Shadow Death Cloud vs DeathStar

[Darth Wong]

In B5 they have these magical little things called missiles.....you may have heared of them, they can carry these things called Warheads. Ships launch these things en mass, at a closing Minbari fleet.

Which is already right on top of them, hence the blasts are just as lethal to them as they are to the Minbari. Dumb-ass.

Oh and as the war was nearing an end, EA forces seemed to have no real problem sacrificing themselves in order to destroy Minbari ships. So they just might have detonated warheads in proximity to their own ships.

And their own planets, where the orbital nuclear blasts would cause massive upper-atmospheric ionization effects which translate to monster EMP effects on the surface and widespread burn effects? The genius never stops ...

[XaLEv]

Something no one seems to understand is that I am not some Fiver who is frantically trying to come up with a way for the SDC to win. I realize it wouldn't. My problem is with these utterly vacuous claims that the 'extradimensional blocking component' of SW shield technology enables them to block all hyperdimensions; it extends beyond SWvsB5.

I find it interesting that I have yet to encounter this in any of the debates I have taken part in so far which include multiple hyperspaces. No one has pulled this Parity of Function stuff out during the Empire vs Dahakverse debates, for instance (at least, not like this).

I like the way he assumes that B5 jump technology won't be stopped by SW technology because the SW side has never seen it before.

Almost, but not quite. They have never seen B5 capital ship weaponry either, but I do not claim their shields will be unable to block that, because that would be idiotic. Both operate in realspace, so it is reasonable to assume they can block it. In this case, we are talking about something completely different. Since they do not know about B5 hyperspace, they cannot have designed their shields to block it. It certainly is possible that they could have some property that allows them to block it inadvertently, but they cannot have been designed for it. So far no one has come up with anything of substance to demonstrate that they do do this; just the no limits fallacy and this irrational use of Parity of Function.

Curiously enough, he does not think that SW shields will have any effect against B5 jump technology ... even though the B5 side has never seen it before.

Forgive my sleep deprived mind, but this makes no sense to me. Please rephrase it.

This is why the "they've never seen it before" argument is bogus; it is invariably applied to only one side, when it could always be turned around and applied to the other side just as easily.

Please show evidence of me applying it to only one side.

It's called Parity, and all logical debators use it. Of course, XaLev and SAMAS don't like to admit it, since it often ruins their plans.

Often ruins my plans? Often? Evidence please.

Affirmative. SW ships have complex mass (read the SW2ICS, see "complex numbers" in a mathematics textbook). This means that part of their mass (perhaps the majority of it) quite literally exists at 90 degrees to reality. This may be what "hypermatter" refers to.

Interesting, and much better than all the other 'evidence' provided, but it still doesn't prove that they can block B5 hyperspace. Do you have anything else about this?

[DodoBrd16]

"Which is already right on top of them, hence the blasts are just as lethal to them as they are to the Minbari. Dumb-ass. "
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And ramming your Nova right into the side of a Sharlin isnt just as lethal?

And you also assuming that the Minbari come out right on top of the EA forces.


"And their own planets, where the orbital nuclear blasts would cause massive upper-atmospheric ionization effects which translate to monster EMP effects on the surface and widespread burn effects? The genius never stops ..."
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LOL have you even seen ITB? LOL In the opinion of the President, The commander and chief of the armed forces of the EA, Earth was pretty much already lost.

She wasnt even talking about stopping the Minbari, all she was talking about was trying to buy time for the evacuation transports. And you dont evacuate your home world unless you think its going down.

So if she already thinks its going down, why do you assume she wouldnt just pull out all the stops and try to kill as many minbari as possible? And by yours and others thinking, a few megaton warheads should be more then enough.

[Ender]

XaLev, I beleive that's an assumption when a inter-universe vs. debate is started, isn't it? I.E., ImpStar subspace gear can jam/be jammed by Starfleet gear in SW vs. ST debates? Or is that just something spewing from my demented mind? And even so, when they both call it hyperspace, and use it in the same way, it starts looking like you're trying to draw a line that doesn't really exist.


