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I wonder how effective steel or iron hats actually are, on the telepathy. One assumes that they must be at least as good (Given sufficient thickness, compared to aluminium foil; though working out numbers to test this hypothesis doesn't much appeal to me at the moment), but then, the Baldricks wouldn't have been able to dick with any military force after Rome that way, which seems counter to the paradigm that's been suggested, of only the last few centuries being able to handle them - the demons should certainly have been prepared for such a thing by now, if that were the case.

NecronLord wrote:And the principal role of a knight was heavy cavalry. English is one of the few European languages where the term knight doesn't literally come from horseman. Observe Ritter, Chevalier, etc.

A principle role. Even the French would dismount to fight when circumstances dictated.

Agincourt is (among other things) notable for the dismounted French being tired by the weight of armour they had to carry when dismounted, even though they were well protected, they were not as manouverable as the less equipped English. This, much like the lethality of the longbow, has often been overstated many times (especially by English historians) and is certainly nothing compared to the danger of drowning in the mud at Agincourt.

Sorry? are you saying that various myths of medieval times are true or saying they are not true?

Nonetheless, a knight, even at this time, was generally a horseman. Even the English knights did attempt mounted combat during Henry V's campaign, and removing that ability outright thanks to (even more) lethal ranged attack is not exactly something that can be dismissed.

While a Knight could fight on foot (and indeed, had to be able to, given that his horse was likely to be shot out from under him even if he was unharmed) the knight's primary role has always been as a heavy horseman, knighthood developing from the class of men who could afford to maintain horses and weapons of the required level.

True.

A knight is still - simply by dint of being a well trained and disciplined (well... as discipline went) soldier - a fearsome proposition in ground combat, but it's possible for that armour to be a liability too.

Oh? how so? one of the medieval fence masters, Tallhoffer I think, mentions that the armoured man is one of the most formidable things you could face in combat, and most of the video's of armoured sparring online seem to confirm this, armour was not overly impairing on ones ability, although you do have to be fit and strong to use it effectively as is true of modern soldiers.

With occasional exceptions, knights did not prefer to fight on foot if they could avoid it. A medieval army going up against the demons is going to lose horses very swiftly, its archers won't be up to much (the demons seem generally highly resillient to bullets; while arrows are potentially very dangerous, they're also going to have a much lesser refire rate) and we're assuming that the tridents don't have a reach advantage on the lances - given that the demons are stonger, and physically bigger, than knights, I wouldn't count on it.

Never said otherwise

At the very best, this argument is that 'the Demons could force the humans to limit their mobility and hitting power. But it's not a crippling disadvantage' - indeed, it's not something that's going to immediately win such a war, but it's merely one of many, many, advantages the demons would enjoy.

Indeed

And an ability to basically serve as a horse archer par excellance. Abigor is ordering his demons to open fire at some considerable distance, here, as far as I can tell. While the characteristics of the lightning are as yet unknown, I wouldn't bet the farm on medeival plate armour earthing a knight effectively, while it's a lot of armour, the knight would be dependant on his armour being conductive all the way to the ground. And even then, the lightning may be powerful enough to heat that armour anyway.

Its probably a moot given the size of forces Hell can deploy, but not all 'knights' were head to toe plate, in fact very few were because of the sheer expense.

Crayz9000 wrote:...

Continuing on this note, just *how* effective are bronze broadswords and spears against steel plate mail? Not very, I'd guess.

One wouldn't imagine so. On the other hand, while the demons are using bronze or brass, they are also able to fire lightning out of this. They're presumably able to do so in close combat, as well, which makes even a touch from such a weapon potentially lethal, unless you're earthed very effectively. They seem to be rather inhumanly strong, too. I expect they'd either use those tridents as clubs against heavily armoured opponents, or just try and close in and pull heads off.

As clubs they wouldn't work well, you would need something with greater momentum, like a mace, to effectively crush that type of armour, but stunning is not out of the question. Thing is that very few people had full plate and even partial plate was rare.

brianeyci wrote:Without a lance, the momentum of a charge is wasted.

Swords will do, they just don't have the range and you have to be careful about retaining your sword.

