StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The application of proper tactics on the part of Republic/Imperial troops is... spotty. While their armor and weapons would carry the day in any sort of numerically balanced scenario, I would expect well-trained and disciplined modern soldiers to make them work for it.

My prediction would be an Imperial victory with relatively few fatalities, but quite a few concussions and wounded limbs. If you wanted to strip the stormtroopers of armor just for shits and giggles and to make things more competetive, I'd give the modern troops a decent chance of overcoming firepower with tactics, depending on the environment.

To expand upon one of the issues with defining SW armament by their RL analogues: here, a primary way of defining what type a particular gun falls into is by calibre. However, SW guns don't have calibre per se, merely increasing power. Han Solo's DL-44 is almost or as powerful as an E-11; in RL terms, this is explained by making the E-11 a submachine gun firing pistol-size ammo, similar to the M9 Beretta/MP-5, both firing 9mm.

Another way to classify them is by ammo capacity; the DL-44 has maybe 20 shots on full power. The E-11, on the other hand, has 100 shots (IIRC?). Perhaps its firing process uses less gas and utilizes barrel length for a more powerful shot, who knows? In any case, this higher capacity and (probably) better accuracy at range makes it more of a submachine gun/carbine combination, though given its size it's more of a MP-7 type.

Lazarus wrote:Thats a good point about the deployment though. If a modern army were in a woodland setting like Endor, wouldn't they use rifles though?

Full-sized rifles would have their uses in thick forests and other close quarters settings (sniping in particular), but all that extra range means little when you can't see more than 50 yards anyway.

Being as it is holstered, that suggests the E-11 is something of a cross between the function of a carbine, a sub machine gun, and a machine pistol?
Its too big for a direct comparison with the MP7, but I still hold out that it has the most in common with the MP5-A5, but with the holster perhaps it is made of materials light enough to make this practical?

Depends on what you mean by "holster". The cloth sleeve the stormtroopers carry their weapons in is purely for holding the weapon. In other words, it's not a gun rig like cowboys and police (and Han Solo) use to carry their guns and draw them quickly. They're more like the canvas sleeve paratroopers used to carry their collapsable-stock M-1 carbines in.

I don’t see why you people feel the need to debate what the job of the E-11 is, it’s just a Sterling submachine gun with some extra bits glued on. Why not just accept that it’s a submachine gun? It’s the right size and its use is perfectly in place with it being that sort of weapon.

If E-11s were full auto, I think people would make the comparison more easily.

Some portrayals of the E-11 have it as being capable of full auto, some don't. I would have thought that even a normal M-16 type kinetic automatic rifle would be better than a semi automatic blaster if it can only work in this way.

Lazarus wrote:Some portrayals of the E-11 have it as being capable of full auto, some don't. I would have thought that even a normal M-16 type kinetic automatic rifle would be better than a semi automatic blaster if it can only work in this way.

Why? The E-11 has vastly more firepower in a much smaller package, and auto fire is the next best thing to useless anyway in that kind of weapon. Real world soldiers are trained to use single shots or at best short bursts for a reason.
Case in point: the current M-16 isn't an automatic rifle. It's either single-shot or three-round burst.

What's the recoil like on an E-11? The main problem with auto fire is the recoil makes it inaccurate and wastes ammo which has to be carried... Whist I was going to say neither would a great problem with the E-11, IIRC it does have recoil?

Whist again IIRC the Canadian version of the M16A2 does have select fire (semi and full) they're trained to use it semi auto or in short bursts even if they don't have that restriction imposed on them like the Americans do. That's because your accuracy goes to shit and you don't hit any more than someone using semi auto.

PayBack wrote:What's the recoil like on an E-11? The main problem with auto fire is the recoil makes it inaccurate and wastes ammo which has to be carried... Whist I was going to say neither would a great problem with the E-11, IIRC it does have recoil?

It seems to be minimal, although it does have some. I seem to recall Luke firing several bursts with one in ANH with one hand, with the arm fully extended, and still being able to control it to some degree.

Yeah I remember the same thing (though I'm trying to put off watching them again till I can afford a projector )

What interested me was the fact there was a slide action too of sorts I think and escaping gasses (Tabanna?)

It must have recoil but does indeed seem to have little of it. Nevertheless I fail to see why it would need automatic fire. Auto (as opposed to a burst setting) is something useful only for supression fire which isn't the job of a SMG/carbine and with little or no recoil refire rate on semiauto is more or less dependent on how quickly you can pull the trigger.
Also remember that blasters don't carry massively more ammunition than modern firearms. There's still a limit to the number of power packs a soldier can carry.

PayBack wrote:Yeah I remember the same thing (though I'm trying to put off watching them again till I can afford a projector )

What interested me was the fact there was a slide action too of sorts I think and escaping gasses (Tabanna?)

Out of universe: That's from the blanks they used to simulate firing. In universe: Most probably Tibanna gas byproducts of some sort, vented in order to prevent overpressures within the blaster.

