is littered with gravimetric sensors that could pick up warbirds, however I dont think the tech is good enough to actually target a cloaked vessel just nkow ones near (unless its within rock throwing distance as was the case when the romulans were orbiting DS9).

On the targetting issue - the weapons targetting really doesnt have much to do with tranbsporters especially since ECM probably goes on during Trek battles and therefore with the Vong not having real ECM (Ref Ender -you have made the big time now ) they should be easier to hit not harder.

Again staying out of range isnt the Feds only option but its an ok noe to do some damage (imagine the number of transporters on a fed ship - 6 on a GCS plus shuttles, then orbiting docks etc, thats 100s of transporters waiting to act as one shot killers, the Vong may make it to earth orbit but they would loose many many ships while the Feds hide under shields and clean up the biosphere, yes it would be damaging but the Vong would loose a whole lot of ships and gain almost nothing except a few million deads Feds, if this setup ad th Vong attacking teh Federation first like in NJO then those few thousand ships they lost would drain them completely in this situation however they could absorb the losses but could they absorb those losses for world after world?

Conclusion: Vong in this situation may be able to overun Federation but they would be s low in population and ship counts that they would be open to attack from rebel FKR divisions and the other races (not to mention that the FKR could and would denie the Vong there prize with bioweapons, meaning the Vong wouldnt have many slaves to use.

In a situation like NJO (with the Vong hitting the Feds from the get go) the lack of a Vong safe habour would be very costly and as the War dragged on and Vong losses mounted (the Vong would have to curb offensives to non critical targets) worldships would begin to die and the Vong would be forced into some sort of deal or death.

[meNNis]

i cant believe people are arguing that the YV could lose let alone that it would take them more than a week to win

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: You insist a YV Vs Feds battle will be lightening quick but neglact the fact that the Feds do have advantages over them and you have said yourself that the Vong could hit and run - very well but a hit and run against earth wont work because earth is defended and so is Vulcan and so on and so on.

I don't ignore the UFP's advantages, I'm saying that they are fairly insignificant next to the ones that the YV have. Let's look at their advantages:

Transporters--never used in direct, ship-to-ship combat with the enemy. Requires excellent sensor data, a lowering of shields, and very close range.

Medical technology--Even if we assume that Section 31 can create a bioweapon that would destroy the YV (a huge assumption), the quickest they have ever created such a pathogen is in the space of YEARS. In that time, the UFP would almost certainly be overrun, anyway. It took the YV less than three months to expand through three SW sectors, albeit ones on the Outer Rim that were not well guarded. Even once they got to the Core Worlds, defended by the largest and most powerful NR fleets, it took them less than two months to conquer this much space (assuming that Duro controls a sector, and the Bimmiel and Coruscant offensives respectively conquered one sector each).

More importantly, it has been shown that the only Section 31 bioweapon we have ever observed is far less effective than the ones that the Chiss created, and took more time to develop. This leads me to believe that the UFP's top bio-scientists are less developed in their methods than the Chiss. Since even the Chiss required the space of months to develop their bioweapon, it can be assumed that Section 31 would require at least that amount of time to do so--time that Section 31 and the NR do not have.

Technobabble--this is a good one. The UFP is good at technobabble, and would be able to rapidly eliminate Yammosk speech. Even if this is true, the YV are still capable of combat, their efficiency just drops. The UFP would STILL need to engage the YV ships, this just removes a YV advantage.

IDF fields--again, even if the UFP used this to the same extent that the NR has been, they would still not be creating an advantage for themselves. They would merely be eliminating a YV advantage. The YV advantage is that they can pull the shields off of their enemies' ships using their dovin basals. NR ships have been able to compensate for this by using IDF to protect their ships, at significant energy loss. If you eliminate this advantage, you are not creating one for yourself (especially since your theory requires that UFP ships lower their shields upon entering a combat zone, anyway, and since you've admitted that UFP shields are unlikely to make a signficant contribution to the combat, anyway).

Section 31s weapon was designed to appear natural if it was selective in that it destroyed all dominoin but no one else it would probably give the game away, the idea was tha it would be a stealth weapon (if the dominion had waited 3 years befor edeclaring war there never would have been one), the weapon was designed to target only a totally aliemn lifeform (check), appear natural (check) yet have a long incubation peroid (check).

You don't need it to kill the Vorta or the JH, you only need them to be carriers of it, and you need the weapon to be an aerosal agent. The goal of the pathogen was to eliminate the Founders. It did so, but it did so very slowly. It did not appear natural--the Founders knew it to be a bioweapon and were trying to cure it--but the weapon did not have to appear natural. It was an effective bioweapon, but it was far less advanced than the agent the Chiss developed. Further, it required years to develop. The UFP could never hold off the YV for that long.

Bashir didnt find a cure by the way he stole one from section 31 and the dominion have been shown to be masters of biological science (building two species and using bioweapons that were designed to also do a specific job and not kill on sight).

And how long did it take them to develop the JH and the Vorta? They could have merely bred existing species selectively to create what we see today. If we accept your method of determining how good a group is at biological science, modern humans would easily be better at it than anyone in ST. We have created hundreds of races of dog, some of which are actually different species. We have created thousands of different races or species of plants, including corn, to feed our population. Moreover, we have altered thousands of different species of bacteria to assist us in our daily lives, AND we have developed biological weapons, some of which can kill only humans, and some of which will kill many other species of animal.

Why are we talking about this though? this isnt Chiss Vs Feds (luckily), the Chiss developed a bioweapon - yipee good for them, it has no bearing on wether the Feds could.

Because the difficulty associated with the Chiss bioweapon demonstrates them to be much more advanced, in terms of genetic engineering, than the UFP is, and one of your scenarios requires the UFP to be superior at the said skill than the NR and its allies. By proving that the UFP is not more advanced in that field, I have also demonstrated that one of your prerequisite conditions for one of your sub-scenarios is invalid.

If the Vong take their time, build up their forces in the DQ and somehow stay bneath everyones radar then they will be able to overun the FKR but not without large loss of Vong life which would land them right in it for when the other races decide to pay them a visit.

I see. So the YV's ability to wipe out the population of Coruscant is nothing compared to annihilating the UFP. That one planet may have had more living beings on it than the entire UFP, and had far greater defenses. The YV wiped out all of its defenses in days, and had destroyed its remaining population beyond the capability to resist within months. Granted, the UFP and Coruscant are different kinds of targets, with one being a single target and the other being a group of targets, but the analogy is not so incorrect. The population of, say, Earth, would be much more easily sought ought and defeated by the YV than the population of Coruscant was, and the same would be true for Vulcan and all of the other observed UFP worlds. It appears from the books as if the YV are more than capable of defeating such easy targets in the space of days, or even hours in certain cases.

OIn the part where you call me a liar (thanks ) you neglect that I said the NR never countered (apart from the rogue ops by jedi etc), this isnt a lie since building defense desnt constitute a counter attack and thats what I mean - the NR didnt go on the offensive.

And what makes you think that the UFP would go on the offensive? We determined in our discussion of Species 8472 that your "correct" modus operandi in the case of an unknown is to retreat to defend a few important targets while trying to gain information. If the UFP were to follow your "correct" method of operation, they would have time to use their very slow warp drives to launch large counter attacks on one--at most, two areas before their three month time is up. Their allies would also be able to launch counter-offensives, but no one in the AQ would be able to launch a large enough offensive as would be required to completely destroy the YV. Remember how little systems mean to the YV--they can always infect another biosphere. If the UFP were to launch a large counter-offensive against one of the YV held systems (we'll say Risa for the purposes of simplicity, but it will work anywhere), then the YV's best course of action would be to simply allow the UFP to retake Risa, knowing that they will never be able to counter the biosphere-destroying agents they have planted there. Meanwhile, while the UFP's fleets are retaking Risa, the YV will be using their FTL advantage to attack Vulcan, or Earth, or some other system that is very important to the UFP. Alternatively, they could attack a group of minor systems and infect all of THEIR biospheres.

On the O'Brien cloak issue - this tech is already in use (Ref Face of the Enemy) the Federation border is littered with gravimetric sensors that could pick up warbirds, however I dont think the tech is good enough to actually target a cloaked vessel just nkow ones near (unless its within rock throwing distance as was the case when the romulans were orbiting DS9).

So it's obviously not been adapted for use in all starships and bases, or they would have already detected the cloaked vessel, right? Incidentally, this further goes to show that the UFP is incapable of adequately mining an area of space to completely prevent the YV from advancing. After years of a cold war against the Romulans, they still have not devoted enough resources to prevent the Romulans from entering their territory unnoticed, despite the existing technology.

