Posted: 2006-02-11 11:00am
A variation on the old "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity" saying I'd use is "never ascribe as a rip off what is simply narrative necessity."
Here's the list of items from the Wiki article.
1. Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
That's a pretty strong similarity, and it wouldn't be surprising if that had come down from Paramount.
2. Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 guarded a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
True again. However, couldn't this be considered a case where the survival of the series depended on such a situation? With DS9 being the first and only series with a fixed setting, it would mean that the adventures would have to come to them (or be in their neighborhood) for it to be worth watching. By putting it at a gateway to a wormhole you'd have both Starfleet and civilian ships passing through, whereas if it were simply a deep space station you'd get more of the former that were pushing out into the frontier.
3. Both series originally had a shapeshifter as a main character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming.
That's a very damning bit there.
4. The person in command of each station lost his wife when he confronted a powerful enemy.
Yes, but I think the difference is that Sisko had a son to raise on the station. Killing his wife, while obviously playing a small role in a few episodes including the pilot, seemed mostly to exist so that Sisko would have to serve as a single parent, rather than as simply a widower. The dynamic of a family having to adjust to this situation extended beyond Sisko to Chief O'Brien as well and his established relationship with Keiko from TNG. A wife for Sisko would have made storylines around an established character redundant, and Molly was simply far too young to serve in the same capacity as Jake.
5. Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
But don't forget, Kassidy Yates was also knocking boots with David Palmer.
This is a could be, but maybe not kind of thing. TNG had already run the romance among shipmates thing into the ground, so having Sisko involved with another officer on the station would just be more of the same. A Bajoran officer could perhaps have made things interesting from a story point of view, but there's also a great deal of safety in choosing a freighter captain. The character can be around when needed and shunted off when she's not, and if she just isn't needed or liked you send her on her way.
6. The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
Heh, hard to argue with that one.
7. The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
Well we know that the character was originally supposed to be Ro Laren, so the real question is whether or not the TNG character was created specifically to join this series.
8. Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore:(1. The oppressed race was a deeply religious one. 2. The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals. 3. The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them. 4. These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.)
The Cardassian-Bajoran stuff was established in TNG, which again raises the question of whether this was there to pave the way. It's not something to dismiss out of hand; I'd say that the existence of DS9's Maquis was primarily motivated to set-up the woefully untapped situation that Voyager found itself in.
However, for the latter points, I don't think DS9 was created with the idea of having a war down the line. I think the war simply was a development used to stimulate ratings for the show which didn't have the luxury of network support like Voyager and Enterprise would have.
9. Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
As the site linked points out, the Defiant and the White Star served far different purposes. I'm also pretty sure I read waaaaay back when DS9 S3 was about to start that one of the reasons for the Defiant showing up was because the static nature of the station didn't seem to be working, and that the crew needed to get off the station more in something better than a runabout or shuttle.
10. Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Psi Corps and Bureau 13.
That was very late in the series, though, and it comes across more as a) a plot device to cure Odo, and b) a chance to show that the Federation's hands weren't as clean as they liked to think. DS9 seemed to be the only Trek series to really be willing to do that.
11. Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelt "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelt "Leeta").
Ouch. That's hard to argue with.
12. Each Station was under the control of a earth based government but not in that government's territory.
Eh, maybe, but it's superficial at best. Obviously it was going to be a Federation station no matter what JMS suggested. Whether or not it was actually in Federation space really wasn't much of a factor in the series.
Another point that was brought up in the article but isn't on the list is the use of story arcs. Behr commented on the DS9 disks that the powers that be didn't like the story arcs, that they had to fight to get them and in some cases just kind of do it under the radar because Berman was off playing with Voyager. So that similarity was one that took place in spite of management rather than because of it.
For me the best part of DS9 was the stuff that wasn't on the list. Garak leaps immediately to mind, and the way Quark came off. Odo, not the fact that he was a shapeshifter, but merely his entire outlook, and the fact that he seemed to slide easily from Cardassian authority to Bajoran authority as if he were someone separated from it. The way the mix was being tampered with, like throwing in conflicts with Klingons. The relationship that developed over the years between O'Brien and Bashir from O'Brien's loathing to a close friendship (one of my favorite moments is the sight of the two singing while thoroughly drunk and Bashir revealing his brilliant idea: "We should go down to Quark's... and sing for everybody!"). When it had the guts to poke fun at the smug superiority of the Federation, such as Quark pointing out that humans despise the Ferengi because they're too much of a reminder of how they used to be, or Jake delivering the "we seek to better ourselves" speech only to have the fact presented that if that were true then he wouldn't be begging for money. So while I don't argue that some things have definitely been lifted from B5, I think the best of what DS9 was was original.