Noble Ire wrote:It seems to be minimal, although it does have some. I seem to recall Luke firing several bursts with one in ANH with one hand, with the arm fully extended, and still being able to control it to some degree.

In RotS, there's a shot of a battle droid firing a similar weapon on automatic fire. The RoF was well over 1000 shots per minute, assuming that it could have been sustained. The recoil appeared to be fairly small.

Also, the DC-15 and its carbine version, used by the clones, has a pretty decent rate of fire. Even in ANH, while I don't remeber instances of full auto, there were instances where the E-11 was putting out a decent amount of fire.

Didn't one of the clonetroopers use a full-auto E-11 on a droid right before Commander Cody handed Obi-Wan Kenobi his lightsabre?

Elfdart wrote:Didn't one of the clonetroopers use a full-auto E-11 on a droid right before Commander Cody handed Obi-Wan Kenobi his lightsabre?

DC-15S, you mean. There's quite a few examples of automatic fire in RotS from both the full size and carbine DC-15 variants. Yoda being fired on outside the temple comes ot mind.

LordShaithis wrote:The application of proper tactics on the part of Republic/Imperial troops is... spotty. While their armor and weapons would carry the day in any sort of numerically balanced scenario, I would expect well-trained and disciplined modern soldiers to make them work for it.

While typical battlefield soldiers in Star Wars seem to use rather peculiar tactics, their special forces units utilize tactics very effectively. Republic Commandos (and presumably ARC Troopers) are demonstrably skilled in this area.
In the civil war era, it's possible that there are still commando units, except we don't recognize them because they now wear armor that doesn't differ from other stormtroopers.

Eleheru Aran wrote:To expand upon one of the issues with defining SW armament by their RL analogues: here, a primary way of defining what type a particular gun falls into is by calibre. However, SW guns don't have calibre per se, merely increasing power. Han Solo's DL-44 is almost or as powerful as an E-11; in RL terms, this is explained by making the E-11 a submachine gun firing pistol-size ammo, similar to the M9 Beretta/MP-5, both firing 9mm.

I believe it was said that Han had personally modified his DL-44 to have higher yield settings (will look for source to confirm). The standard BlasTech DL-44 and Mer-Sonn knockoffs of the same design were quite common, used by several other characters in the movies.
I think a better parallel between the relative yield per shot between an E-11 and Han's pistol would be 9x19mm and .50AE.

Elfdart wrote:Didn't one of the clonetroopers use a full-auto E-11 on a droid right before Commander Cody handed Obi-Wan Kenobi his lightsabre?

E-11s didn't exist during that era. You're probably referring to the DC-15S carbine, which is what many clones in RotS are wielding.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure we see them being fired full auto. For one thing, I'm absolutely positive the scout trooper lookalikes on Kashyyyk were firing full auto from their treetop positions when the droid army approached agross the lagoon.
Anyone remember the guy who jumps on top of a crab droid and fires into its back? I think he was firing full auto, too.


We also know that blasters have variable settings for energy per shot.
Since we know that blasters can be fired full auto, and they have variable yield, do you think we can logically conclude that blasters can indeed be fired rapidly, but since the power output of the energy storage pack is limited, if it were to be fired full auto, it would mean that the yield-per-shot would be lower?

Cykeisme wrote:We also know that blasters have variable settings for energy per shot. Once we know that blasters can be fired full auto, and they have variable yield, do you think we can logically conclude that blasters can indeed be fired rapidly, but since the power output of the energy storage pack is limited, if it were to be fired full auto, it would mean that the yield-per-shot would be lower?

Or they go through "rounds" that much faster.

Vympel wrote:

Elfdart wrote:Didn't one of the clonetroopers use a full-auto E-11 on a droid right before Commander Cody handed Obi-Wan Kenobi his lightsabre?

DC-15S, you mean. There's quite a few examples of automatic fire in RotS from both the full size and carbine DC-15 variants. Yoda being fired on outside the temple comes ot mind.

It sure looked like a Sterling knock-off. If the battle droid blaster is based on the toy E-11, and the clonetroopers' full-size rifle is based on a prop MG-34, what's this DC-15 based on? Is it another Sterling knock-off or something different?

Elfdart wrote:
It sure looked like a Sterling knock-off. If the battle droid blaster is based on the toy E-11, and the clonetroopers' full-size rifle is based on a prop MG-34

The Stormtrooper's DLT-19 is based off the MG-34- the Clonetrooper gun is made-up.

what's this DC-15 based on? Is it another Sterling knock-off or something different?

I think it's just a made-up CG gun, like the big-ass DC-15 the Clones also use- I don't think they even made a physical prop of it (unlike the Battle Droid gun, which Padme and Naboo security had to use in TPM/ AotC).

Bear in mind that most projectile weapons, unlike energy weapons, cannot "scale" their yields to highyl variable degrees without neccesarily resorting to multiple shots.

