What if you were in Anakin's shoes ?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Who knows? But he did eventually die, and it did fall apart.

Somehow I find Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord who single-handedly engineered the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire and the destruction of the Jedi Order, to have no planned successor to carry the rule of Sith to be a little unconvincing.

[Noble Ire]

Who knows? But he did eventually die, and it did fall apart.

Somehow I find Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord who single-handedly engineered the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire and the destruction of the Jedi Order, to have no planned successor to carry the rule of Sith to be a little unconvincing.

Indeed. The removal of the Senate and stratification of the Imperial government would have made it easier for a successor, presumably Vader, to assume control without much oppostion. If the operational structure stays in place, and a few key indaviduals could remain loyal, the Empire could be preserved. However, when both Vader and Palpatine died at Endor the lack of a successor and the increasing momentum of the Rebellion lead to collapse.

[LordShaithis]

Do either of you have any evidence that the non-Sith command structure of the Empire views Vader as anything but the Emperor's scary enforcer? Any reason to believe that the Emperor's death with Vader alive would be any more organized in it's result than their mutual deaths?

[Noble Ire]

Do either of you have any evidence that the non-Sith command structure of the Empire views Vader as anything but the Emperor's scary enforcer? Any reason to believe that the Emperor's death with Vader alive would be any more organized in it's result than their mutual deaths?

A country can operate with a puppet leader, as long as the people behind him have enough contacts and skills to run the nation. Now certainly, Vader would be no puppet, but as long as he kept the lower echelons intact, and at least a few of the higher-ups could stay loyal to him, by intimidation, honor, or bribery, he could control the whole system. After all, Palpatine didn't do it all by himself either, at least not the minutia.

However, without even a figurehead, there was no one established for the Remnant to fall behind, and the system collapsed.

[AniThyng]

Wouldn't it be more likely that they fell back into old patterns? Elect a weak senator, and have the bureaucracy run wild? I doubt that they have cut that back by a lot...

I highly doubt it. The regional governors have control, not the Senate. Why in the world would they give their power back to the Senate or any bureaucratic run government?

Er...they gaining direct control really wouldn't happen until way into ANH, wouldn't it?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Do either of you have any evidence that the non-Sith command structure of the Empire views Vader as anything but the Emperor's scary enforcer? Any reason to believe that the Emperor's death with Vader alive would be any more organized in it's result than their mutual deaths?

It isn't a specific piece of hardcore evidence that suggests that Vader is the supposed heir to the throne but rather the lack of a coherent, alternative explanation. We know that Sidious had two major goals in mind: The destruction of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Sith as rulers of the galaxy. Vader is the only other Sith in the entire galaxy. Assuming anyone but Vader to be the would-be Emperor of the Empire would fly directly in the face of Sidious' plan for Sith domination.

Er...they gaining direct control really wouldn't happen until way into ANH, wouldn't it?

Perhaps complete control was only given during ANH. However, a transformation of a democratic Republic into a totalitarian Empire suggests that despite not having complete control of their respective territories, the regional governors at least had a lot more control than their respective senators.

[LordShaithis]

It isn't a specific piece of hardcore evidence that suggests that Vader is the supposed heir to the throne but rather the lack of a coherent, alternative explanation.

So basically, no. And here's your alternative explanation: When Sidious says "the Sith" he really means "Sidious". If Vader was really the duly-appointed heir to the throne, you'd think we might have heard something to that effect at some point.

We know that Sidious had two major goals in mind: The destruction of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Sith as rulers of the galaxy. Vader is the only other Sith in the entire galaxy. Assuming anyone but Vader to be the would-be Emperor of the Empire would fly directly in the face of Sidious' plan for Sith domination.

Except for that whole thing where Sidious planned to not die.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

If Vader was really the duly-appointed heir to the throne, you'd think we might have heard something to that effect at some point.

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Except for that whole thing where Sidious planned to not die.

Then how do you explain Sidious' words when he was faced with his own mortality when fighting Yoda?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

So explain to me this. If Vader was merely a scary lackey that became inconsequential by the time the Jedi Order was destroyed, why was Sidious so concerned about saving him from Mustafar? He surely didn't offer the same kind of concern or "compassion" to Darth Maul.

[Noble Ire]

Then how do you explain Sidious' words when he was faced with his own mortality when fighting Yoda?

Actually, I think Shaithis might have a point. Yes, during ROTS, its pretty clear that Palpatine planned on having Vader take up his standard if he fell. However, after his plan went successfully, and Palpatine had a bit of time to revel in his power, he might have reconsidered the old Sith ways of succession. He did, after all, begin to look into methods to make himself immortal, like the clone bodies. So by ROTJ, there may have been no line of succession, although I still think Vader might have had a chance of taking the reigns if he had not died or turned back to the light, considering how stratified the system was, as I noted before.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually numerous times as well as in Dark Empire, it was noted that Darth Vader was the supreme commander of the Empire's armed forces.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Actually, I think Shaithis might have a point. Yes, during ROTS, its pretty clear that Palpatine planned on having Vader take up his standard if he fell. However, after his plan went successfully, and Palpatine had a bit of time to revel in his power, he might have reconsidered the old Sith ways of succession. He did, after all, begin to look into methods to make himself immortal, like the clone bodies. So by ROTJ, there may have been no line of succession, although I still think Vader might have had a chance of taking the reigns if he had not died or turned back to the light, considering how stratified the system was, as I noted before.