Here's the list of items from the Wiki article.
1. Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
That's a pretty strong similarity, and it wouldn't be surprising if that had come down from Paramount.
2. Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 guarded a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
True again. However, couldn't this be considered a case where the survival of the series depended on such a situation? With DS9 being the first and only series with a fixed setting, it would mean that the adventures would have to come to them (or be in their neighborhood) for it to be worth watching. By putting it at a gateway to a wormhole you'd have both Starfleet and civilian ships passing through, whereas if it were simply a deep space station you'd get more of the former that were pushing out into the frontier.
3. Both series originally had a shapeshifter as a main character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming.
That's a very damning bit there.
4. The person in command of each station lost his wife when he confronted a powerful enemy.
Yes, but I think the difference is that Sisko had a son to raise on the station. Killing his wife, while obviously playing a small role in a few episodes including the pilot, seemed mostly to exist so that Sisko would have to serve as a single parent, rather than as simply a widower. The dynamic of a family having to adjust to this situation extended beyond Sisko to Chief O'Brien as well and his established relationship with Keiko from TNG. A wife for Sisko would have made storylines around an established character redundant, and Molly was simply far too young to serve in the same capacity as Jake.
5. Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
But don't forget, Kassidy Yates was also knocking boots with David Palmer.
This is a could be, but maybe not kind of thing. TNG had already run the romance among shipmates thing into the ground, so having Sisko involved with another officer on the station would just be more of the same. A Bajoran officer could perhaps have made things interesting from a story point of view, but there's also a great deal of safety in choosing a freighter captain. The character can be around when needed and shunted off when she's not, and if she just isn't needed or liked you send her on her way.
6. The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
Heh, hard to argue with that one.
7. The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
Well we know that the character was originally supposed to be Ro Laren, so the real question is whether or not the TNG character was created specifically to join this series.
8. Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore:(1. The oppressed race was a deeply religious one. 2. The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals. 3. The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them. 4. These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.)
The Cardassian-Bajoran stuff was established in TNG, which again raises the question of whether this was there to pave the way. It's not something to dismiss out of hand; I'd say that the existence of DS9's Maquis was primarily motivated to set-up the woefully untapped situation that Voyager found itself in.
However, for the latter points, I don't think DS9 was created with the idea of having a war down the line. I think the war simply was a development used to stimulate ratings for the show which didn't have the luxury of network support like Voyager and Enterprise would have.
9. Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
As the site linked points out, the Defiant and the White Star served far different purposes. I'm also pretty sure I read waaaaay back when DS9 S3 was about to start that one of the reasons for the Defiant showing up was because the static nature of the station didn't seem to be working, and that the crew needed to get off the station more in something better than a runabout or shuttle.
10. Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Psi Corps and Bureau 13.
That was very late in the series, though, and it comes across more as a) a plot device to cure Odo, and b) a chance to show that the Federation's hands weren't as clean as they liked to think. DS9 seemed to be the only Trek series to really be willing to do that.
11. Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelt "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelt "Leeta").
Ouch. That's hard to argue with.
12. Each Station was under the control of a earth based government but not in that government's territory.
Eh, maybe, but it's superficial at best. Obviously it was going to be a Federation station no matter what JMS suggested. Whether or not it was actually in Federation space really wasn't much of a factor in the series.
Another point that was brought up in the article but isn't on the list is the use of story arcs. Behr commented on the DS9 disks that the powers that be didn't like the story arcs, that they had to fight to get them and in some cases just kind of do it under the radar because Berman was off playing with Voyager. So that similarity was one that took place in spite of management rather than because of it.
For me the best part of DS9 was the stuff that wasn't on the list. Garak leaps immediately to mind, and the way Quark came off. Odo, not the fact that he was a shapeshifter, but merely his entire outlook, and the fact that he seemed to slide easily from Cardassian authority to Bajoran authority as if he were someone separated from it. The way the mix was being tampered with, like throwing in conflicts with Klingons. The relationship that developed over the years between O'Brien and Bashir from O'Brien's loathing to a close friendship (one of my favorite moments is the sight of the two singing while thoroughly drunk and Bashir revealing his brilliant idea: "We should go down to Quark's... and sing for everybody!"). When it had the guts to poke fun at the smug superiority of the Federation, such as Quark pointing out that humans despise the Ferengi because they're too much of a reminder of how they used to be, or Jake delivering the "we seek to better ourselves" speech only to have the fact presented that if that were true then he wouldn't be begging for money. So while I don't argue that some things have definitely been lifted from B5, I think the best of what DS9 was was original.