Doctor Doom wrote:
Tarkin refused to scramble fighters. Vader scrambled some at the last minute, quite possible because he sensed the presence of the Force. That Tarkin didn't countermand Vader means nothing (in fact, the EU makes it clear that Vader made a hobby of taking his fighter for "joy rides" in battle to rack up his kill count). The Rebel fighters never should have made it as far as the trench, plain and simple.
The ties would have to intercept the rebels outside the Death Star's sheilds, where the blastwave from Yavin IV's demise might catch them. Tarkin would have to delay firing if the dogfighting and retrieval of unprotected ships lasted too long. The rebels didn't linger to duel, either, but dove into the cover of the station's surface structures as soon as they could.
Normally, fighters can't do very much damage to a capital ship without support from more powerful vessels or ground based weaponry; Yavin IV did not appear to have either. Maybe Tarkin wasn't planning on interdiction (like Vader at Hoth). Perhaps he planned to just zip in and blast the planet, allowing survivors to escape and spread terror as firsthand witnesses. Tarkin did not deploy the Death Star's escort vessels, including fighters, because he did not intend to contain rebel escapees. Rebel fighter squadrons were probably not expected to attack when they were detected, and assumed to be fleeing. When they closed on the station and began doing damage, Vader intervened, and when several were detected breaking off from the main group, Vader know to deal with them personally.
Furthermore, who says the fighters have to be within the trench itself? It would be easy enough to have fighters coming in from "above," shooting "down" at the fighters within. Would have allowed for the deployment of more fighters, could have prevented the Millenium Falcon from saving Luke at the last moment, and indeed could have destroyed all the fighters in the trench because the fire would be coming from an angle they didn't expect. Hell, the Millenium Falcon used this tactic, and surprised a Sith Lord, effectively knocking him out of the battle.
Vader was in charge, and he decided to pursue in the trench.
Furthermore, the 'Falcon's guns track more flexibly; a fighter has to point more or less directly at its target. Han also dosen't worry about collateral damage; the ties would.
Mr. Saxton covers this subject in better detail then I could.
I read those pages too. This debate is kind of fun, but not breaking new ground.
(Trivia error: On consulting the Wiki and Saxton tech commentaries, Veers appears in Force Commander, Cassio Tagge was apparently the General who did die on the DS, leaving his brother Ulric to appear in the comics. I always preferred the first interpratation, but according to the Wikipedia, the Star Wars Encyclopedia says General Tagge did die as Cassio Tagge. Apologies; my memory has, um, short-shelf problems. This leaves Bast as the only confirmed Death Star survivor who could have known the rebel attack analysis.)
Are you kidding? That is exactly what evacuation is! It is a high offense in any military service, INCLUDING the Imperial Navy. In the Clone Wars, Captain Pellaeon retreated from a battle without provocation (he believed there was a threat that turned out to be nonexistent), and while he wasn't executed, he spent the next fourty or so years of his career as a measly XO. That is a serious downgrade. Like it or not, there would have been serious implications for an evacuation of the station in the middle of a battle for a threat that, in reality did not exist. As I stated earlier, it was a very precise combination of factors that no one could have predicted that resulted in the destruction of the Death Star.
A design flaw turned the Death Star into a bomb. A creditable bomb threat made to a military comand centre would result in its immediate evacuation, even in the middle of battle. Bast identified the threat and suggested evacuation. He would not recommend a high offense. Tarkin did not call it a high offense, either. Furthermore, the Death Star would not have retreated from battle, which was what Pellaeon's units did.
Tarkin is obviously having trouble owning up to a couple of major oversights. The entire space station could be taken out by one proton torpedo down an exhaust port, the equatorial trench provides an almost completely unimpeded path to it, and he's the one responsible. Even without the port problem, the rebel fighters are causing a lot of damage even as they are destroyed by defenses and ties.
There is a difference between evacuation and transferring one's flag. There were no other Imperial vessels in the system, so where would Tarkin have transferred his flag? To a TIE? A Lambda shuttle?