On the targetting issue - the weapons targetting really doesnt have much to do with tranbsporters especially since ECM probably goes on during Trek battles and therefore with the Vong not having real ECM (Ref Ender -you have made the big time now ) they should be easier to hit not harder.

Are you saying that it is easier to target a transporter beam for a specific area within a ship than it is to target a ship with weapons? Voyager has repeatedly had difficulty targetting small and maneuverable craft with its weapons, despite their "primitive" levels of technology. Further, I don't believe that "heavy jamming" during combat has ever been cited as a reason to prevent beaming people in or out. Even when the Defiant was beaming out the leaders of Cardassia while under attack from multiple Klingon warships, there was not enough jamming to prevent them from beaming the Cardassians from the starship--it was only the shields that needed to be lowered.

Again staying out of range isnt the Feds only option but its an ok noe to do some damage (imagine the number of transporters on a fed ship - 6 on a GCS plus shuttles, then orbiting docks etc, thats 100s of transporters waiting to act as one shot killers, the Vong may make it to earth orbit but they would loose many many ships while the Feds hide under shields and clean up the biosphere, yes it would be damaging but the Vong would loose a whole lot of ships and gain almost nothing except a few million deads Feds, if this setup ad th Vong attacking teh Federation first like in NJO then those few thousand ships they lost would drain them completely in this situation however they could absorb the losses but could they absorb those losses for world after world?

So it would be basically the same thing that happened to Fondor. The YV only need to destroy a couple of targets, and none of them are Earth. They only need to destroy Space Dock, and whatever other major orbital shipyards are around Earth in order to win the war. Without those staging areas, SF is virtually worthless. The destruction of Space Dock, in and of itself, will be just about enough to destroy Earth's biosphere, even without the YV having to infect the area. Moreover, the YV wouldn't really need to care about their casualties--they're knocking Earth out of the war permanently. You haven't demonstrated that SF could win a stand-up fight against the YV (and admitted that their shields and armor would never stand a chance at warding off YV capital ship weapons). How is SF going to win this one, again?

Conclusion: Vong in this situation may be able to overun Federation but they would be s low in population and ship counts that they would be open to attack from rebel FKR divisions and the other races (not to mention that the FKR could and would denie the Vong there prize with bioweapons, meaning the Vong wouldnt have many slaves to use.

In a situation like NJO (with the Vong hitting the Feds from the get go) the lack of a Vong safe habour would be very costly and as the War dragged on and Vong losses mounted (the Vong would have to curb offensives to non critical targets) worldships would begin to die and the Vong would be forced into some sort of deal or death.

Not really. Fondor isn't the NR's only shipyard, but it was considered acceptable to sacrifice thousands of YV warriors to destroy it. The same would be true of Earth. The rest of the FKR would be powerless to stop the YV, whose lack of a safe harbor would not really come into play. The YV can sacrifice worlds and ships, in exchange for territory, and planets that the UFP would not defend at all would be more than adequate to serve the YV's purposes and needs. The FKR have absolutely no ability to actually retake planets captured and infected by the YV, and their industrial capacity will rapidly fall behind that of the YV. The YV may not have enough warriors to easily take and hold a Galaxy, but it would be exceptionally easy for them to capture and hold the 10 or so sectors that represent the entirety of the FKR alliance, especially since the FKR's ships are less numerous and more primitive than those of the NR.

[TheDarkling]

Transporters - sort range - if you consider 30,000 KM short range then yeah its very short range, transporters dont require great sensor data, in fact beaming outbound can be done with no sensor data, all they need is positioning on YV ships.

Proof that the founders knew the disease was a bioweapon (although I was talking about it being hid from the Fed general popualtion more than anything).

The vorta being carriers wouldnt have worked very well since Vorta dont often visit the founders homeworld (infecting a few vorta was not going to be 100% and the founders may have found and isolated the disease before then - what S 31 did met every single mission parameter and the disease (rather complex as it was) worked like a charm.

Yeah thats right they bred the JH a species comprised of males alone , they were built from the ground up and the Vorta were an orignal species that was heavily modified - Weyoun even comlpains that he doesn have an ability to enjoy art but if that was important the founders wuold have built it into the Vorta - you have seen DS9 right? (we are told over and over that the founders created the JH and that the Vorta were heavily modified from apes or do you think their selctive breeeding programm evolved them in under 2000 yeahs - from apes to men like creatures?) you just raised an entire argument that was clearly wrong.

You do raise a good point however - even today we can produce weapons that target a particular species yet you think its beyond SRF but not the Chiss and their uber bioweapon skills?

Let me get this straight - the CHiss want to make a desert and they do so, the feds want to develope a more refined starter and you think this proves the Chiss are better???? the Feds met their mission goals (alot harder than the Chiss' goal) and yet this somehow means they are lesser than the Chiss- wak up man designed a weapon for use on the founders would be far more differcult than designing one for use on any old race (the Feds have very little understanding of the founders biology and they still manage to come up with this virus in about 1 and 1/4 years (could have been far sooner).

You arent thinking MOO - if every transporter is a weapon capable of a one hit kill then Coruscant was lightly defended compared to earth, this is what you cant get you head around yuo keep thinking NR > Feds therefore YV > Feds but as I have shown the Feds have many advantages in YV busting over the NR meaning that in this case (of Vong killing) in many areas the Feds > NR.

The correct idea is to go on the defensive if you are up against a new enemy that outclasses you badly however if you win early engagements (which the Feds are capable off, (wow I actually heard your NR > Feds mechanism click in then)) yet they have taken a planet from you, you retake the planet since you can fight and win battles.
As for the Feds being unable to counter the Vongs biosphere weapons - why? the Feds can counter biogenic weapons which destroy everything with genes, the NR ran into trouble because a bacta bath wasnt going to help - the Feds have no such over reliance (apart from general medical tech but that will help them here so - blah).
Again the Feds can cover all the important worlds with ease (although they all probably have defense stations and/or fleets like Vuclan and earth do).
The Feds simlpy replicate antidotes to Vong weapons and when the Vong get near (after losing ships to the amazing Shuttles of doom) and release said weapons tjhey release the antidote (or agent etc).

Again you are wrong on this point a Romulan commander believes that the Federation would detect a warbird enetring Federation space - please try again.

They dont have to target a specific arae of a ship - a few MT going off anywhere in the ship is going to ruin everyones day (everyone of the Vong life style choice of course).

Shields block transporters - Vong dont have shields but if you want to state that jamming designed to interfere with transporters cant do just that it only adds to the case for transporters.

Destroying spacedock will ruin earth - planetary shield would prevent this and when SF already has the numbers advantage destroying spacedock wont help the Vong.
I havent admitted SF weapons will be of no use Im still not convinced that Dovin Baslas will affect Phasers and if not then again even shuttles can be of good use, and earth orbit and ground based defenses.

You are still stuck in the mindset of Feds< NR in that last paragraph but earth doesnt = the entire federation and it sure as hell doesnt = the entire FKR.

[God Emperor]

Vong kick ass and decide not to inslave the remaing people and just sacrifice them to Yuum-Yamka(?) glory to the yuuzhan vong

[Master of Ossus]

Transporters - sort range - if you consider 30,000 KM short range then yeah its very short range, transporters dont require great sensor data, in fact beaming outbound can be done with no sensor data, all they need is positioning on YV ships.

Positioning data is pretty much what's required to target a starship, except that the transporters would require a position, velocity, and any maneuvering for a period of about a second in order to properly beam something over.

Proof that the founders knew the disease was a bioweapon (although I was talking about it being hid from the Fed general popualtion more than anything).

Odo joined with the female founder after he discovered Section 31's treachery. The female founder would have known, from that. Even if she didn't (for whatever reason), it should have been pretty damn obvious to the Founders what was going on. In any case, the majority of the UFP's citizenry probably either didn't know that the Founders were sick at all, or didn't really care that they had been infected with a biological agent. The UFP could easily have blamed the bioweapon on any number of different races, but had I been in charge of SF command I would have blamed it on the Obsidian Order's failed attack on the Founder homeworld.

The vorta being carriers wouldnt have worked very well since Vorta dont often visit the founders homeworld (infecting a few vorta was not going to be 100% and the founders may have found and isolated the disease before then - what S 31 did met every single mission parameter and the disease (rather complex as it was) worked like a charm.

Yeah, right. Many Vorta were in continuous contact with many Founders, who did return to the great link. The same is true of some of the JH. What Section 31 did met their mission parameters, but BETTER parameters could have been used. It is easy, in ST, to encrypt a system so that, when another action is taken by a ship, a second action happens immediately thereafter. All that would have been required for Section 31 to get the job done properly would have been to encrypt Odo's visiting spacecraft with a biological agent, and to set the computer to beam the agent onto the planet as soon as Odo beamed down. If it had been an aerosal agent, such a tactic would have killed every Founder on the planet, and had the weapon been better in the first place, it would have killed them more quickly. The fact that the Section 31 virus fit their parameters does not, in ANY way, make the weapon a perfect one. It makes it an effective one. The fact that it could have easily been an even MORE effective weapon seems to have been lost on you.

