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Cost is not the issue IMO. There have been at least two Droid Revolutions of significant impact in the last 25,000 years, and there are plenty of examples of what some sapient droids can become (IG-88 series, HK-47, EVE-9D9.)Ford Prefect wrote:Droid sapience is likely thousands of years old - HK-47 was most definetly sapient, and more human than any other character in KotOR. It is likely that building a droid that is sapient is so easy that the costs incurred in such a process are negligble.
Interestingly, humans are capable of all these things. The most sevre events in Star Wars history have been caused by humans (or at least organics), such as the CLone Wars, the Sith Wars, the Galactic Civil War. From memory I'm pretty sure that there was only one possible droid uprising which could have endangered the galaxy at large, and that never happened (Order 88 and the Living Death Star).Noble Ire wrote:Cost is not the issue IMO. There have been at least two Droid Revolutions of significant impact in the last 25,000 years, and there are plenty of examples of what some sapient droids can become (IG-88 series, HK-47, EVE-9D9.)Ford Prefect wrote:Droid sapience is likely thousands of years old - HK-47 was most definetly sapient, and more human than any other character in KotOR. It is likely that building a droid that is sapient is so easy that the costs incurred in such a process are negligble.
The point is that putting uneeded intellegence into a droid is not only not cost-effective, but it can also be potentially dangerous. Of course humans/organics are capable of such things, but that doesn't mean we put AI chips and self-destruct mechanisms in our toasters.Interestingly, humans are capable of all these things. The most sevre events in Star Wars history have been caused by humans (or at least organics), such as the CLone Wars, the Sith Wars, the Galactic Civil War. From memory I'm pretty sure that there was only one possible droid uprising which could have endangered the galaxy at large, and that never happened (Order 88 and the Living Death Star).
Not really; they would logically have several "classes" of droid brain, like a level 1 brain, a level 2 brain, etc. And they would try to keep the number of levels down to a manageable figure. This would cut down on their costs by a considerable margin. And within that framework, a designer will not have a processor designed with precisely the amount of intelligence that is required for the job (if that can even be reliably determined). Instead, in order to cut costs he will try to use off-the-shelf parts, and he will probably end up having to choose between, say, a level 3 brain and a level 4 brain. Naturally, in order to play it safe and ensure that the droid will get the job done, he'll probably select the level 4 brain unless the bean counters override him.The Prime Necromancer wrote:You make a good point about the tendency to standardize DW, but there's a rather largish difference between having a computer way more powerful than it needs to be to do its job but is still just an unthinking tool, and the SW droid situation.
Don't change the subject; the question is whether they are sapient, not whether it was a moral decision to make them that way in the first place.The former is just a question of efficiency and cost; if I buy a computer that's way more powerful than it needs to be to do the job I want it to do, it's just a question of me possibly wasting my own money, not one of immorality. But creating sapient AIs as slaves with few if any rights owned by me to do menial or dangerous tasks opens up a huge moral can of worms, particularly when said tasks can be performed almost or just as good by a nonsapient program.
All I'm saying is that we don't know how typical R2 is, and we don't know very much about standard astromechs. We don't even know if R2 has his original brain. We have no hard and fast line between sapient and non-sapient.Darth Wong wrote:Wrong. Show me quotes of these long conversations.Anguirus wrote:How about the whole beginning of ANH and RotJ? Plus a fair chunk of the end of ESB.R2D2 and C3PO's long back-and-forth conversations? When did these take place?
My pleasure. I can only assume it's been awhile since you saw the films.
In this one, R2 calls 3PO a mindless philosopher and expresses knowledge of what he's carrying to 3PO. This is already more sophiscated than what we've seen from a battle droid, and it isn't much.
Here, R2 makes a decision, argues with 3PO about that decision, and decides to set off on his own. In the film version, he even seems sad that 3PO's leaving. Alredy, we're past the Five Line Mark established by the battle droid in the Naboo hangar.THREEPIO: Hey, you're not permitted in there. It's restricted. You'll
be deactivated for sure..
Artoo beeps something to him.
THREEPIO: Don't call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight glob of
grease! Now come out before somebody sees you.
Artoo whistles something at his reluctant friend regarding
the mission he is about to perform.
THREEPIO: Secret mission? What plans? What are you talking about? I'm
not getting in there!
Artoo isn't happy with Threepio's stubbornness, and he beeps
and twangs angrily.