From the
Wikipedia:
It also carried assault shuttles, Skipray Blastboats, strike cruisers, drop ships, land vehicles, and support ships as well as 7,200 TIE fighters. For surface protection it sported 2,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 ion cannons and at least 700 tractor beam projectors, plus, of course, the superlaser. Even without the primary weapon, the Death Star carried enough troops and ships to occupy an entire star system by force.
Somewhere in there would be the equivalent of an "Air Force One" capable vessel. Even the Emperor travelled in a Lambda shuttle; he's not going to cut himself off from command and control every time he sets out on a jaunt. The movie never actually mentioned what Tarkin's personal ship actually was, only that it was there to be had. I doubt it was a tie fighter, and it was probably more than a stock lambda, and sufficient to oversee the battle from.
You do realize that this last paragraph supports my argument? I am arguing that evacuation was not a pragmatic move, and you counter that by saying he could have been punished if he did evacuate the station?
Well, I am arguing that Tarkin acted like a political general, and he was not overconfident or really incompetant. He was impatient to destroy the rebellion and displayed some poor judgement, took one too many chances in favour of expedience at the last moment, and lost. Evacuation - transferring his flag - to a vessel not in danger of exploding, was not a practical political move, but possibly a pragmatic military one. With the prescence of Darth Vader, the low odds of a successful strike on the exhaust port, and the political fallout of graphically admitting his Death Star had serious, glaring flaws, he chose to stand ground.
You are trying to radicalize my position; it was clearly politically inexpedient to evacuate, whereas there was a military argument to evacuate the control centre - "transfer flag" to a vessel not suddenly turned into a deathtrap by a major design flaw.
You are trying to say the rebels had no chance at all, against the word of an Imperial combat analysis, and that evacuation/flag transfer was militarily impractical, even though Bast thought Tarkin could and should evacuate to his personal ship. You also say Tarkin was militarily incompetant for not launching more ties, even though between Vader's ties and the defenses in place, Luke was lucky to get off his final shot at all, and the Tarkin 'doctrine of terror' would discourage sending up fighters to kill witnesses to the Death Star's potency. Sending in fighters alone without capital ship support was probably as unexpected as Lando's close engagement of star destroyers at Endor, and when it became evident the fighters were attacking, not running, Vader intervened.
He had worked with Vader before. Watch the movie. Tarkin quite clearly believes that Vader is the last of his kind. Tarkin had no reason to believe that the dead spirit of a Jedi Master was guiding a Force attuned future-Jedi Master to destroy the Death Star. No way he could have come to such a conclusion. Ever.
You misunderstand me. Tarkin was not expecting the Force to be used to aid the enemy. That does not mean he didn't believe in the Force or realize how it could influence a battle. Having Vader on his side was probably very reassuring, as he never suspected the Rebels could field a Force sensitive to counter the advantage.
The Jedi are extinct, not the Force; that was the point I was trying to emphasize. I don't see how that could be interpreted as saying Tarkin should have expected a Force-sensitive enemy pilot to appear. In his experience, Force usage has to be trained to be effective, and Jedi had the only such training.
Based on the human norm odds alone, there was a threat to the station, and he did not want to acknowledge it. Even had a full Jedi been out there, and he knew it, Tarkin still would not risk discrediting the Death Star and endangering his political fortunes by evacuating. There was a chance of military failure, whether he evacuated or not. There was a guarantee of political failure, should he be forced to admit the Death Star had to be evacuated because of a handful of fighters, even if Yavin was destroyed.
IIRC, no more then a squadron of TIE's were launched. In Star Wars, a squadron is approximately 12. The fact is, few TIE's were launched. Not only should more have been launched, but sooner in the battle.
However many ties launched almost extinguished the rebel defense. Luke almost died thrice; the first time a wingmate saved him, the second, he zigged when he should have zigged under fire from Vader, and the last, Han and the Milennium Falcon interceded. Had Yavin IV been destroyed, Tarkin could then quietly fix the Death Star design flaw, bury Bast's analysis and no-one need know it was ever a serious problem.