Yeah thats right they bred the JH a species comprised of males alone , they were built from the ground up and the Vorta were an orignal species that was heavily modified - Weyoun even comlpains that he doesn have an ability to enjoy art but if that was important the founders wuold have built it into the Vorta - you have seen DS9 right? (we are told over and over that the founders created the JH and that the Vorta were heavily modified from apes or do you think their selctive breeeding programm evolved them in under 2000 yeahs - from apes to men like creatures?) you just raised an entire argument that was clearly wrong.

We already know that the JH are just clones. It should be incredibly easy to select the members of only one gender to clone. Selective breeding does account for such a radical change, incidentally. How long do you think it takes people to develop roses? How long did it take us to create a German Shepherd? If you answered less than 2000 years, you are right. Further, your semantics-based arguments are getting pretty old, pretty fast. Founders consider all creatures with our basic shape to be ape-like, thus, the fact that the Founders created the Vorta from an "ape-like" creature is not in the least bit spectacular.

You do raise a good point however - even today we can produce weapons that target a particular species yet you think its beyond SRF but not the Chiss and their uber bioweapon skills?

Again, you are missing the point. The parameter (singular) of the Section 31 virus was that it had to wipe out the Founders. It would have succeeded in doing this, had the war not ended and the cure not been delievered. Thus, the Section 31 virus would have been an effective bio-agent. The objectives of the Chiss bioweapon was not to destroy a single species (the Yuuzhan Vong), but rather to destroy ALL of the Yuuzhan Vong organisms, and to try to return the Galaxy to the way it once was, before the YV arrived. It would have succeeded in this goal, had the program not been sabotaged (it, in fact, may yet succeed, but I find that dubious due to the quality of writing in the series). Thus, it too is an effective biological agent. It is only when you get to the mannerisms in which the two biological weapons operate that we find a discrepency in the quality between the two. The Chiss weapon works faster, has a better method of transfer, and is equally lethal to more species. Thus, it is a more developed biological weapon. You are essentially saying that a knife is as advanced as a nuclear weapon, as both can kill a large number of people. That is true, but the nuclear weapon is clearly more advanced. It kills the people in a quicker manner, and is much more difficult to adequately defend against. Thus, the nuclear weapon is a more developed weapon, though the goals that the two accomplish may be the same. This is another one of those moronic "because Trek does something this way, it has to be the best way possible."

Let me get this straight - the CHiss want to make a desert and they do so, the feds want to develope a more refined starter and you think this proves the Chiss are better???? the Feds met their mission goals (alot harder than the Chiss' goal) and yet this somehow means they are lesser than the Chiss- wak up man designed a weapon for use on the founders would be far more differcult than designing one for use on any old race (the Feds have very little understanding of the founders biology and they still manage to come up with this virus in about 1 and 1/4 years (could have been far sooner).

Again, you are being stupid. I can quite honestly not understand why you think this is a point of contention. The Chiss weapon and the Section 31 weapon are both effective agents, but the Chiss weapon is more advanced. It kills faster, spreads more quickly, and accomplishes its goal. The Section 31 virus also accomplishes its goal, but it is still slower. You have no evidence that Section 31 started with a virus that could kill everything and purposely moved to turn it into a selectively targeted weapon. Regardless, you are still admitting that the SW universe has equally developed biological weapons, at the least. The Emperor's Plague virus was designed to kill only humans, which it did. It was an aerosal agent, and was 100% lethal. This is as good, or better, than the Section 31 virus, except that the target species is different.

You arent thinking MOO - if every transporter is a weapon capable of a one hit kill then Coruscant was lightly defended compared to earth, this is what you cant get you head around yuo keep thinking NR > Feds therefore YV > Feds but as I have shown the Feds have many advantages in YV busting over the NR meaning that in this case (of Vong killing) in many areas the Feds > NR.

No, you're not thinking. Transporters are one-hit kill weapons when they work, but they wouldn't work all of the time. They would have enormous difficulty targeting YV craft, and the amount of damage that they can do is limited by their number and their vulnerability. SF ships could easily be knocked out by YV ships firing from outside of the Sol system. Shots that miss would just hit Earth itself, or spacedock, and then what would happen?

Let's do a thought experiment on what would happen if SF was trying to beam a block of explosives--a one meter cube--over to a YV ship that was maneuvering. The SF ship could target the YV's future position to within a one cubic kilometer volume, and decided to put the explosives somewhere in that area. Assuming that the explosives would be effective only if placed within thirty meters of the hull (or the YV ship would have time to react), then the SF vessel would have odds lower than 1/100 of actually hitting the YV fighter. Now, let's assume that they decided any hit is better than no hit at all, and split the cube into tiny centimeter cubes, beaming them evenly throughout the cubic kilometer. In this case, it is easy to see that the amount of damage done per explosive will be tiny. While one such cube will doubtless hit the YV ship, the question becomes how much damage that one kilometer will do. If I took the amount of pressure applied by the atmosphere to my body, right now, and concentrated that to a single cubic centimeter along my jugular vein, I would die within minutes. Spreading out force exponentially decreases its ability to do damage, and in this case it should be obvious that SF likely has no real means of using your transporter tactic effectively.

The correct idea is to go on the defensive if you are up against a new enemy that outclasses you badly however if you win early engagements (which the Feds are capable off, (wow I actually heard your NR > Feds mechanism click in then)) yet they have taken a planet from you, you retake the planet since you can fight and win battles.
As for the Feds being unable to counter the Vongs biosphere weapons - why? the Feds can counter biogenic weapons which destroy everything with genes, the NR ran into trouble because a bacta bath wasnt going to help - the Feds have no such over reliance (apart from general medical tech but that will help them here so - blah).

How could the UFP win early engagements with the YV? The YV get their choice of targets, at least early in the campaign, because SF would need to gather its fleet, which would take time due to SF's comparatively slow FTL drives. Moreover, the NR also won its early engagements against the YV at Dubrillion, and later at Sernpidal. Guess what--it did nothing. You are essentially saying that the UFP would win because they would do exactly what the NR did. This is the THIRD TIME THAT I HAVE POINTED OUT THAT YOU HAVE THE UFP DOING EXACTLY WHAT THE NR DID, AND I'LL BET YOU STILL WON'T GET IT! I'm tired of telling you this, everytime I claim that the NR did exactly what the UFP would do you say "nuh, uh" and you change what the UFP would do in your scenario to.... EXACTLY WHAT THE NR DID!

Further, I have never yet seen the UFP revitalize a planet that has been destroyed (except, of course, with the Genesis Device), but that is exactly what is needed to restore a planet that the YV have devastated with their biological weapons. In your last post, you simply stated that the UFP would be able to repair a damaged biosphere, and I let you have it because I didn't especially care. Now I'm asking you to point to an example of a biosphere that the UFP has restored within the space of three years (we'll say that the war will be decided in three years, just for the hell of it). Moreover, the YV pathogen is designed to destroy all non-YV life, beginning with planets. Even if the UFP is able to destroy the YV planet-altering life forms, they will still lose all the planet's life, assuming that they are unable to stop the process while it's happening.

Again the Feds can cover all the important worlds with ease (although they all probably have defense stations and/or fleets like Vuclan and earth do).

But their defenses are all weaker than those of the NR's Core Worlds, which the YV captured easily. Look at Duro, or Corsucant. Their ships are weaker, less numerous, and aren't significantly stronger at any major categories.

The Feds simlpy replicate antidotes to Vong weapons and when the Vong get near (after losing ships to the amazing Shuttles of doom) and release said weapons tjhey release the antidote (or agent etc).

And where would they get these antidotes? They would just have them sitting around, waiting for the YV to show up? Further, you are assuming that SF has the industrial capabilities to create enough antidote to prevent a multitude of YV species from destroying the biosphere, AND you are assuming that the UFP would even detect what was going on before it is too late. Remember that part of the NR's difficulty in defeating the YV was figuring out what they were trying to do. Around Ithor, the YV destroyed everything in a matter of hours. The world was devastated. Even on Zonoma Sekot, a LIVING PLANET, it took so much time to even figure out what was happening that an entire hemisphere of the planet was destroyed! Assuming that the YV launched an attack against Earth, the UFP would have just a few hours to: discover what is going on, develop, implement, and replicate a counter to the YV biological pathogen.