A new explosion, this time very close, sends dust and debris
through the narrow subhallway. Flames lick at Threepio and,
after a flurry of electronic swearing from Artoo, the lanky
robot jumps into the lifepod.
THREEPIO: I'm going to regret this.
Here's a three-way conversation with Luke, 3PO, and R2. R2 lies to both of them, tricks Luke, and claims to belong to someone else. In the film version, he responds angrily to 3PO's saying he is "eccentric." At the end of the conversation, he seems concerned about whether Luke *likes* him, and in the film version again seems sad at 3PO's response. Over the next scene (dinner with the Lars family), R2 escapes.THREEPIO: How did I get into this mess? I really don't know how. We
seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.
Artoo answers with beeping sounds.
THREEPIO: I've got to rest before I fall apart. My joints are almost
frozen.
Artoo continues to respond with beeping sounds.
THREEPIO: What a desolate place this is.
Suddenly Artoo whistles, makes a sharp right turn and
starts off in the direction of the rocky desert mesas. Threepio
stops and yells at him.
THREEPIO: Where are you going?
A stream of electronic noises pours forth from the small
robot.
THREEPIO: Well, I'm not going that way. It's much too rocky. This way
is much easier.
Artoo counters with a long whistle.
THREEPIO: What makes you think there are settlements over there?
Artoo continues to make beeping sounds.
THREEPIO: Don't get technical with me.
Artoo continues to make beeping sounds.
THREEPIO: What mission? What are you talking about? I've had just
about enough of you! Go that way! You'll be malfunctioning within a
day, you nearsighted scrap pile!
Threepio gives the little robot a kick and starts off in
the direction of the vast dune sea.
THREEPIO: And don't let me catch you following me begging for help,
because you won't get it.
Artoo's reply is a rather rude sound. He turns and trudges
off in the direction of the towering mesas.
THREEPIO: No more adventures. I'm not going that way.
Artoo beeps to himself as he makes his way toward the
distant mountains.
Shall I find more examples, or is this fine for now? I'll even throw in the beginning of RotJ:LEIA: Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.
LUKE: What's this?
Artoo looks around and sheepishly beeps an answer for
Threepio to translate. Leia continues to repeat the sentence
fragment over and over.
THREEPIO: What is what?!? He asked you a question...(pointing to Leia)
What is that?
Artoo whistles his surprise as he pretends to just notice
the hologram. He looks around and sheepishly beeps an answer
for Threepio to translate. Leia continues to repeat the
sentence fragment over and over.
LEIA: Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. Help me, Obi-Wan
Kenobi. You're my only hope.
THREEPIO: Oh, he says it's nothing, sir. Merely a malfunction. Old
data. Pay it no mind.
Luke becomes intrigued by the beautiful girl.
LUKE: Who is she? She's beautiful.
THREEPIO: I'm afraid I'm not quite sure, sir.
LEIA: Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi...
THREEPIO: I think she was a passenger on our last voyage. A person of
some importance, sir -- I believe. Our captain was attached to...
LUKE: Is there more to this recording?
Luke reaches out for Artoo but he lets out several frantic
squeaks and a whistle.
THREEPIO: Behave yourself, Artoo. You're going to get us in trouble.
It's all right, you can trust him. He's our new master.
Artoo whistles and beeps a long message to Threepio.
THREEPIO: He says he's the property of Obi-Wan Kenobi, a resident of
these parts. And it's a private message for him. Quite frankly, sir I
don't know what he's talking about. Our last master was Captain
Antilles, but with what we've been through, this little R2 unit has
become a bit eccentric.
LUKE: Obi-Wan Kenobi? I wonder if he means old Ben Kenobi?
THREEPIO: I beg your pardon, sir, but do you know what he's talking
about?
LUKE: Well, I don't know anyone named Obi-Wan, but old Ben lives out
beyond the dune sea. He's kind of a strange old hermit.
Luke's gazes at the beautiful young princess for a few
moments.
LUKE: I wonder who she is. It sounds like she's in trouble. I'd better
play back the whole thing.
Artoo beeps something to Threepio.
THREEPIO: He says the restraining bolt has short circuited his
recording system. He suggests that if you remove the bolt, he might be
able to play back the entire recording.
Luke looks longingly at the lovely, little princess and
hasn't really heard what Threepio has been saying.
LUKE: H'm? Oh, yeah, well, I guess you're too small to run away on me
if I take this off! Okay.