The main reason to use a higher rate of fire with blasters is going to be either in engaging multiple targets or "raking" damage across the target (to do damage over a wider area.) so you probably don't always need the "spray of shots" type mode in most cases. More to the point, using such a mode would probably require a corresponding decrease in "per-shot" yield (either because you have to divide the sustained output over a larger number of shots, or because of cooling limits, or perhaps both.)

Lazarus wrote:Some portrayals of the E-11 have it as being capable of full auto, some don't. I would have thought that even a normal M-16 type kinetic automatic rifle would be better than a semi automatic blaster if it can only work in this way.

1) As others have said, the E-11 probably does have fully-automatic capabilities.
2) The standard M-16 issued to American soldiers does not have a full automatic setting; it is limited to three-round bursts.
3) The actual increase in utility the E-11 would gain from a fully-automatic setting is probably minimal. Considering the awesome damage each shot can inflict, it wouldn't really be of any benefit to lethality, though it's invaluable for suppressing fire.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The main reason to use a higher rate of fire with blasters is going to be either in engaging multiple targets or "raking" damage across the target (to do damage over a wider area.)

Walking your fire onto targets like that isn't very efficient; the main use of automatic fire is suppressing the enemy. It's likely that troops equipped with the E-11 are either expected to engage enemies in very close quarters (as soon in the films) where suppressing fire isn't as essential and can be provided by the E-11s themselves, or each stormtrooper squad incorporates a SAW like the T-21.

Pablo Sanchez wrote: 1) As others have said, the E-11 probably does have fully-automatic capabilities.

According to the EGW&T, it does (it also has somethign called a "pulse" setting, which I have no idea about.)

Walking your fire onto targets like that isn't very efficient; the main use of automatic fire is suppressing the enemy.

The sortt of "Raking" shots I meant were against sizeable targets you needed to put alot of holes in (like a lightly-armored vehicle.) Or when you say, wanted to slice someone in half (somethign I vaguely recall a mention of in Darth Maul: Shadow hunter.)

Higher ROF for engaging multiple targets is somethign else.

It's likely that troops equipped with the E-11 are either expected to engage enemies in very close quarters (as soon in the films) where suppressing fire isn't as essential and can be provided by the E-11s themselves, or each stormtrooper squad incorporates a SAW like the T-21.

close up rapid-fire ight be useful against some targets - such as ones that can move fast.

Connor MacLeod wrote:According to the EGW&T, it does (it also has somethign called a "pulse" setting, which I have no idea about.)

Maybe similar to burst fire, though that's nothing but a guess.

The sortt of "Raking" shots I meant were against sizeable targets you needed to put alot of holes in (like a lightly-armored vehicle.)

I could see using a burst to disable a thin-skinned vehicle (like the SW equivalent to a 2.5 ton truck) but I think vehicles that are actually armored, even lightly, would be tough enough to resist even SW-scaled small-arms fire (like the equivalent of an uparmored Humvee).

Or when you say, wanted to slice someone in half (somethign I vaguely recall a mention of in Darth Maul: Shadow hunter.)

Overkill, of course

Higher ROF for engaging multiple targets is somethign else.

A high rate of fire for a shoulder arm like a submachinegun or E-11 doesn't usually allow you to actually engage multiple targets. Infantry keep far enough a part that you can get more than one person in a burst, even with a dedicated rapid-fire weapon like a machinegun. Typically you cut down your first target with a burst, stop firing and acquire another target, then hit him with his own burst. Spray-and-pray could work at extreme close range (like the confines of a room) but is usually frowned upon anyway.

close up rapid-fire ight be useful against some targets - such as ones that can move fast.

Like a Jedi, maybe. Still, this isn't going to be a very common application.

Vympel wrote:

Elfdart wrote:
It sure looked like a Sterling knock-off. If the battle droid blaster is based on the toy E-11, and the clonetroopers' full-size rifle is based on a prop MG-34

The Stormtrooper's DLT-19 is based off the MG-34- the Clonetrooper gun is made-up.

what's this DC-15 based on? Is it another Sterling knock-off or something different?

I think it's just a made-up CG gun, like the big-ass DC-15 the Clones also use- I don't think they even made a physical prop of it (unlike the Battle Droid gun, which Padme and Naboo security had to use in TPM/ AotC).

That's rather odd since the clonetroopers in ROTS were guys in blue suits with the armor painted on with CGI later. Why they would use CGI props for closeups is beyond me.

Elfdart wrote: That's rather odd since the clonetroopers in ROTS were guys in blue suits with the armor painted on with CGI later. Why they would use CGI props for closeups is beyond me.

The only guy in a blue suit I know of was Commander Cody in some of his conversations with Obi-Wan, because he had his helmet off (for example, in the scene where he gives Obi-Wan his lightsabre back, he's actually holding an old Stormtrooper helmet as a stand-in and it was CGI'd over)- but the masses of Clonetroopers and such were pure CGI, as far as I know, they weren't represented by actors at all. The only time blue suits would be involved would be in motion capture.

In any case, the DC-15s in close-up look like CGI to me *shrug*. Take the "it's time for you to leave" scene at the Temple with Bail Organa, for example.