In addition, even if the above is not true, it serves as evidence that Star Destroyer shields DO have a component out of realspace.

Exactly. Parity of Function. Feddie FTL sensors will pick up ships moving through hyperspace. Mimbari stealth will affect subspace sensors.

It is a basic debating assumption, and one that needs to be inplace for a debate to occur, otherwise you run into the fact that you can't prove anything in a crossover debate.

Look, I'll buy into the fact that I am committing a fallacy is Wong will point it out to0 me. But as it stands now I plain don't see where I made one.

[Darth Wong]

Curiously enough, he does not think that SW shields will have any effect against B5 jump technology ... even though the B5 side has never seen it before.

Forgive my sleep deprived mind, but this makes no sense to me. Please rephrase it.

(sigh) I will make it simple. It is presumed that technology A will be useless against technology B because party A has never seen technology B before. However, one could easily turn it around and say that technology B will be useless against technology A because party B has never seen technology A before. Get it?

Please show evidence of me applying it to only one side.

I just did. SW shields supposedly won't work against B5 ships in hyperspace because they've never seen it before. However, you do not acknowledge that we could just as easily say that B5 hyperspace cannot penetrate SW shields because they've (surprise!) never seen it before.

Affirmative. SW ships have complex mass (read the SW2ICS, see "complex numbers" in a mathematics textbook). This means that part of their mass (perhaps the majority of it) quite literally exists at 90 degrees to reality. This may be what "hypermatter" refers to.

Interesting, and much better than all the other 'evidence' provided, but it still doesn't prove that they can block B5 hyperspace. Do you have anything else about this?

We don't need to prove that they can block B5 hyperspace; you must prove that B5 hyperspace can pass effortlessly through energy shields and hypermatter ballasts. You are making the positive claim and attempting to use it as the basis of an unprecedented offensive tactic; the burden of proof is yours, not ours.

[Ender]

"The Fivers are desperate to find some sort of "trick" to cheat defeat because they know none of the numbers are on their side, so they cast about looking for some kind of mechanism for which no numbers exist and for which they can happily claim virtual omnipotence. They they hang their hats on the fact that we can't prove a negative, ie- prove that it cannot be done. More fun with rabid Fiver "logic" "
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Okay, I'm assuming this but what the hell, being the greatest fan of B5 of this board((thats the assumption)) I'm going to say something.

There is no way in HELL that the younger races of B5 from the freakin Gaim all the way to the Minbari would have a chance in hell of fighting off the empire if it were launching a full blown invasion of the Milky way. Even if the governments of B5 fully united, they still wouldnt have the numbers or the sheer fire power to pull it off. With out First one intervention, their screwed several times over.

And being a fanatical B5 fan, I have yet to hear any significant number of other Fivers say that the B5 younger races could defeat the empire. And I have yet to hear anything like it at B5tech.com

You need to meet Adarx and Adam Warlock then. Both believe that the ISA could hold off the Empire simply by opening jump points inside the ships, and Adam pioneered the idea of shadow ships phasing inside a star destroyer (ignoring the fact that this would result in the ship falling to pieces where the bulkheads intersected with it and effectively cut it apart)

[Ender]

"Ah, brilliant plan. Destroy your own defensive fleet with close-range nuclear explosions. You should apply for the job of EA fleet commander."
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In B5 they have these magical little things called missiles.....you may have heared of them, they can carry these things called Warheads. Ships launch these things en mass, at a closing Minbari fleet. Next we see warheads getting intercepted, but as we all know Minbari defenses arent perfect, because if they were, then SFs never would have been able to slam into them......... now you have dozens if not Hundreds of warheads detonating in a Minbari fleet.

Destroying the fleet.

Mimbari stealth, remember? They would be unable to get a lock for the missiles.

[Darth Wong]

Which is already right on top of them, hence the blasts are just as lethal to them as they are to the Minbari. Dumb-ass.

And ramming your Nova right into the side of a Sharlin isnt just as lethal?