Luke takes a wedged bar and pops the restraining bolt off
Artoo's side.
LUKE: There you go.
The princess immediately disappears...
LUKE: Well, wait a minute. Where'd she go? Bring her back! Play back
the entire message.
Artoo beeps an innocent reply as Threepio sits up in
embarrassment.
THREEPIO: What message? The one you're carrying inside your rusty
innards!
A women's voice calls out from another room.
AUNT BERU: Luke? Luke! Come to dinner!
Luke stands up and shakes his head at the malfunctioning
robot.
LUKE: All right, I'll be right there, Aunt Beru.
THREEPIO: I'm sorry, sir, but he appears to have picked up a slight
flutter.
Luke tosses Artoo's restraining bolt on the workbench and
hurries out of the room.
LUKE: Well, see what you can do with him. I'll be right back.
THREEPIO: (to Artoo) Just you reconsider playing that message for him.
Artoo beeps in response.
THREEPIO: No, I don't think he likes you at all.
Artoo beeps.
THREEPIO: No, I don't like you either.
A lonely, windswept road meanders through the desolate Tatooine
terrain. We HEAR a familiar BEEPING and a distinctive reply
before catching sight of ARTOO-DETOO and SEE-THREEPIO, making
their way along the road toward the ominous palace of Jabba the
Hutt.
THREEPIO
Of course I'm worried. And you should be,
too. Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca
never returned from this awful place.
Artoo whistles timidly.
THREEPIO
Don't be so sure. If I told you half the
things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt,
You'd probably short-circuit.
The two droids fearfully approach the massive gate to the palace.
THREEPIO
Artoo, are you sure this is the right place?
I better knock, I suppose.
6 EXT JABBA'S PALACE - GATE 6
Threepio looks around for some kind of signaling device, then
timidly knocks on the iron door.
THREEPIO (instantly)
There doesn't seem to be anyone there. Let's
go back and tell Master Luke.
A small hatch in the middle of the door opens and a spidery
mechanical arm, with a large electronic eyeball on the end, pops
out and inspects the two droids.
STRANGE VOICE
Tee chuta hhat yudd!
THREEPIO
Goodness gracious me!
Threepio points to Artoo, then to himself.
THREEPIO
Artoo Detoowha bo Seethreepiowha ey toota odd
mischka Jabba du Hutt.
The eye looks from one robot to the other, there is a laugh then
the eye zips back into the door. The hatch slams shut. Artoo
beeps his concern.
THREEPIO
I don't think they're going to let us in,
Artoo. We'd better go.
Artoo beeps his reluctance as Threepio turns to leave. Suddenly
the massive door starts to rise with a horrific metallic SCREECH.
The robots turn back and face an endless black cavity. The droids
look at one another, afraid to enter.
Artoo starts forward into the gloom. Threepio rushes after his
stubby companion. The door lowers noisily behind them.
THREEPIO
Artoo, wait. Oh, dear! Artoo. Artoo, I really
don't think we should rush into all this.
Artoo continues down the corridor, with Threepio following.
THREEPIO
Oh, Artoo! Artoo, wait for me!
7 INT JABBA'S PALACE - HALLWAY 7
The door slams shut with a loud crash that echoes throughout the
dark passageway. The frightened robots are met by two giant,
green GAMORREAN GUARDS, who fall in behind them. Threepio glances
quickly back at the two lumbering brutes, then back to Artoo. One
guard grunts an order. Artoo beeps nervously.
THREEPIO
Just you deliver Master Luke's message and
get us out of here. Oh my! Oh! Oh, no.
Walking toward them out of the darkness is BIB FORTUNA, a
humanlike alien with long tentacles protruding from his skull.
BIB
Die Wanna Wanga!
THREEPIO
Oh, my! Die Wanna Wauaga. We -- we bring a
message to your master, Jabba the Hutt.
Artoo lets out a series of quick beeps.
THREEPIO (cont)
... and a gift.
(thinks a moment, then to Artoo)
Gift, what gift?
Bib shakes his head negatively.
BIB
Nee Jabba no badda. Me chaade su goodie.
Bib holds out his hand toward Artoo and the tiny droid backs up a
bit, letting out a protesting array of squeaks. Threepio turns to
the strange-looking alien.
THREEPIO
He says that our instructions are to give it
only to Jabba himself.
Bib thinks about this for a moment.
THREEPIO
I'm terribly sorry. I'm afraid he's ever so
stubborn about these sort of things.