It is clear that Palpatine lost his faith in Vader being his successor but that was not due to some kind of enjoyment of his power. Sith tradition dictates that the apprentice overpowers his own master to gain the position of Sith Lord. Even if Sidious changed his mind, he couldn't stop Vader from overthrowing him unless he declared Vader as an enemy of the state. No, the only reason why Sidious lost faith in Vader was due to the fact that Vader's potential was considerably weakened after his duel on Mustafar. He was not fit to become the Lord of the Sith ever since he lost the ability to overthrow the Emperor.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, I think Shaithis might have a point. Yes, during ROTS, its pretty clear that Palpatine planned on having Vader take up his standard if he fell. However, after his plan went successfully, and Palpatine had a bit of time to revel in his power, he might have reconsidered the old Sith ways of succession. He did, after all, begin to look into methods to make himself immortal, like the clone bodies. So by ROTJ, there may have been no line of succession, although I still think Vader might have had a chance of taking the reigns if he had not died or turned back to the light, considering how stratified the system was, as I noted before.

It is clear that Palpatine lost his faith in Vader being his successor but that was not due to some kind of enjoyment of his power. Sith tradition dictates that the apprentice overpowers his own master to gain the position of Sith Lord. Even if Sidious changed his mind, he couldn't stop Vader from overthrowing him unless he declared Vader as an enemy of the state. No, the only reason why Sidious lost faith in Vader was due to the fact that Vader's potential was considerably weakened after his duel on Mustafar. He was not fit to become the Lord of the Sith ever since he lost the ability to overthrow the Emperor.

Actually Dark Lord refutes that in detail. Anakin had a psychological problem after Mustafar, which resolved itself.

Then Luke came along, and both were vying for position to take him as apprentice since he had potential beyond even Anakin.

[Kurgan]

Palpatine told Anakin that only a Plagus could stop the ones he loved from dying. In the same conversation he said Plagus had taught his student everything he knew. Being as how Palpatine was that sudent and he didn't know "cheat death". To paraphrase Kent Brockman I'm not saying he's a liar but we do have many pictures of him with his pants on fire.

Nowhere and at no time did Palpatine say he was Darth Plagueis' apprentice. This is an opinion that several people have advance and somehow it has become like gospel truth. I know what most people interpret the smirk on Palpatine's face as he tells the story as proof that he's remembering killing Plagueis, but it's far from proof. I can go so far as to say that the smirk was due to Palpatine's favorable opinion of the unnamed apprentice, or because the story reminded him of how he offed his own master. This theory is no more right or wrong than the theory that Palpatine was Plagueis' apprentice. Without sound proof otherwise, this theory must be discounted. Case closed on that one.

I agree wholeheartedly with the logic here. Many people (including Wong) watched the scene and (perhaps noting Lucas and his writers's habit of "bash you over the head with it and leave nothing to the imagination" style of storytelling... ie: even if something is only vaguely hinted at, it's the gospel truth) and immediately assumed that Sideous was Plagueis's apprentice. I didn't, and you didn't, but many did, oh well.

Officially, unfortunately, he is the apprentice. This is spelled out in the ROTS novelisation (an unfilmed line has his admitting it to Anakin in fact IIRC), and the ROTS Visual Dictionary states as much.

So while logic and the film only leaves it open to the fact that Palpatine was not actually lying to Anakin, the canon novel and C-level VD bear out that he was in fact lying (ie: he was the apprentice, the lie was that the apprentice knew everything the master did... ie: how to create life and stop the ones he cared about from dying). Unless one wants to argue semantics that he "knew" how to do these things but simply lacked the strength in the force to "achieve" these powers.

Given Palpatine's devious nature, he could simply have made up Darth Plagueis completely. But the omniscient writer of the VD tells us that it's the truth, so it's canon.

Sorry if that's been said before, I didn't have the patience to read through all five pages before posting, so sue me!

Mike gives a nice run-down of the movie and his observations, while obviously well thought out, are still merely one man's opinion (plus input from his wife IIRC). He doubts that Palpatine ever really lies in the movie, but also says that Palpy is the apprentice is "obvious." I don't quite agree, because the two don't go together. It's either obviously true and Sideous does lie, or it's not obviously true and he merely tells the truth in such a way as to mislead Anakin. The supplemental materials leave no room for doubt about his true identity, and serve to reinforce the non-truthtelling nature of Palpatine. If I've misrepresented his views or he's changed them since then, let Mike correct what I said here, of course.

Late edit: Okay after reading a bit more, I see that somebody brought up the SW databank (is it canon?).. I see they've since updated and revised it considerably. I remember when I read it before ROTS had come out, it still failed to admit that Palpatine was Sideous, again fueling annoying speculation that they were different people.