Again you are wrong on this point a Romulan commander believes that the Federation would detect a warbird enetring Federation space - please try again.

My mistake, that Romulan Warbird found its way to DS9 without ever passing through UFP space. Further, the fact that a Romulan officer believes the Federation would detect his warbird is almost meaningless, because he may or may not understand the capabilities of the Federation's sensors.

They dont have to target a specific arae of a ship - a few MT going off anywhere in the ship is going to ruin everyones day (everyone of the Vong life style choice of course).

Okay, but they still have to hit the damn thing, in the first place. The Iraqis have nuclear arms that could easily destroy a tank column, but they have no method of delivering such weapons accurately enough to stand a reasonable chance of striking a target. A few kilos of TNT can easily destroy a F-117, but that does not make an F-117 easy to destroy. I have demonstrated that the kind of informational accuracy required to hit a starship is difficult for UFP sensors to obtain, but you still insist that it would be possible. Yes, it would be possible, but this is just another example of the Trekkie "Put me inside the DS reactor core with several proton torpedoes, don't ask how I got there, and watch me blow the whole thing!" You can destroy a YV ship. We're proud of you. Now go through the last three steps that you skipped and find out how feasible your method is.

Shields block transporters - Vong dont have shields but if you want to state that jamming designed to interfere with transporters cant do just that it only adds to the case for transporters.

I wasn't really trying to talk about sensor jamming, I was trying to talk about the accuracy of transporters. Regardless, the advantage works both ways--SF has no method of throwing off YV fire. If we accept your hypothesis that heavy jamming is responsible for most of the misses in ST (although it's never referenced) then we must accept that both sides would have near-perfect accuracy. Again, you have eliminated a YV advantage, but you have done nothing to aid your own side.

Destroying spacedock will ruin earth - planetary shield would prevent this and when SF already has the numbers advantage destroying spacedock wont help the Vong.

Do you really think that the planetary shield around Earth can prevent spacedock from hitting the planet itself? Further, if the YV were to destroy Earth's manufacturing capabilities, then they could simply retreat for a time and wait for SF to fall apart. Its ships have a lifespan of at most 75 years. The YV ships have lived for millenia, already, and although some of them are decaying some will doubtless survive until SF has crumbled into dust.

I havent admitted SF weapons will be of no use Im still not convinced that Dovin Baslas will affect Phasers and if not then again even shuttles can be of good use, and earth orbit and ground based defenses.

I'm not sure I ever claimed that SF's weapons would become somehow less effective when fighting the YV than they already are, but in any case I can't really understand what you're trying to say, with this paragraph.

You are still stuck in the mindset of Feds< NR in that last paragraph but earth doesnt = the entire federation and it sure as hell doesnt = the entire FKR.

Perhaps not, but it is an enormously important system in the UFP. It is the seat of government, and the home to most of the industrial ship-building facilities within the UFP. Its destruction would be a spectacular blow to the UFP and the entire FKR, much like the destruction of Fondor was to the NR. I am in the mindset that the NR is greater than the FKR. I still don't see what is flawed with such reasoning. The NR has greater ships, more ships, and all of your scenarios include the UFP doing exactly what the NR did when it first detected the YV. Granted, the NR's response was laughably poor, but the UFP, according to ALL of your three scenarios, would be equally bad.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: You still arent getting it, beaming down an agent would have tipped off the founders and started a war (turns out they didnt buy much time anyway but at least the war wasnt going on during the borg attack).

If the disease had acted more quickly they wouoldnt have gotten all the founders - the idea was to infect the link and then over the next 2-3 ever founder would link with the link and thus every founder is infected - total destruction of the species and thus the Dominon.

Odo joined with the female founder after he discovered Section 31's treachery. The female founder would have known, from that. Even if she didn't (for whatever reason), it should have been pretty damn obvious to the Founders what was going on.

Why should it have been? however the point was that the war wouldnt have started until the disease became symptomatic - which would give the founders less than a year to live and more less hand the Federation success.
You also cite Odo linking as going against the plan - and your point is? he was never supposed to become infected (or so Bashir wants to believe) but he sure wasnt expected to find out - this poitn has no relevance.

I will deal with the rest of your post later.

[TheDarkling]

I mean Odo was never meant to become symptomatic, he was only supposed to be a carrier.

[TheDarkling]

Weyoun termed them ape like in fact I believe he said they werent capable of speech and were forest dwelling creatures, the Jem Hadar were built from the ground up - if you have evidence to dispute this then lets see it.

The section 31 weapon had to kill a species, a species which was totally alien I might add, do it over the long term and not give itself away as a weapon.

The Chiss needed to develope a weapon that killed Vong and Vong tech, Im getting fed up with this now does an F15 not live upto expectations because it doesnt have a cargo hold from 20000 tons? does it not live upto expectations because it doesnt have space to sit 300 people? because it doesnt have a mini bar? in flight movies? NO because it wasnt designed to be a passenger plane it was designed to be a craft of war, S 31 didnt want a fast weapon it would have been counter productive, it was also for use on a totally alien form of life which puts it a step above the Chiss efforts and introducing it as an aerosal also wasnt productive since S 31 would have tipped its hand even if the cuold find the founders home and used the weapon there (they had no way of knowing the defiant would travel there).

I cant believe you misunderstand such a basic concept - the 31 bioagent does what it was aimed to do perfectly the modificatiosn shuold assume would have been good are all counter productive, the Chiss weaponwas brute force the 31 took more skill - if you cant fathom this Im shocked beyond belief.

You seem to think speed is a key factor - does that mean that a Tank isnt as good at warfare then the holder of the landspeeed record because its slower? no the tank does what it was designed to do, sure you could advance it but adding speed by removing armour (or weapons) is counter productive, again adding speed to the S 31 weapon would have harmed is effectiveness not increased it, next you will tell me a spoon is a poor utensile because it cant cut bread .

You think the YV can attack earth from outside of the sol system - proof of their effectiveness at this range please ( not that it would stop ships simply heading out thereand engaging them).
I agree transporters arent ideal - there would be prolem with small craft being able to dodge but when bomb goes off that the Void or its crew didnt expect (since it came from nowhere) near the ship it doesnt really matter, if they put the Voids at maxium then ships moving at great speeds isnt going to be a problem due to the strain this puts on the dovin basals.

However most transporters are at least capable of 2 (and many 6) objects being beamed at once - 6 torps going off with almost no warning near the ship is going to cause problems.

Fighters couldnt be hit by transporters I never said they could - they could beam them up possibly while they were being deployed or they are caught unawears etc but after that phasers and area detination torps would take care of them.

Lets also no forget that a simple fusion reaction overloaded a frigates Dovin Basals (one of them at least - Han used it Edge of Victory 2 I think it was) although I dont remember the incdient well - anyone remember the exact details?

Would you make up you mind MOO - will Vong take small colonies or do an assault on earth straight away (they dont have the intel and it would take them some time to gather it).

The UFP WOULD counter attack the NR DIDNT counter attack, they didnt win any battles except the Jedi led ones (with maybe a few NR ships along for the ride - ships number in single digits) and again never attacked Vong held space.

The Feds have shown great ability to deal with disease and they can stop weapons that eat genes - the Vong weapon while more specialised does the same sort of thing, once the Feds can look at the weapon they can begin to counter it (lets also remember that the Vong do take many worlds intact and that Vongforming isnt used much especially early in the war.

Coryscant was captured easily? I heard talk of week ,llong battles (I havent finished the book so I dont know) Duro had no serious defense fleet and the planetary shields were lowered - some top defense there .

I have already agreed that the NR failed because it couldnt figure the Vong out and again this is what the Feds deal with or are you aboutto tell me the NR descovered more lifeforms and strange weirdness in its time in power than the Feds have in a similiar timespan.

PS Again decide which attack its going to be would you because here you have them hitting earth again yet further up having then striking at the edges of UFP held space.

The Romulan warbird could have gone through Cardassian spaces - they have formal diplomatic ties so the border is probably an open (plus we know warbirds are sneaked into their space before).
It was a she and she seemed to know that the border was covered with gravitic sensors but by akll means lets imagine that the Feds and Romulans have no intel on each other even though the Romulans got a high level defector at least once and the Feds have operatives on romulus(and the ability to take long range photos of the planet (somehow missing out that pecky light speed thing).

Targetting the bigger KM lenght ships wont be hard at hall, they arent exactly nimbl and you have a wide area to choose from, the smaller ships will probably lead to near misses butthats still going to infer damage (especially if the ships have their Voids on manual as has happened in ever battle in SbS so far (I think the writter missed a meeting)).