Bib gestures for the droids to follow.
BIB
Nudd Chaa.
The droids follow the tall, tentacled alien into the darkness,
trailed by the two guards.
THREEPIO
Artoo, I have a bad feeling about this.
8 INT JABBA'S THRONE ROOM 8
The throne room is filled with the vilest, most grotesque
CREATURES ever conceived in the universe. Artoo and Threepio seem
very small as they pause in the doorway to the dimly lit chamber.
Light shafts partially illuminate the drunken courtiers as Bib
Fortuna crosses the room to the platform upon which rests the
leader of this nauseating crowd: JABBA THE HUTT. The monarch of
the galactic underworld is a repulsive blob of bloated fat with a
maniacal grin. Chained to the horrible creature is the beautiful
alien female dancer named OOLA. At the foot of the dais sits an
obnoxious birdlike creature, SALACIOUS CRUMB. Bib whispers
something in the slobbering degenerate's ear. Jabba laughs
horribly, at the two terrified droids before him. Threepio bows
politely.
THREEPIO
Good morning.
JABBA
Bo Shuda!
The robots jump forward to stand before the repulsive, loose-
skinned villain.
THREEPIO
The message, Artoo, the message.
Artoo whistles, and a beam of light projects from his domed head,
creating a HOLOGRAM of LUKE on the floor. The image grows to over
ten feet tall, and the young Jedi towers over the space
gangsters.
LUKE
Greetings, Exalted One. Allow me to introduce
myself. I am Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and
friend to Captain Solo. I know that you are
powerful, mighty Jabba, and that your anger
with Solo must be equally powerful. I seek an
audience with Your Greatness to bargain for
Solo's life. (Jabba's crowd laughs) With your
wisdom, I'm sure that we can work out an
arrangement which will be mutually beneficial
and enable us to avoid any unpleasant
confrontation. As a token of my goodwill, I
present to you a gift: these two droids.
Threepio is startled by this announcement.
THREEPIO
What did he say?
LUKE (cont)
... Both are hardworking and will serve you
well.
THREEPIO
This can't be! Artoo, you're playing the
wrong message.
Luke's hologram disappears.
Jabba laughs while Bib speaks to him in Huttese.
JABBA (in Huttese subtitled)
There will be no bargain.
THREEPIO
We're doomed.
JABBA (in Huttese subtitled)
I will not give up my favorite decoration. I
like Captain Solo where he is.
Jabba laughs hideously and looks toward an alcove beside the
throne. Hanging high, flat against the wall, exactly as we saw
him last, is a carbonized HAN SOLO.
THREEPIO
Artoo, look! Captain Solo. And he's still
frozen in carbonite.
9 INT DUNGEON CORRIDOR 9
One of Jabba's Gamorrean guards marches Artoo and Threepio down a
dank, shadowy passageway lined with holding cells. The cries of
unspeakable creatures bounce off the cold stone walls.
Occasionally a repulsive arm or tentacle grabs through the bars
at the hapless droids. Artoo beeps pitifully.
THREEPIO
What could possibly have come over Master
Luke. Is it something I did? He never
expressed any unhappiness with my work. Oh!
Oh! Hold it! Ohh!
A large tentacle wraps around Threepio's neck. He manages to
break free, and they move on to a door at the end of the
corridor.
10 INT BOILER ROOM 10
The door slides open, revealing a room filled with steam and
noisy machinery. The guard motions them into the boiler room,
where they are met by a tall, thin humanlike robot named EV-9D9
(EVE-NINEDENINE). Behind the robot can be seen a torture rack
pulling the legs off a screaming baby work droid. A second
power droid is upside down. As smoking branding irons are
pressed into his feet, the stubby robot lets out an agonized
electronic scream. Artoo and Threepio cringe as the guard grunts
to EV-9D9.
NINEDENINE
Ah, good. New acquisitions. You are a
protocol droid, are you not?
THREEPIO
I am See-Threepio, human-cy...
NINEDENINE
Yes or no will do.
THREEPIO
Oh. Well, yes.
NINEDENINE
How many languages do you speak?
THREEPIO
I am fluent in over six million forms of
communication, and can readily...
NINEDENINE
Splendid! We have been without an interpreter
since our master got angry with our last
protocol droid and disintegrated him.
THREEPIO
Disintegrated?
NINEDENINE (to a Gamorrean guard)
Guard! This protocol droid might be useful.