That's exactly my point! The only threat to the Death Star WAS the Force, and there was NO reason for Tarkin to believe it could POSSIBLY be used in the way it was. Period.
The threat to the Death Star was an poorly defended main exhaust port, that could be exploited by a proton torpedo. That previous rebel assault runs missed is playing the odds, not demonstrating an impossible target. Force or no Force, there was enough of a chance of success that Bast was not on the station to die with it.
Actually, the EU indicated Darth Vader had a penchant for doing this during battle. Not only that, but Tarkin did NOT order the fighters to scramble. Vader did. And Vader was Force sensitive. Tarkin wasn't.
Darth Vader was out there dealing with the fighter threat; Tarkin knew this. OK, so Tarkin didn't scramble fighters; why should Tarkin launch more fighters if Vader's elite squadron was handling things and not requesting backup? By the time Luke is making his final run, there isn't anyone else save for that unnamed Y-wing.
Yes, there was a flaw. However, as can be seen in the events of the movie, the ONLY way the flaw was able to be exploited was the use of the Force by Luke Skywalker. The movie makes it quite clear that, without the Force, the flaw could not have been exploited.
The movie also makes clear that the rebels have a chance of success, without the Force. Without reading the actual report, who is to say how many runs on average it would take for one to be successful? The Force made the difference, certainly, but the previous two runs could just as easily have scored. With Vader on their tail, their chances of success were much reduced, but they got off shots, even if accuracy suffered under duress. Luke's last shot was unopposed, with Han cheering him on and Vader spinning into space. Even if he didn't embrace the Force, he still might have nailed that womp rat.
Only a jaded moviegoer would have realized those runs were doomed to fail so Luke could embrace the Force save the day. Both failed runs kept me, at least, on the edge of my seat the first time I saw the movie and still does. It was not, if the movie were real life, a given that Luke was going to embrace the Force and blow up the station. Kenobi's ghost had to cajole him twice to turn off the targeting computer.
Given the fact that the only way the plan worked was the last minute use of the Force, I'd say the Rebels chances were incredibly slim. Which matches the fact that it is explicitly stated in the movie how slim the chances of the attack succeeding were. Remember Wedge Antilles?
Wedge Antilles then is a 17-year-old fighter pilot, not a stats computer. Luke could hit womp rats from a T-16, which probably didn't have much of a targeting computer, and they aren't much bigger than 2m.
The rebel's chances were always slim; at the same time, they alarmed Chief Bast, who was probably using human odds in his analysis, and not factoring in extinct Jedi.
The Falcon was on its way out, Han wanted no part in the Rebellion, remember?
Yes; Han didn't want to contribute to the attack on the Death Star. That dosen't mean he'd turn down a non-combat refugee charter if the price were right. He hung around long enough to be there to rescue Luke; smuggling is his trade. If the rebels wanted a freighter, they had one.
An extensive underground society can only exist if you have an ally who is willing to harbour you. If the Rebellion were to fail in destroying the Death Star, no one would be willing to harbour the Rebellion, because their planet would be destroyed if the Empire ever found out. Hell, Alderaan's link to the Rebellion was tenuous and it was blown up without warning.
Who said the planet would willingly harbour the rebellion? A resistance cell does not need offical support. A minority of sympathizers could harbour a cell, in spite of majority and government disapproval. Rebel activity could disrupt Imperial production and activities on a planet, but destroying the planet would remove the asset completely.
Tenuous? Princess Leia of the Alderaanian Royal Family was smuggling Death Star plans. Bail Organa isn't exactly the Empire's greatest proponent. Maybe Vader couldn't use the force to extract what became of the plans, but she couldn't deny her family's involvement. The penalty for that level of high treason could be expected to be harsh, given that the Emperor's whim had become due process.