Ermm if the Feds have near perfect accuracy and the Vong do aswell (they dont - both sides miss all the time (the Vong miss more often though from reading the books) but I can put the feds down to jamming (they do however hit often), either way lets say they both have 100% accuracy thats point to the Feds since they have the range advantage still.

You want them to hit earth then wait 75 years????? ermm ok this is a third tactic the vong will use, please make up your mind, anyway inside 75 years the Feds could rebuild earth and bring the shipyards in storage to action to pick up the slack, as for spacedock - how many pieces will it be in? if it is in smaller ones they yes the shield cantake it (especially since the ships near earth can tractor away the pieces until he area is ok), one bit pieces could require Starships and the subspace feild trick but it can be done (they moved a piece of a neutron star as I recall one time - im sure spacedock wuld have less mass).

You say the NR has more ships - the NR had virtually no ships available when the Vong show up (they are on peacekeeping missions) and it seems lots of the NR military is actually indivual systems the actual NR navy doesnt seem to be that big (got any numbers?).

Take note of the UFP war on the dominion take not of the NR war on the Vong, the UFP is so much better in its tactics its laughable (especially considering we are talking about the UFP)

[consequences]

Umm, Darkling, have you read any of the later NJO books? your assumptions of NR capability seem to be based on the time when the NR military was being practically ordered not to fight the YV, and was fighting an unknown enemy with unknown capabilities.

[Master of Ossus]

Weyoun termed them ape like in fact I believe he said they werent capable of speech and were forest dwelling creatures, the Jem Hadar were built from the ground up - if you have evidence to dispute this then lets see it.

LMAO! First of all, Weyoun's knowledge of what the Vorta were founded upon is based totally on information fed to him by the same people that want him to believe that they are Gods, but you not only take his word for it, you totally reject the possibility that he was fed misinformation! More importantly, an "ape like animal" that can talk and lives in a forest is basically (trumpet) a PERSON! People evolved in the savana, are ape-like, and are capable of speech. The ability to create a Vorta from a human is laughable. When you consider that it takes less than 100 years to create an entirely new breed of dog through selective breeding, you can quite obviously imagine that it would be fairly easy to generate a Vorta from a human.

The section 31 weapon had to kill a species, a species which was totally alien I might add, do it over the long term and not give itself away as a weapon.

Let's look at how much better a short-term weapon would have been, instead of the long term illness of the Section 31 virus. A very fast (we'll say, six week kill, because that's about what the Chiss weapon was) agent could have been held in reserve, rather than given to the Founders when it was. This would have been an astonishing advantage over what they actually did. What woudl Section 31 have done if there had never been a war with the Dominion? They would have been forced to give the Founders the cure, and admitted the use of a biological pathogen on the Founders. That would have been a blunder. Instead, had they possessed the ability to make a fast-acting, aerosal agent, they could have held it until war was declared, and then released it. It would have killed all of the Founders, and won the war by itself. This would have been preferable in all ways to what they were actually capable of doing. The Section 31 virus was effective. It succeeded in its objectives, but the objectives that it was built for were flawed. It would have been even better had it been designed more like the Chiss weapon.

The Chiss needed to develope a weapon that killed Vong and Vong tech, Im getting fed up with this now does an F15 not live upto expectations because it doesnt have a cargo hold from 20000 tons? does it not live upto expectations because it doesnt have space to sit 300 people? because it doesnt have a mini bar? in flight movies? NO because it wasnt designed to be a passenger plane it was designed to be a craft of war, S 31 didnt want a fast weapon it would have been counter productive, it was also for use on a totally alien form of life which puts it a step above the Chiss efforts and introducing it as an aerosal also wasnt productive since S 31 would have tipped its hand even if the cuold find the founders home and used the weapon there (they had no way of knowing the defiant would travel there).

That's basically what I said when I explained that both the Section 31 and Chiss weapons were effective, but that the Chiss weapon was better. And I can't believe you are saying that the Chiss designed a weapon to target a near-human. The YV appear near-human, but their genetic code is significantly different. It probably doesn't even have the same amino-acids triggered by the same combinations of RNA! More importantly, your point would ONLY be valid if the Chiss bioweapon only affected the humanoid YV. But it doesn't. It also kills the microbes and other things that the YV use--everything from Yorik Coral to dovin basals to worldships.

I cant believe you misunderstand such a basic concept - the 31 bioagent does what it was aimed to do perfectly the modificatiosn shuold assume would have been good are all counter productive, the Chiss weaponwas brute force the 31 took more skill - if you cant fathom this Im shocked beyond belief.

Let's say that Section 31 had developed a weapon more like the Chiss one in terms of time. Guess what? It would have been MORE EFFECTIVE. Section 31 could have waited until the war began to release it, and it would have killed the Founders. Too bad, so sad, the Chiss weapon is better. I can't believe you don't understand this.

You seem to think speed is a key factor - does that mean that a Tank isnt as good at warfare then the holder of the landspeeed record because its slower? no the tank does what it was designed to do, sure you could advance it but adding speed by removing armour (or weapons) is counter productive, again adding speed to the S 31 weapon would have harmed is effectiveness not increased it, next you will tell me a spoon is a poor utensile because it cant cut bread .

Moron, all other things being equal, speed is an advantage in warfare. It is the same in biological warfare. Moreover, in biological warfare, there are very few trade-offs for speed. Nothing needs to be sacrificed to make a weapon more deadly, more quickly, if you do it properly. The Chiss weapon is nearly perfect. It could be faster--weapons can always be faster--but it is highly contagious, one hundred percent lethal, and destroys EVERYTHING. The Section 31 bug is unnecessarily slower and weaker. It is not as contagious (though it did not need to be more so, due to the ease with which Founders can be infected with such an agent).

You think the YV can attack earth from outside of the sol system - proof of their effectiveness at this range please ( not that it would stop ships simply heading out thereand engaging them).

In Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand, a ship outside the Coruscant system fires on a YV ship. It hits the YV ship. This demonstrates that the NR's ships have a range as great or greater than UFP observed combat ranges (and likely much greater). We now have two possibilities:

1. The YV are at an enormous range disadvantage against the NR--one that would be even greater than their range disadvantage against the UFP. If this is the case, then the fact that the YV are easily winning the war up until Destiny's Way demonstrates that the range advantage you harp on is of negligable importance, and can be easily overcome by the YV's advantages.
2. The YV have similar range.

The range figure is backed up by Vector Prime, in which YV weapons accelerate into hyperspace to destroy a flight of fighters. Further, the idea that the YV's weapons (which are basically plasma and projectiles) could lose effectiveness so rapidly as to become useless over the course of a single system's flight, when fired very close to the speed of light (possible, ref. Destiny's Way), is laughable. Ordinarily, against ships, firing at such distance (light minutes, perhaps even light hours) would be extraordinarily difficult due to the problems with accurately targeting a maneuvering enemy. However, if SF is pinned to its planets (as they would be in this campaign), all the YV would need to do would be to hit a planet--not too difficult, since planets do not change course. This would utterly demolish the UFP's main bases of operation, and rapidly bring closure to the war.

I agree transporters arent ideal - there would be prolem with small craft being able to dodge but when bomb goes off that the Void or its crew didnt expect (since it came from nowhere) near the ship it doesnt really matter, if they put the Voids at maxium then ships moving at great speeds isnt going to be a problem due to the strain this puts on the dovin basals.

However most transporters are at least capable of 2 (and many 6) objects being beamed at once - 6 torps going off with almost no warning near the ship is going to cause problems.

Okay, so the odds of hitting a small craft jump from infinitesimal to merely unlikely.

Fighters couldnt be hit by transporters I never said they could - they could beam them up possibly while they were being deployed or they are caught unawears etc but after that phasers and area detination torps would take care of them.

Okay, but the coralskippers would be wreaking havoc with UFP ships, which are unprepared to combat such vessels. It is relatively easy to accelerate a skip to near light speed (ref. Destiny's Way, which reports engagement speeds of near c, even after maneuvering, also, IIRC in Rebel Dream a torpedo is pursued at extremely high speed by coralskippers). The skips could enter outside of a system and set up their attack runs at high speed. Running past a planet, they could easily do significant damage to UFP orbital facilities and ships (or just ram them, as they did during the attack on Fondor), doing tremendous damage to the UFP and its allies for very little cost. This tactic, combined with the one of firing with capital ships from outside of a system, would do spectacular damage to the UFP's fleets without even engaging them.

Lets also no forget that a simple fusion reaction overloaded a frigates Dovin Basals (one of them at least - Han used it Edge of Victory 2 I think it was) although I dont remember the incdient well - anyone remember the exact details?