Fit him with a restraining bolt and take him
back to His Excellency's main audience
chamber.
The guard shoves Threepio toward the door.
THREEPIO (disappearing)
Artoo, don't leave me! Ohhh!
Artoo lets out a plaintive cry as the door closes. Then he beeps
angrily.
NINEDENINE
You're a feisty little one, but you'll soon
learn some respect. I have need for you on
the master's Sail Barge. And I think you'll
fit in nicely.
The poor work droid in the background lets out another tortured
electronic scream.The conversation occurs as R2 leaves the ship. A battle droid would not have shown the initiative that R2 does, and indeed, neither does 3PO at first.So it is implied that R2 suggested leaving the ship, and this counts as a long conversation?They spend a fair amount of time bickering in AotC.
The reason why it's a back-and-forth is because R2 s clearly introducing IDEAS, which C-3PO is then RESPONDING to.
I.e. in AotC, R2 continually insists that they leave the ship to help Padme and Anakin. "For a mechanic you seem to do an excessive amount of THINKING."
"If they wanted our help, they would have asked for it."
They continue to exchange insults all the way out the door.
R2 expresses pain and blames 3PO for not pointing out that it was a power terminal. This was not meant to be an example of a long conversation, by the by, it was an example of something that R2 has done that a battle droid hasn't, to my knowledge. Nothing even resembling the R2-3PO relationship has been observed with a battle droid.R2D2 expresses pain, and that constitutes a long conversation?In ESB, R2 is clearly upset at being shocked by the power terminal, and C-3PO RESPONDS to him: "Don't blame me. I'm an interpreter. How am I supposed to know the difference between a power outlet and a computer terminal?"
See above. I'm talking about the argument that the two of them have, and I find it extremely difficult to believe that you do not realize that.R2D2 has identified settlements, and this constitutes a long conversation?Nearly all the dialogue in the first quarter of ANH is between R2 and 3PO. R2 decides to go in a particular direction and DEFENDS HIS DECISION. "What makes you think there are settlements over there?...Don't get technical with me."
Your claim that battle droids and R2 are on a remotely similar level of sapience in the films is itself bullshit. I've shown you plenty of stuff with R2 thatshows much more advanced thought then any of my given battle droid examples, and no one has advanced anything I've forgotten.And all of it is bullshit. None of these scenes constitute a long conversation, and you are a liar.
That's obviously wrong. R2 makes a subjective value judgement. "3PO has looked better." No battle droid has doe this. R2 questions the wisdom and actions of his master. No battle droid has done this. Your knee-jerk response desn't change the fact that OF COURSE that requires more intelligence that battle droid conversation. "Check it out, Corporal. We'll cover you." "Roger, roger." "Uh-oh." "Blast them!"None of these conversations indicate that R2D2 is saying anything requiring more intelligence than battledroid conversation.Heck, in a few cases inference tells us EXACTLY what R2 is saying. When 3PO says "Of course I've looked better" he's obviously responding to..."You've looked better." A translated readout of R2's statements is made available to Luke in some scenes, and they have a back and forth..."We're not going to regroup with the others. We're going to the Dagobah system...Yes, I'm sure it's perfectly safe for droids." Later Luke admits, "You thought coming here was a bad idea...I'm beginning to agree with you."
I'd love to go there. Any canon evidence for battle droid sapience blows my whole argument out of the water, and I would readily concede. I just don't remember anything to that effect. Care to provide examples or quotes?If you bring up the novels, then you introduce lots of evidence for droid sapience, so I don't see why you want to go there.Come to think of it, in TPM Anakin has a readout of R2's statements, and the droid makes a recommendation...that he go back.
Several of R2's lines are translated into English for the reader of the RotS novel, including an ENTIRE conversation with 3PO in which R2 expresses concern about Anakin's actions and emotional state.
I didn't realize that you wanted examples of the conversations, since anyone who watched the films should easily recall them. Nevertheless, I have rectified this above.Pity you haven't provided this evidence. When asked to provide examples of long conversations, you provided examples of single linesGood luck. There's a hell of a lot more evidence in R2's case. If battle droids showed half of this guy's initiative and intelligence, I wouldn't be questioning your assumption.