Besides, I thought only certain demons had the trident, and only the infantry at that. If they are horse archers they sure weren't used like them to start. I suppose we'll see the next battle. Until I see the effectiveness of Abigor's new shoot from range orders I'm going with conventional wisdom that horses with pistols blow.

It was horsemen with pistols that rendered armored horsed cavalry obsolete within fifty years.

Stuart Mackey wrote:Sorry? are you saying that various myths of medieval times are true or saying they are not true?

I was saying that it cold potentially be a disadvantage, but not as much as has been claimed

Oh? how so? one of the medieval fence masters, Tallhoffer I think, mentions that the armoured man is one of the most formidable things you could face in combat, and most of the video's of armoured sparring online seem to confirm this, armour was not overly impairing on ones ability, although you do have to be fit and strong to use it effectively as is true of modern soldiers.

I was thinking most specifically of reports of knights at Agincourt being thrown and drowning, there. It's certainly not a general liability compared to the general lack of equipment of peasant soldiers.

Its probably a moot given the size of forces Hell can deploy, but not all 'knights' were head to toe plate, in fact very few were because of the sheer expense.

It sucks mightily to be the knight who doesn't have thigh guards when hell comes calling.

As clubs they wouldn't work well, you would need something with greater momentum, like a mace, to effectively crush that type of armour, but stunning is not out of the question. Thing is that very few people had full plate and even partial plate was rare.

I was thinking more of their being able to use superior stregth to knock humans to the ground, rather than being able to crush armour like a mace. I was envisioning them knocking humans over, there, and then falling upon them ravenously. Not terribly disciplined or effective, but it seems... characterful.

NecronLord wrote:I was saying that it cold potentially be a disadvantage, but not as much as has been claimed

Ahh, oki-doki

I was thinking most specifically of reports of knights at Agincourt being thrown and drowning, there. It's certainly not a general liability compared to the general lack of equipment of peasant soldiers.

Unless those knights were forced into the water during the press there is no reason they could not rise by themselves. After all people in that get up can do it in this day and age. Of course a lot depends on the depth of the water, men did drown on the western front.

It sucks mightily to be the knight who doesn't have thigh guards when hell comes calling.

Verily, yea hast spake truth.

I was thinking more of their being able to use superior stregth to knock humans to the ground, rather than being able to crush armour like a mace. I was envisioning them knocking humans over, there, and then falling upon them ravenously. Not terribly disciplined or effective, but it seems... characterful.

That would certainly work

Stuart Mackey wrote: Unless those knights were forced into the water during the press there is no reason they could not rise by themselves. After all people in that get up can do it in this day and age. Of course a lot depends on the depth of the water, men did drown on the western front.

There's reports of it being so high that it reached horses bellies in places. Much the same problem as the Western Front; heavily equipped soldiers have difficulty in deep, watery mud. Of course, I expect that the demons would, too.

Which begs the question of what precisely a demon's field kit is. And how much they expect to live off the land (and its inhabitants) - they may starve if stuck out too long...

NecronLord wrote:Which begs the question of what precisely a demon's field kit is. And how much they expect to live off the land (and its inhabitants) - they may starve if stuck out too long...

We know they have tridents..as for food requirements..no information. But if they live of the land, with an army that size, it will have immediate effects as they must move every day to 'graze' or stave. The French army in front of Wellington's fortifications of Torres Vedras is a case in point: They starved because Wellington removed just about all of the food and provisions (and people)of over half of Portugal, because he knew the French lived of the land, and sure enough they were unable to remain in the country.

You know, with all these old pilots being called back into the service, it would be somewhat weird. I mean all these much older pilots having to serve under higher ranking pimple faced officers....
Or people who retired but remained very good friends with other officers who stayed in and climbed the rank charts, returning to work 5 levels of promotion away from 'first name basis'...

And all the pilots wanting 'pappy' as their callsign, thats not going to work.

Also, I wonder how hard it would be to 'kitbash' B52's with newer engines. Instead of 8 smaller, old and hard to find engines, give it 4 bigger modern turbofans from a 747 or something. I mean they are just glorified bomb trucks without enemy SAM or AAA fire to worry about, so the lack of Milspec hardening isn't probably going to be a huge problem in terms of combat damage.
Not an easy thing to do, but probably worth it to get just that many more BUFF's into the air...