It's only lethal to one ship, not every fighter and capship in the immediate area. So no, it's NOT just as lethal.

And you also assuming that the Minbari come out right on top of the EA forces.

The Minbari DID come right out on top of the EA forces. I have a copy of ITB on DVD; don't try to bullshit me just because you know I'm not a B5 fanatic.

LOL have you even seen ITB? LOL In the opinion of the President, The commander and chief of the armed forces of the EA, Earth was pretty much already lost.

So they might as well cause massive damage and mega-EMPs to halt their evacuation efforts? Yet another brilliant plan from you ...

She wasnt even talking about stopping the Minbari, all she was talking about was trying to buy time for the evacuation transports. And you dont evacuate your home world unless you think its going down.

And you CAN'T evacuate your homeworld if you just EMP'd all of the transports on the ground, dumb-ass.

Enough distractions; this is nothing but a gigantic diversion from the fact that SPK firepower is insignificant compared to DS firepower, and the weapon power required to destroy B5 ships is insignificant compared to the weapon power required to destroy SW ships. The fact that the big new cruisers in "Crusade" drain their entire power supplies after fragmenting a 500 metre wide asteroid (an act which is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE BELOW WHAT SLAVE-1 CAN ACCOMPLISH) is clear proof of that; you are carefully diverting this argument farther and farther away from its origins, with your endless attempts to nitpick "2 megatons" with "but I think they could have used it this way, and they didn't, so it doesn't exist" arguments.

[Vympel]

B5 Crusade? I thought that was cancelled?

[Crown]

Well now that that's setteled, can we go back to JMS quote? Can JP be opened inside solid matter?

This of course assumes that the interior of Sol is 'solid'.

[Ender]

Instead of just pulling the Jedi out and and nuking the Droid army from orbit in AOTC, the Republic deployed forces to fight them on equal terms. So just because they didnt nuke them from orbit, should we just assume that they cant?

More like the Jedi in charge didn't want to slaughter all the civillian Geonosians.

[Darth Wong]

Well now that that's setteled, can we go back to JMS quote? Can JP be opened inside solid matter?

The JMS quote is offscreen hearsay, and even he does not present it as "this is what happened", but rather, as one possible explanation. Do Fivers always resort to this kind of "evidence"?

[Crown]

First off, I am not a Fiver. However I was under the impression that with JMS anything he says is cannon. I don't want to get into a debate about this, but for arguments sake just go on the assumption that if it is true then would or wouldn't it be possible to open a JP inside solid matter?

[Crown]

If you don't want to answer, just PM me and I will shut up, I just want to know whether opening JP inside a star = opening JP inside solid matter.

[Ender]

The JMS quote is offscreen hearsay, and even he does not present it as "this is what happened", but rather, as one possible explanation. Do Fivers always resort to this kind of "evidence"?

They claim that, based on their order of canon, it does indeed count, yes.

[Darth Wong]

If you don't want to answer, just PM me and I will shut up, I just want to know whether opening JP inside a star = opening JP inside solid matter.

Depends on where it is inside the star. There's a point as you approach the core of a star where the density exceeds that of solid matter, although it's never actually solid. The core of a star is extremely densified gas.

But as I said, JMS never actually says "this is what happened", and hearsay is just hearsay anyway.

[Darth Wong]

They claim that, based on their order of canon, it does indeed count, yes.

And where does their order of canon come from? Does JMS say that every off-hand comment he makes at any time regarding B5, anywhere in the world counts as B5 canon?