What mission parameters? He's not Padme's bodyguard. Padme hasn't asked him to do anything. A battle droid in the situation would have obvious mission parameters, and already be in combat.He is attempting to fulfill his mission parameters, just like a battledroid who recovers after the control ship is shut down and decides to continue trying to kill Jedi.He takes initiative in AotC, arguing with 3PO about leaving the ship, doing so, shoving 3PO out a door in order to fly to a control console and manipulate the factory controls in order to save his master, Padme. This is without being asked, or even sure that Padme WOULD be in danger that he could help her with.
I don't believe he ever says this, no.But at no point does he believe that its brain is of a completely different class than other astromechs.
More complex than we've ever seen in a battle droid, certainly. In the comlink example, he remembers something that 3PO has forgotten and expresses this to him. upon reflection, I guess going after Kenobi doesn't show us very much.And these constitute tasks requiring complex intelligence?In ANH, he disobeys Luke and strikes out in search of Kenobi alone. He also tells 3PO to "use the comlink," reminding him that he has turned it off.
R2 didn't HAVE a mission at this point. He's just trying to figure out how to find Luke. I consider that more complex than a battle droid continuing to shoot things when it stops recieving instructions.The ability to continue attempting to carry out a mission is proof of complex intelligence when R2 does it, but not when battledroids do it?In ESB, when cut off from Luke he searches for and finds some of Luke's allies. Perhaps he figured that that was his best chance of finding Luke again.
Conceded on the "attacking." Believe it or not, I realy don't have an agenda here. I'm just not totally convinced that battle droids are sapient. I am convinced that R2 ad 3PO are sapient, which is why the discussion has moved to them.You are seriously arguing that the kind of thing a bird would do is proof of sapient intelligence? Thanks for proving my point: you adjust your standard of "intelligence" depending on what you want to be true.
You can't "modify" a non-sapient brain to become sapient. That is more like a complete replacement of all its processing hardware.Addressing the last part of your statement, astromech droids aren't built in the quintillions, and they need to be pretty smart in order to be useful fixing and flying a large number of ships. In addition, R2 is a decidedly non-standard example, having been heavily modified by the Royal Enginners on Naboo (and god knows who else).
I thought that both hardware *and* software would play a role in determing whether a droid is or would become sapient.Darth Wong wrote: Not really; they would logically have several "classes" of droid brain, like a level 1 brain, a level 2 brain, etc. And they would try to keep the number of levels down to a manageable figure. This would cut down on their costs by a considerable margin. And within that framework, a designer will not have a processor designed with precisely the amount of intelligence that is required for the job (if that can even be reliably determined). Instead, in order to cut costs he will try to use off-the-shelf parts, and he will probably end up having to choose between, say, a level 3 brain and a level 4 brain. Naturally, in order to play it safe and ensure that the droid will get the job done, he'll probably select the level 4 brain unless the bean counters override him.
So you actually do believe that sapience is a requirement for the battledroids? I would like to hear what droid/AI jobs you think require sapience and which can just be programs without personalities.A battledroid must have fairly high intelligence; while it is often joked that a soldier is a mindless automaton, this is simply not the case. There is no animal on Earth which is smart enough to be a soldier other than a human, which means that, at a minimum, battledroids are smarter than every non-human animal on Earth. And we already have moral qualms about mistreating many higher-order animals because we consider them sapient or near-sapient, don't we?
Well, since I've already said that yes, I think they're sapient, there's not much more for me to say on that matter. Plus, 18's opening post seems to be "assuming they're sapient, is shutting them down murder?", making the whole "are they sapient" debate itself a highjack of sorts.Don't change the subject; the question is whether they are sapient, not whether it was a moral decision to make them that way in the first place.
Either that or you are setting a very low bar for "long conversations".Anguirus wrote:I can only assume it's been awhile since you saw the films.