I don't remember what you are referring to, but I do remember that Han used liquid hydrogen, used the dovin basal's gravity against it to convert it into a miniature star, and hit the YV craft with it, which did disable it. A mini-star at very close range can damage a YV frigate. What does this have to do with the UFP, whose ships are incapable of approaching stars for a long period of time?

[/quote]Would you make up you mind MOO - will Vong take small colonies or do an assault on earth straight away (they dont have the intel and it would take them some time to gather it). [/quote]

They would attack small colonies first and even uninhabited worlds, then attack the main bases of operation. In other words, exactly what they did against the NR.

The UFP WOULD counter attack the NR DIDNT counter attack, they didnt win any battles except the Jedi led ones (with maybe a few NR ships along for the ride - ships number in single digits) and again never attacked Vong held space.

I'm sorry, I seem to remember an incident in Vector Prime. The NR forces, led by the Jedi, lost the initial engagement at Sernpidal. The YV then attacked Lando's asteroid facility at Dubrillion. There, NR forces engaged the YV and won. The NR then counter-attacked, driving the YV from Helska. In other words, they did exactly what you are proposing the UFP do. Except that the attack on Helska only slowed the YV advance--it did not stop it. UFP counter attacks (if any ever happen) will accomplish similar things.

The Feds have shown great ability to deal with disease and they can stop weapons that eat genes - the Vong weapon while more specialised does the same sort of thing, once the Feds can look at the weapon they can begin to counter it (lets also remember that the Vong do take many worlds intact and that Vongforming isnt used much especially early in the war.

LMAO! I seem to recall that the UFP doesn't even suspect that pathogens spreading through a ship so quickly that everyone must be confined to quarters within hours are spread through the air. They clearly don't even have an established protocol down for dealing with such incidents. How the hell can they combat YV diseases from doing the kind of environmental damage that utterly changes a planet's biosphere in only a few hours? Vongforming is used continually, even early during the war. In fact, even before the YV arrived in the Galaxy they had already attempted to Vongform Zonoma Sekot (unsuccessfully). And the UFP is going to figure out how to stop this within HOURS?

Coryscant was captured easily? I heard talk of week ,llong battles (I havent finished the book so I dont know) Duro had no serious defense fleet and the planetary shields were lowered - some top defense there .

I'd like to see Earth fight against a force of so many for long. Remember that Coruscant has thousands of levels of planet, and hundreds of billions of beings. In ONE WING of ONE BUILDING, more YV soldiers were engaged in combat than the Romulans were going to use to invade Vulcan. Besides, what kind of defenses does Earth have in ST?

I have already agreed that the NR failed because it couldnt figure the Vong out and again this is what the Feds deal with or are you aboutto tell me the NR descovered more lifeforms and strange weirdness in its time in power than the Feds have in a similiar timespan.

I'm not going to tell you that the NR is better at exploring than the UFP, but I am going to tell you that the Empire was. It explored dozens of times more territory in six years than the UFP has explored in its entire history. And the Empire explored all of that territory in JUST the Unknown Regions. Now, just because the NR has not been exploring does not mean that they lack the technology to do so. They have merely turned their technology to other uses, such as the project to look for extra-galactic objects in Vector Prime. Moreover, SF's idea of a planetary survey is to masquerade as members of the species the lives there until they are discovered and come into conflict with the people there. Then they leave. They have done that since the time of Captain Archer, through the days of TNG and VOY. It accomplishes next to nothing. An Imperial survey covers vastly more important areas, and is a much more ambitious undertaking. The UFP doesn't "explore" squat. They move from planet to planet, look at it for a few days, decide they'd rather be doing something else, and then leave. That's not a survey. That's just wandering.

PS Again decide which attack its going to be would you because here you have them hitting earth again yet further up having then striking at the edges of UFP held space.

Again, they would hit undefended areas first. If the UFP counter-attacked, then oh well, the YV would just hit them where there ships were not. If the UFP does not counter-attack, then they are equally screwed, because then the YV will just hit their more defended areas after picking off many of their weaker ones.

The Romulan warbird could have gone through Cardassian spaces - they have formal diplomatic ties so the border is probably an open (plus we know warbirds are sneaked into their space before).

That's true. The Cardassians clearly had no method to discover a cloaked ship.

It was a she and she seemed to know that the border was covered with gravitic sensors but by akll means lets imagine that the Feds and Romulans have no intel on each other even though the Romulans got a high level defector at least once and the Feds have operatives on romulus(and the ability to take long range photos of the planet (somehow missing out that pecky light speed thing).

Conceeded.

Targetting the bigger KM lenght ships wont be hard at hall, they arent exactly nimbl and you have a wide area to choose from, the smaller ships will probably lead to near misses butthats still going to infer damage (especially if the ships have their Voids on manual as has happened in ever battle in SbS so far (I think the writter missed a meeting)).

It will be difficult if the ship's defenses are still up. Remember that the YV's ship's defenses increase exponentially as their size rises. In other words, it's much more difficult to target a larger ship, fire on it, and score hits than it is to fire on a larger vessel. Such ships have dozens of Dovin basals, all of which can open up multiple singularities to defend the ship. Moreover, the YV wouldn't even need to engage the UFP's ships in order to defeat them, they could simply fire from well out of range.

Ermm if the Feds have near perfect accuracy and the Vong do aswell (they dont - both sides miss all the time (the Vong miss more often though from reading the books) but I can put the feds down to jamming (they do however hit often), either way lets say they both have 100% accuracy thats point to the Feds since they have the range advantage still.

Oh, wait a minute, the Feds don't have a range advantage. How sad. Their range seems to be rather limited, when compared with YV ships that can fire into hyperspace and possibly even attack ships from well outside of a starsystem, albeit with greatly reduced accuracy.

You want them to hit earth then wait 75 years????? ermm ok this is a third tactic the vong will use, please make up your mind, anyway inside 75 years the Feds could rebuild earth and bring the shipyards in storage to action to pick up the slack, as for spacedock - how many pieces will it be in? if it is in smaller ones they yes the shield cantake it (especially since the ships near earth can tractor away the pieces until he area is ok), one bit pieces could require Starships and the subspace feild trick but it can be done (they moved a piece of a neutron star as I recall one time - im sure spacedock wuld have less mass).

Ummmm.... Yeah, that was merely an example to illustrate how centralized the UFP's manufacturing is. In any case, do we have any idea how strong the planetary shields on Earth are? I would imagine them to be capable of stopping an attack like the Romulan and Obsidian Order attack in TDiC, but probably not great enough to single-handedly ward off a larger fleet for any length of time, because SF was greatly worried by the Dominion's ability to launch an attack on Earth while their fleets were engaging DS9. That basically indicates that anything greater than a paltry force of YV capital ships will be able to overwhelm the shield in relatively little time, and further indicates that Earth's planetary shields cannot withstand the destruction of Space Dock.

You say the NR has more ships - the NR had virtually no ships available when the Vong show up (they are on peacekeeping missions) and it seems lots of the NR military is actually indivual systems the actual NR navy doesnt seem to be that big (got any numbers?).

Wait a minute, they had fleets protecting Coruscant. In Destiny's Way, they had fifty ships in a single task force protecting Mon Calamari, and they had literally dozens of task forces. Did those ships suddenly materialize, with crews, immediately after Coruscant fell? In Tyrant's Test, it is stated that the Fifth fleet is made up of five battlegroups, which are each made up of five taskforces of 20 ships each. Thus, each battlegroup is made up of about 100 ships. In Destiny's Way, Luke Skywalker is on board a ship whose commander is in charge of a fleet defending Talaan, an apparently unimportant world. Half of that planet's defense fleet is made up of three battlegroups (or, about a 600 capital ship planetary defense). In addition to this, there are numerous other groups of ships engaged in the action, drawn from all around the NR. I do not recall a specific number or even an approximation of the number of ships there, but the bait for the trap was made up of a reinforced squadron of 40 capital ships. Later, as the trap is sprung, "one squadron after another" begins to appear. Now, from these numbers it would appear as though the NR fleet has approximately 10,000 capital ships. Half of them are left behind, and a force of 40 ships is insignificant enough so as not to gain any particular attention. Note that such a NR SQUADRON, in SF terms, would be about one third of one FLEET. Of course, this further assumes that SF does not count its starfighters as members of a fleet, although the Dominion clearly does count its own fighters as full ships. And this is AFTER the NR has lost Coruscant to a very destructive war that has claimed vast groups of ships and crew.

Take note of the UFP war on the dominion take not of the NR war on the Vong, the UFP is so much better in its tactics its laughable (especially considering we are talking about the UFP)

What tactics would those be? Have you even been following the series? If anything, the NR's tactics are better, though their strategic deployments are worse. NR ships repeatedly come out on top of the YV, though the YV ships are approximately equal to the NR's own, and enjoy numerous other advantages throughout the series--especially the Yammosks and numbers.