[Omega-13]

I've been thinking about this thread, and trying to remember all the comments and things from spacebattles where I first brought this debate up years ago, and now I remember some stuff, that might bring light to this,
some 5'ers (dark lord in particular) said that a good way was to bypass the arguement if a jump gate can open in solid matter, and just open the jump gate in the huge void where the main reactor is, the surrounding space, its absolutely massive, you could easily fit a stardestroyer in there,

Since advanced ships from b5 can scan from hyperspace into real space, they'd just open the gate inside the area of the main reactor in the open space

this seems feesable, because jump gates have never been show to be jammed cause of radiation or anything like that

[Darth Wong]

some 5'ers (dark lord in particular) said that a good way was to bypass the arguement if a jump gate can open in solid matter, and just open the jump gate in the huge void where the main reactor is, the surrounding space, its absolutely massive, you could easily fit a stardestroyer in there,

Two points:

1) How are they going to scan anything when the Death Star is putting out such stupendous ECM that it is literally distorting the fabric of space-time? For that matter, what makes you think they can open a jump-gate through that?

2) Why does every rabid Fiver or Trekkie "vs" debater assume that the DS will just sit there passively while people try things on it?

this seems feesable, because jump gates have never been show to be jammed cause of radiation or anything like that

Sensors have been shown to be jammed, and they've never seen anything remotely resembling DS jammers.

More sad, sad Fiver techno-wanking. It's just as bad as the "warp bomb" bullshit the Trekkies used to pull.

[Stravo]

I've been thinking about this thread, and trying to remember all the comments and things from spacebattles where I first brought this debate up years ago, and now I remember some stuff, that might bring light to this,
some 5'ers (dark lord in particular) said that a good way was to bypass the arguement if a jump gate can open in solid matter, and just open the jump gate in the huge void where the main reactor is, the surrounding space, its absolutely massive, you could easily fit a stardestroyer in there,

Since advanced ships from b5 can scan from hyperspace into real space, they'd just open the gate inside the area of the main reactor in the open space

this seems feesable, because jump gates have never been show to be jammed cause of radiation or anything like that

Yep, we've certainly seen the ships in B5 scan from hyperspace and open jump points inside reactor cores, oh yes, the episode where that happens escapes my mind...in fact the episode where they EVER open a jump point inside of ANYTHING escapes my mind...

[Vympel]

Can someone please explain to me what happened in this Crusade show? I heard it was cancelled!

Warp bombs, idiotic tricks involving subspace transporters, warp strafing, opening a jumpgate INSIDE the Death Star- is it just me or does Trek and B5 also attract a lot of Macguyver fans?

[Darth Wong]

Can someone please explain to me what happened in this Crusade show? I heard it was cancelled!

They showed about a dozen episodes before the axe came down. It was actually quite good IMHO. But the uber-Victory ship and its giant compound main gun could only shatter a ~450 metre wide asteroid, which may be heavy shit in the B5 universe and enough to cause heavy damage in the Trek universe, but doesn't count for shit in the SW universe.

Warp bombs, idiotic tricks involving subspace transporters, warp strafing, opening a jumpgate INSIDE the Death Star- is it just me or does Trek and B5 also attract a lot of Macguyver fans?

Those techno-tactics represent the foul stench of desperation. They know they're hopelessly outclassed and they lack the dignity to accept it gracefully.

[Crown]

Can someone please explain to me what happened in this Crusade show? I heard it was cancelled!

Channel 9 ran it once, now it might be playing on the Sci-fi channel, I don't know I don't have cable TV just internet. For all the episode guides, including B5 and it's movies go to the link below;

http://babylon5.cybersite.com.au/lurk/eplist.html

Warp bombs, idiotic tricks involving subspace transporters, warp strafing, opening a jumpgate INSIDE the Death Star- is it just me or does Trek and B5 also attract a lot of Macguyver fans?

Yeah well, if I knew how S:AAB worked I wouldn't put it past me to try something similar either, but hey.

[Vympel]

Yeah well, if I knew how S:AAB worked I wouldn't put it past me to try something similar either, but hey.

Hehehe come now be realistic, I know the Culture would kill Star Wars.

As to S: AAB ... I cannot think of a single trick they'd be able to pull. They have no special tech whatsoever.

[Crown]

As to S: AAB ... I cannot think of a single trick they'd be able to pull. They have no special tech whatsoever.

I know.... *sobs on Vympel's shoulder*

But... even *sobs*... Trek beat-t-t-ts it!

*sobs harder*