That's a long or complex conversation? And how do you count six lines there anyway, as if six or even a dozen lines equals a long conversation?Here, R2 makes a decision, argues with 3PO about that decision, and decides to set off on his own. In the film version, he even seems sad that 3PO's leaving. Alredy, we're past the Five Line Mark established by the battle droid in the Naboo hangar.<snip Tantive IV bit>
And what kind of complex thoughts are expressed in this conversation other than making a decision to move in a certain direction? Oh that's right, none whatsoever.<snip Tatooine desert bit>
For one thing, you seem to think short one-line answers to questions constitute complex conversation; we have fucking chatbots on the Internet right now that can easily do that. For another, you seem to think that Artoo carrying out his mission is proof of sapience; it is not. And finally, you keep using emotional or seemingly emotional reactions on R2's part as proof of sapience, even though you dismiss fear and sarcasm on the part of battledroids as proof of same.Here's a three-way conversation with Luke, 3PO, and R2. R2 lies to both of them, tricks Luke, and claims to belong to someone else. In the film version, he responds angrily to 3PO's saying he is "eccentric." At the end of the conversation, he seems concerned about whether Luke *likes* him, and in the film version again seems sad at 3PO's response. Over the next scene (dinner with the Lars family), R2 escapes.<snip Leia hologram bit>
Thanks for demonstrating your amazing copy and paste skills; too bad you still haven't addressed the point; R2 does nothing here but emit short one-line responses to queries like any AI would, occasionally display emotion (which you have already dismissed when it's observed in battledroids), and attempt to carry out his mission. Don't fool yourself into thinking that sheer volume of text will cloak your failure to back up your point.Shall I find more examples, or is this fine for now? I'll even throw in the beginning of RotJ:<snip Jabba intro scene>
So R2 attempted to carry out his standing orders of protecting Amidala, and this is proof of sapience? But when battledroids similarly take initiative when carrying out standing orders (eg- attacking Jedi boarding parties in the Invisible Hand's hangar without specific orders), that doesn't count?The conversation occurs as R2 leaves the ship. A battle droid would not have shown the initiative that R2 does, and indeed, neither does 3PO at first.So it is implied that R2 suggested leaving the ship, and this counts as a long conversation?
This is part of your newly added criteria of "must show onscreen friendship", which is not part of the definition of sapience and which was obviously added by you as a clumsy ad hoc way of finding a sapience criteria which will suit R2 but not a battledroid. Stop moving the goalposts. Despite your pathetic "quote a whole shitload of stuff and hope that bowls people into submission" tactic, you have not demonstrated that R2 can carry on a particularly complex conversation or have any particularly intelligent thoughts; your proof of his intelligence is one-line answers, combat initiative, and emotion: all of which battledroids have also demonstrated.R2 expresses pain and blames 3PO for not pointing out that it was a power terminal. This was not meant to be an example of a long conversation, by the by, it was an example of something that R2 has done that a battle droid hasn't, to my knowledge. Nothing even resembling the R2-3PO relationship has been observed with a battle droid.R2D2 expresses pain, and that constitutes a long conversation?
Once again, stop moving the goalposts; your original criteria of sapience never specified that we had to see people bickering in order to conclude that they are sapient, and the definition of sapience contains no such requirement.See above. I'm talking about the argument that the two of them have, and I find it extremely difficult to believe that you do not realize that.R2D2 has identified settlements, and this constitutes a long conversation?
No you haven't; you have only quoted large amounts of text and hoped that this would accomplish the same thing. Most of this conversation comes from C3PO, and R2 offers only one-line statements, most of which are simple answers to queries.Your claim that battle droids and R2 are on a remotely similar level of sapience in the films is itself bullshit. I've shown you plenty of stuff with R2 thatshows much more advanced thought then any of my given battle droid examples, and no one has advanced anything I've forgotten.And all of it is bullshit. None of these scenes constitute a long conversation, and you are a liar.
The ability to make a descriptive statement about observations constitutes sapience now? Great: battledroids are definitely sapient.Heck, in a few cases inference tells us EXACTLY what R2 is saying. When 3PO says "Of course I've looked better" he's obviously responding to..."You've looked better."
What about that constitutes any more complex thought than the ability to converse fluently, accurately identify friend from foe, describe tactical situations to superior officers, give orders to other droids, make fun of rebels trying to bullshit their way past you, show sarcasm, etc?translated readout of R2's statements is made available to Luke in some scenes, and they have a back and forth..."We're not going to regroup with the others. We're going to the Dagobah system...Yes, I'm sure it's perfectly safe for droids." Later Luke admits, "You thought coming here was a bad idea...I'm beginning to agree with you."
And battledroids have abandoned their posts to run from danger; R2 has never done this. See, it's easy to play this game, isn't it?That's obviously wrong. R2 makes a subjective value judgement. "3PO has looked better." No battle droid has doe this. R2 questions the wisdom and actions of his master. No battle droid has done this. Your knee-jerk response desn't change the fact that OF COURSE that requires more intelligence that battle droid conversation. "Check it out, Corporal. We'll cover you." "Roger, roger." "Uh-oh." "Blast them!"None of these conversations indicate that R2D2 is saying anything requiring more intelligence than battledroid conversation.