[TheDarkling]

*Sounds of Darkling banging his head on desk*

They would have cured the founders if there hadnt been a war??? you are high right? this is section 31 they wanted the Dominion gone and the shape shifter threat defeated - they would have killed them with or without a war.

The 6 week disease wouldnt have been 100% effective because shape shifters would have survived, the idea was to make sure 100% that the founders died and so the dominion was destroyed, one founder slipping past the net wasnt acceptable - all of them must die thus the long incubation peroid, what arent you getting here?

The Vong are different yes however a human can be converted to have Vong tech and even appear Vong like (brain structure isnt totally different etc) comparee this to gel men - come on MOO you are avoiding the obvious on this issue the founders are far more alien than the Vong.

Again founders in the feild wouldnt have been affected, plus how could S 31 get it to the great link - the disease if as fast acting as you make it out to be may be discovered before it had chance to spread (especially since once the war begun traffic to the GQ was cut off), every founder had to die - what arent you getting here you claim that S 31 building a bioweapon that wiped out the founders is substandard compared to your virus that is the quivalent of yelling -CHARGE and killing one or two founders - this could have been done by special ops, again the founders must all die.

That NR ship hits a WORLDSHIP you know those big honkin 180 Km across things (PS the Dovin basals didnt see it coming) from outside the system with a heavy modified weapon that did very little damage, anyway this isnt about NR range its about YV range - prove or conceed dont tell me they have similiar range prove it.

You are also forgetting that in the start of the war magma missiles (I think, it could be plasma balls) have almost no effect on X Wing shields but I suppose those would outstrip earths planetary defenses right?

Hitting SF HQ wouldnt end a war - the breen hit SF HQ and the war continued and SF has other shipyards.
Running from outside the system - all very well and good but its still going to take an hour or so to reach earth and you dont think starfleet will intercept them in the meantime? I would also imagine that moving at those sorts of speeds puts strain on the Dovin Basla and would therefore require energy shifted from void production meaning the phasers on space dock etc could hit them as they come in (although they wouldnt be able to hit them all).

Again PROVE the Vong haave that sort of range.

The grand battle at Dubrillion involved one Vong warship - wow yeah Im shocked this didnt stop the Vong in their tracks aswell .

I noticed something though when re-reading the Helska battle, an ISD MK 2 pounds the surface wih its main guns and does very little damage - anyone care to tell be how much ice a few teratons/petratons should melt?

No again I dont expect the UFP to figure out Vong forming in hours but I dont expect the Vong to hit erah first giving the UFP time to gether data on Vong forming.
It would seem stupid of the Feds not to be ready for a biological attack on earth but I wont say they are prepared.

Earth has planetary shields (there was a thread on planetary shields in trek, GAT (the main pro wars guy in the thread) agreed some form of planetary shielding exists in trek), there are starfleet troops equiped with Phaser rifles, photnos grenades and Personal force fields on the ground and there are at least ground based weapon and defense installations (Odo says this and also implies that there are orbital stations).
Vulcan also has the ability to shoot down unauthorised craft (Riker confirms this in Gambit Part 2 (these ships/defence stations are under Vulcan control and not SF since Riker contacts I non starfleet memebr to ensure the defense dont fire).

OK SF doesnt explore or engage in science, what the hell was I watching then with TNG?

Your arguments are getting more and more silly by the moment MOO, the empire explored many sectors - given the imperials speed advantage they should have already explored the entire unknown regions (I believe Wong comented on how stupid the idea of the unknown regions is), they are medically dependant on bacta - this is clear while SF medical science is a little more wide ranged.

Yes bigger ships have more Dovin basals but with transporters that wont mater (it may not even matter with phasers) but trying to get a normal torp fired past the Voids wuld be more differcult.

Could you demonstrate the Vongs ability to fire into hyperspace please if you are thinking of those "space spiders" then they hitched along with Kyp the first time (you could be talking about something else however and if you are I could use some background info).

No I dont mean they had no shipss as in they didnt exist just that they had non available to fight the Vong giving the Vong a free hand, also the bulk of the NR fleet seems to be in frigates, blastboats etc with ISD's being rather rare but again the major battles on the lead upto the YV attack on coruscant were attended by very few ships some planets fell with only a few frigates present.
You say the NR has approx 10,000 cap ships well approx figures place the FKR above that (some even place the Feds above that) so the NR doesnt have a numerical advantage over the Feds (at least not by longs although you think the Feds have 4000 odd numbers) and the NR was tied up in other misadventure during the intial stages of the Vong invasion (while the senate still refused to believe an invasion was going on) then it was every world for itself and the fleet was spread too thin (the Feds have more ships than worlds the NR seems to reverse that ratio).

Okay I should have said the NR strategy was weak - they refused to believe an invasion was happening at first and after that they simply fell back until they found themselves at the very heart of the NR by which time the NR was falling apart, the NR didnt seem to gather any major intel (leaving this to the Jedi, where they the best equiped? if so its a sad state of affairs especially since they enjoy no official ties) after 2 years the Jedi is just being to work out how Yammosk speech works even though they have known about Yammosk and what they do for almost 2 years and I dont recall he NR taking action on its own to research this, maybe after the fall of coruscant they get their act together (thats what I have heard) but on the lead upto that it was painfull to watch (threatening civil war to get the senate to admit a war is going on??? yeah thats a great setup, a ranking member of the intel council feeding intel straight to the Vong and so on...).

The Feds went on the offensive many times (the first action of the war was the Feds offensive on a dominion shipyard, they sent an enire fleet behind enemy lines, they took out a key dominion sensors station, a key dominion white facility and so on - meanwhile in a galaxy far far away at the same stage of the war the NR is covering evac transports instead of going on the attack.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*Sounds of Darkling banging his head on desk*

Trying to clear the dishonesty from your skull?

They would have cured the founders if there hadnt been a war??? you are high right? this is section 31 they wanted the Dominion gone and the shape shifter threat defeated - they would have killed them with or without a war.

The 6 week disease wouldnt have been 100% effective because shape shifters would have survived, the idea was to make sure 100% that the founders died and so the dominion was destroyed, one founder slipping past the net wasnt acceptable - all of them must die thus the long incubation peroid, what arent you getting here?

Seems to be the whole bio-weapon argument is quite irrelevent. It began with you, Darkling, suggesting that the Section 31 weapon was superior because of the subtlelty of said weapon...and have now changed that to how alien the Founders are.

The Vong are different yes however a human can be converted to have Vong tech and even appear Vong like (brain structure isnt totally different etc) comparee this to gel men - come on MOO you are avoiding the obvious on this issue the founders are far more alien than the Vong.

Again founders in the feild wouldnt have been affected, plus how could S 31 get it to the great link - the disease if as fast acting as you make it out to be may be discovered before it had chance to spread (especially since once the war begun traffic to the GQ was cut off), every founder had to die - what arent you getting here you claim that S 31 building a bioweapon that wiped out the founders is substandard compared to your virus that is the quivalent of yelling -CHARGE and killing one or two founders - this could have been done by special ops, again the founders must all die.

This is foolish. The Chiss designed their weapon to destroy the Vong and all their biotechnology. That speaks of enormous diversity. Are the Founders "more alien" then the ships, buildings, yammosks, and the Vong themselves collectively?

Also you reach the foolish conclusion that SW bioweaponry is inferior because the style of attack against the Vong might be less effective against the Founders. Well, the weapon was specifically tailored against the Vong, given time to observe the Founders, the Chiss would come up with an equally unique weapon. The fallaciousness of these comparisons and conclusions thereof is astounding.

That NR ship hits a WORLDSHIP you know those big honkin 180 Km across things (PS the Dovin basals didnt see it coming) from outside the system with a heavy modified weapon that did very little damage, anyway this isnt about NR range its about YV range - prove or conceed dont tell me they have similiar range prove it.

You sir, are a liar.

I know you've read up to Star By Star by your own statements. The very first Worldship, in Vector Prime, was only ten kilometers in diameter. The immature worldship at Sernpidal was destroyed by a token fleet involving only a few ships and a Bothan cruiser. It was NOT the size of the Death Star. The very largest was the size of the Death Star I. That, sir, is 160 kilometers in diameter.

NONE was 180 kilometers.

Oh they saw it coming, but they didn't register its mission until it was too late--until they realized that the NR was defending the engines and the guns had been stripped from the Lusankya.

The Starlancer project was ruse. A cruiser outside the Coruscant system fired a few shots at a Yuuzhan Vong worldship in orbit around Coruscant. They were only meant to make the Vong think the Starlancer was being tested and nearly operational.