Sure it would. Vader's plan took advantage of the narrow space the Rebel fighters were being forced into (the trench) and the distraction caused by the point-defense. He was able to use a small number of fighters to good advantage. In open space, however, they would need more fighters because the TIE's would, quite simply, be outclassed.
Just one tie in the trench flying head-on could mess up an attack run. Suppose only 12 ties +Vader scrambled, and ~21 X and Y-wings are fighting more or less in the open. Only one survived in the open (an unnamed Y-wing) and two from the trench (Wedge and Luke). That suggests the point defenses were better than let on, Vader's elite squadron did very well for themselves minus Vader and his wingmen, or there were a lot more ties fighting than just 9 or 10.
Now you are whoring semantics. Tarkin had on reason to believe that there was a sincere military threat to the station.
Then why was Tarkin so nervous during the ignition countdown? I figure he was suddenly not so sure of himself, with rebel torpedos knocking about the exhast shaft and Vader taking his sweet time stopping them.
As for semantics, what is the difference between Tarkin evacuating on his personal ship, and a flag transfer? Bast would know the penalty for running away; as far as I am concerned, he was advocating your 'flag transfer'. Tarkin had every reason to believe the station was at risk; a trusted analyst was reporting it. No matter the odds on datapad, every near miss is not going to sit well with him.
Bullshit. No real military commander could have possible predicted the outcome of the Battle of Yavin unless they were attuned to the Force. Tarkin had NO reason to EVER expect the incredibly unlikely series of circumstances that led to the Death Star's destruction.
Tarkin oversaw the Death Star project, and was responsible for planning defense around thwarting capital ships only. He was correct; rebel fighters did cosmetic damage to the station surface and had no chance of hiting a critical target... Except straight down the thermal exhaust port, which had no particle sheilding option, no baffles or turns in the shaft, and point defense that did not cover the equatorial trench.
It is a judgement call how far the odds are allowed to be taken. A conservative military commander would correct the flaw before battle, but even a good commander, under pressure to complete a mission, might not.
In theory, even in a pitch battle against a large force of capital ships, a large enough number of fighters/torpedoes could skip the trench run and rush the blowhole directly. It opens directy into space.
What are you talking about?
The Emperor boosted the agents of his Empire through the Force; the ROTJ novelization also indicated so. One of the problems with the Imperial military deduced by Thrawn was that the Imperials were Force-addled, tainted and unable to excel, so he needed Jorus Cabaouth to provide direct battle meditation for the fleet that remained.
The Emperor was not present at the Battle of Yavin, last I checked. And besides, the Emperor was not the one doing the battle meditation, it was Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was also not present at the Battle of Yavin.
I assumed the Emperor's dark force alchemy was all-pervasive, whether his people knew or wanted it or not, and not just confined to deliberate instances of battle meditiation. Also, if Tarkin served in battles where the Emperor applied his will, some permanent damage to his own might occur. The Jedi were very leery about using telepathic powers on large groups of people.
On the other hand, I could be mashing Dark Empire into my memory of the movies and novelizations.
The problem was not fixed because no rational mind would believe that it was a serious threat. The Rebels used it as an absolutely last-ditch, grasping-at-straws attempt, even they were not confident of their ability to win the battle. The Force destroyed the Death Star.
A rational mind would note that a flaw that allows one fighter-borne torpedo to destroy an armoured, sheilded defended space station in one shot should be corrected as soon as possible. This is not something that could happen if there was a failure in conventional defense; it is a flaw that allows an attacker to bypass armour, sheilds, fighters, and turbolasers. At least tack a couple of turbolasers at the port before going into action (if it was known beforehand).
The rebels knew they had enough of a shot to try, instead of saving their fighters and evacuating what they could on the 'Falcon. There's always a way to fight if there's another day.
The Force did not destroy the Death Star, Luke did. The Force improved his probability of success, but the Force is no guarantee of success. Otherwise, Vader, both strong and trained in the Force, would have shot Luke down the first time instead of just scorching R2D2.