Using your criteria in which emotion, the ability to act on standing orders without specific instructions, and the ability to give one-line answers to questions constitute evidence of sapience, I have already done so. The problem is that your criteria shift like the sands of Tatooine.I'd love to go there. Any canon evidence for battle droid sapience blows my whole argument out of the water, and I would readily concede. I just don't remember anything to that effect. Care to provide examples or quotes?If you bring up the novels, then you introduce lots of evidence for droid sapience, so I don't see why you want to go there.Come to think of it, in TPM Anakin has a readout of R2's statements, and the droid makes a recommendation...that he go back.
Several of R2's lines are translated into English for the reader of the RotS novel, including an ENTIRE conversation with 3PO in which R2 expresses concern about Anakin's actions and emotional state.
Would R2 not have standing orders to protect Amidala?What mission parameters? He's not Padme's bodyguard. Padme hasn't asked him to do anything. A battle droid in the situation would have obvious mission parameters, and already be in combat.He is attempting to fulfill his mission parameters, just like a battledroid who recovers after the control ship is shut down and decides to continue trying to kill Jedi.
In addition to being able to converse fluently, battledroids can operate a wide variety of equipment (ranging from piloting a starship to operating cannons, piloting vehicles, etc): something R2 cannot do. It would take a long time to train a human to operate that variety of equipment and it would be impossible to train an animal to do it, yet you dismiss it as brainless activity. Do you deny that a battledroid can converse fluently, show emotion, violate standing orders (yes, staying at your post in a military organization until ordered otherwise is a standing order), ignore orders given to them (eg- running away from the Invisible Hand's bridge despite Grievous ordering the deaths of Kenobi and Skywalker, both of whom were still on the bridge), and take initiative to carry out standing orders? Do you deny that these things are well beyond the capabilities of any animal, and represent evidence of sapience?I don't believe he ever says this, no.But at no point does he believe that its brain is of a completely different class than other astromechs.More complex than we've ever seen in a battle droid, certainly. In the comlink example, he remembers something that 3PO has forgotten and expresses this to him. upon reflection, I guess going after Kenobi doesn't show us very much.And these constitute tasks requiring complex intelligence?In ANH, he disobeys Luke and strikes out in search of Kenobi alone. He also tells 3PO to "use the comlink," reminding him that he has turned it off.
And what I'm showing is that the kinds of evidence you use for R2's sapience can just as easily be found with battledroids: something you have inadvertently acknowledged by moving the goalposts and inventing new criteria which were obviously tailored to apply just to R2 (like "must show onscreen friendship"). Hell, battledroids understand how to use verbal language diction, inflection, and syntax: none of which R2 can do, hence his ability to vocalize is limited to a computer code system of beeps and other sound effects which almost certainly lacks the complicated exception-dominated syntactical nature of a typical human spoken language.Conceded on the "attacking." Believe it or not, I realy don't have an agenda here. I'm just not totally convinced that battle droids are sapient. I am convinced that R2 ad 3PO are sapient, which is why the discussion has moved to them.
When you start getting in to Ockham's Razor violations such as purely unnecessary supposition of total brain replacement, that should tell you something about your argument.All I'm saying is that we don't know how typical R2 is, and we don't know very much about standard astromechs. We don't even know if R2 has his original brain. We have no hard and fast line between sapient and non-sapient.
Good point. So let's assume that all these uncounted numbers of sapient battle droids are all placed into hibernation indefinately. I don't think that would be murder, unless they were subsequently dismantled. In fact, if the droids are all hard-wired to be loyal to the CIS, it's difficult to imagine a better scenario.Plus, 18's opening post seems to be "assuming they're sapient, is shutting them down murder?", making the whole "are they sapient" debate itself a highjack of sorts.
This is a hijack of a hijack, but if the Republic lost the war (ignoring that Sidious' manipulation makes that impossible), the clones could simply be ordered to stand down. They wouldn't disobey an order to cease fighting.Anguirus wrote:Say the Republic lost the war, but the clones could not accept this and continued to fight no matter what.
Maybe you're just a crazed psychopath? Works for me!18-Till-I-Die wrote:You know that's a very good point...i never thought of that but yeah, why would you torture something if it cant understand or feel pain.NecronLord wrote:Why? Torturing a gonk as punishment seems a little silly if it can't appreciate its pain.nightmare wrote:I have my doubts about Gonk.