The NR ranges against static targets are relevent because the Yuuzhan Vong could not have made such ground if they had such inferior weapons. Need I tell you what objects traveling at near C can hit?

I believe it is a DarkStar-esque tactic to demand 100% proof, something that doesn't exist. The evidence is quite clear, but you make unreasonable demands, ignore arguments, lie, or make strawmen out of them. No more nitpicking.

You are also forgetting that in the start of the war magma missiles (I think, it could be plasma balls) have almost no effect on X Wing shields but I suppose those would outstrip earths planetary defenses right?
Hitting SF HQ wouldnt end a war - the breen hit SF HQ and the war continued and SF has other shipyards.

The Yuuzhan Vong plasma blasts and magma missiles can destroy Star Destroyers. They can outfight the New Republic Defense Force. Their range must be comparable and for obvious reasons they must be capable of orbital bombardment.

They knocked out Coruscant's shields, remember?

Running from outside the system - all very well and good but its still going to take an hour or so to reach earth and you dont think starfleet will intercept them in the meantime? I would also imagine that moving at those sorts of speeds puts strain on the Dovin Basal and would therefore require energy shifted from void production meaning the phasers on space dock etc could hit them as they come in (although they wouldnt be able to hit them all).

The Vong ships far outclass the largest Federation defenders in mass, firepower, speed, and defense. Therefore, even if the phasers get through at a significant degree, only if they're affective against dense bio-armor that can shrug off multi-hundred-gigaton blasts. It is obvious they also can survive such hits--or the New Republic even at minimal strength far-outclassed their ships. Only instances of overstrained dovin basals are when they are accelerating while throwing up more and more voids. Once they stop accelerating (ie reaching the target) they can devote themselves to swollowing phaser beams.

Again PROVE the Vong haave that sort of range.

The war would be over if they didn't. Absolute proof is bullshit. You're dodging the issue because your position is hopeless. Been taking lessions from DarkStar?

The grand battle at Dubrillion involved one Vong warship - wow yeah Im shocked this didnt stop the Vong in their tracks aswell .

The "grand" bit appears to be in your head. Much of the New Republic hasn't come to grips with the threat, and the Senate is deadlocked. It is also probable that these galactic rim systems might not be New Republic member systems, or even protectorates. Perhaps just part of the New Republic sphere of influence that the Senate has regarded as expendable thus far. The New Jedi Order is following that battle because it involves the Jedi, which is what the series is about.

I noticed something though when re-reading the Helska battle, an ISD MK 2 pounds the surface wih its main guns and does very little damage - anyone care to tell be how much ice a few teratons/petratons should melt?

When in doubt, bring up irrelevent shit. Has it occured to you that they might have placed dovin basals on the planet to deflect or absorb high power attacks? Or that the Vong creatures are capable of venting excess heat from the planetary oceans?

No again I dont expect the UFP to figure out Vong forming in hours but I dont expect the Vong to hit erah first giving the UFP time to gether data on Vong forming.

Why wouldn't they? The Federation's technology can't fight them on a ship-to-ship confrontation. Earth is about as close to the core as Ithor is. Probably further out. There are few fleets to counter their strikes. Zamoma Sekot was distantly in-galaxy when it was struck. The infiltrators, scouts, whatever would determine a strike there would definitely hamper Federation efforts to stop them. The Federation represents perhaps a few sectors of SW territory. The Vong have conquered hundreds of sectors in a year and a half of war against an enemy capable of fighting them ship-to-ship. They'll overrun the Federation proper before they can destroy all the Vong with a silly deus-ex-machina.

It would seem stupid of the Feds not to be ready for a biological attack on earth but I wont say they are prepared.

It would be stupid of the Federation to design a power source that blows up capital ships if they contract a computer virus, but oh well.

Earth has planetary shields (there was a thread on planetary shields in trek, GAT (the main pro wars guy in the thread) agreed some form of planetary shielding exists in trek), there are starfleet troops equiped with Phaser rifles, photnos grenades and Personal force fields on the ground and there are at least ground based weapon and defense installations (Odo says this and also implies that there are orbital stations).
Vulcan also has the ability to shoot down unauthorised craft (Riker confirms this in Gambit Part 2 (these ships/defence stations are under Vulcan control and not SF since Riker contacts I non starfleet memebr to ensure the defense dont fire).

So? None of that should prove a problem for the Yuuzhan Vong that overrode half the SW galaxy for aforementioned and oft-repeated reasons.

OK SF doesnt explore or engage in science, what the hell was I watching then with TNG?

Not enough to design a weapon like the Chiss in the month (conservatively speaking) it will take the Vong to override most of the Federation's territory.

Your arguments are getting more and more silly by the moment MOO, the empire explored many sectors - given the imperials speed advantage they should have already explored the entire unknown regions (I believe Wong comented on how stupid the idea of the unknown regions is), they are medically dependant on bacta - this is clear while SF medical science is a little more wide ranged.

The Unknown Regions exist, period. Saxton hypothesizes that the galaxy proper has become insular and generally doesn't care/doesn't have any desire at the present to explore the Unknown Regions, which he believes are the dispersed stellar matter in the galactic halo surrounding the galaxy. They are not "dependent" on bacta. It simply works very very well. Strawman.

Yes bigger ships have more Dovin basals but with transporters that wont mater (it may not even matter with phasers) but trying to get a normal torp fired past the Voids wuld be more differcult.

Funny ore, primitive jamming fields, shields, etc, etc screw up transporters. I think spatial distortion and gravitic singularities, as well as exotic organic armor capable of withstanding multi-hundred-gigaton blasts might, just might confuse transporters. And why wouldn't they swollow up phasers? Dovin basals appear to be exhausted only by sheer firepower overwhelming the void. Star Trek does not rely on sheer firepower as oft-stated.

Could you demonstrate the Vongs ability to fire into hyperspace please if you are thinking of those "space spiders" then they hitched along with Kyp the first time (you could be talking about something else however and if you are I could use some background info).

You mean like this?

Grutchins are are also extraordinarily difficult to kill, since they are able to survive not only the vacuum of space but also the physical stresses of hyperspace.

No I dont mean they had no shipss as in they didnt exist just that they had non available to fight the Vong giving the Vong a free hand, also the bulk of the NR fleet seems to be in frigates, blastboats etc with ISD's being rather rare but again the major battles on the lead upto the YV attack on coruscant were attended by very few ships some planets fell with only a few frigates present.

When in doubt, ignore the calcs.

You say the NR has approx 10,000 cap ships well approx figures place the FKR above that (some even place the Feds above that) so the NR doesnt have a numerical advantage over the Feds (at least not by longs although you think the Feds have 4000 odd numbers) and the NR was tied up in other misadventure during the intial stages of the Vong invasion (while the senate still refused to believe an invasion was going on) then it was every world for itself and the fleet was spread too thin (the Feds have more ships than worlds the NR seems to reverse that ratio).

The NR fleet counts include only capital ships. Most of which can destroy thousands of the FKR capital ships. Yuuzhan Vong capital bioships can destroy NR capital ships. Therefore, Yuuzhan Vong capital bioships should be able to have a very favorable kill ratio against the FKR.

You also ignore that many of the systems on the galactic fringe might have been not even NR members or protectorates. Perhaps neutral/independent, perhaps foresaken parts of the NR's spheres of influence.

Okay I should have said the NR strategy was weak - they refused to believe an invasion was happening at first and after that they simply fell back until they found themselves at the very heart of the NR by which time the NR was falling apart, the NR didnt seem to gather any major intel (leaving this to the Jedi, where they the best equiped? if so its a sad state of affairs especially since they enjoy no official ties) after 2 years the Jedi is just being to work out how Yammosk speech works even though they have known about Yammosk and what they do for almost 2 years and I dont recall he NR taking action on its own to research this, maybe after the fall of coruscant they get their act together (thats what I have heard) but on the lead upto that it was painfull to watch (threatening civil war to get the senate to admit a war is going on??? yeah thats a great setup, a ranking member of the intel council feeding intel straight to the Vong and so on...).

While we could mention how the conflict was quite contrived by authors to make more money for Del Rey, that's sadly out of the scope of this rebuttal. Needless to say, I must ask, please talk about the Federation's ability to fight off a much much stronger foe.

The Feds went on the offensive many times (the first action of the war was the Feds offensive on a dominion shipyard, they sent an enire fleet behind enemy lines, they took out a key dominion sensors station, a key dominion white facility and so on - meanwhile in a galaxy far far away at the same stage of the war the NR is covering evac transports instead of going on the attack.

Probably because those systems were not NR members, and/or the Senate was stalled by YV agents and inefficent parliamentary politics.