And there are something like 20 or so B1's in 'flyable' storage somewhere aren't there, that can be hauled out of the hanger and made flight worthy with a few months of hard work?

Stuart Mackey wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Which begs the question of what precisely a demon's field kit is. And how much they expect to live off the land (and its inhabitants) - they may starve if stuck out too long...

We know they have tridents..as for food requirements..no information. But if they live of the land, with an army that size, it will have immediate effects as they must move every day to 'graze' or stave. The French army in front of Wellington's fortifications of Torres Vedras is a case in point: They starved because Wellington removed just about all of the food and provisions (and people)of over half of Portugal, because he knew the French lived of the land, and sure enough they were unable to remain in the country.

From what the Succubus said, they eat raw (preferrably live) meat. I'm betting they don't drink much water in hell, either.

Pet shop run. What? Gerbils , hamsters and such would provide fresh raw meat for her.


What I meant by Cannae is that while the demon forces attack the Allied center. The two wing forces are now eencircling behind them thus when the demons retreat.....

Chris OFarrell wrote:Also, I wonder how hard it would be to 'kitbash' B52's with newer engines. Instead of 8 smaller, old and hard to find engines, give it 4 bigger modern turbofans from a 747 or something. I mean they are just glorified bomb trucks without enemy SAM or AAA fire to worry about, so the lack of Milspec hardening isn't probably going to be a huge problem in terms of combat damage.

There have been proposals to re-engine the B-52 force with four RB211 or six CFM 56 engines.

And there are something like 20 or so B1's in 'flyable' storage somewhere aren't there, that can be hauled out of the hanger and made flight worthy with a few months of hard work?

If you check the earlier chapters, there's a scene where an inventory is taking place at AMARG.

Typhonis 1 wrote:Pet shop run. What? Gerbils , hamsters and such would provide fresh raw meat for her.


What I meant by Cannae is that while the demon forces attack the Allied center. The two wing forces are now eencircling behind them thus when the demons retreat.....

Correct. This IS Cannae . The only difference is that Abigor is more intelligent than the Roman officers: They continued forward with their ranks still at the same density, whereas Abigor is at least spreading his lines. That will not be enough to save him, though, and will even weaken his blow considerably, not giving him enough mass to really push the enemy hard--not like it matters either way. The Romans at least butchered the Celtibarians and Gauls before being annihilated, though, and Hannibal and his brother had to stand in the front rank at considerable personal danger to get their mercenaries to hold their ground long enough against the Roman advance for the encirclement to be completed.

Frankly, Alfred Graf von Schlieffen could just as easily be in the allied headquarters, as this is a classic pre-WW1 attempt at replicating Cannae played out in full on the field of Iraq. This should be no surprise, as Norman Schwarzkopf admitted in his post-Desert Storm works that his goal was the same (the Highway of Death was the last route open of escape for the Iraqi army, and the airforce, obviously, was able to close it like flying cavalry), and Schlieffen's seminal work Cannae was broadly translated and available at nominal cost to US Army officers and academics after it was published. Eisenhower, et. al., read it as much as the Germans themselves had: For that matter, this is also what German 8th Army's command (Hindenburg and Ludendorff) at the Tannenberg Forest succeeded in doing to Russian Second Army in 1914, as Alexandr Solzhenitsyn grimly recounts in his seminal novel August 1914.

Crayz9000 wrote:I somehow get the feeling that a "knight in shining armor" is going to be almost as terrifying to a lone baldrick as the Iron Chariots are...

Given that the knight will be weighed down significantly by his armor and the Demon is much stronger than he it would still be a pretty uneven fight. Might be more fair or even favorable to the knight if he was on horseback and the Demon was on foot.

Mounted knight vs. mounted Demon might be an interesting match. The Demon is stronger and has a better steed, but with the lance the knight has better reach. Then again, the Demon could probably just zap the horse, or maybe confuse it telepathically depending on how well-covered its head was. You also have to consider the possibility that the Demon's scent will panic the horse; they are natural predators after all.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Also, I wonder how hard it would be to 'kitbash' B52's with newer engines. Instead of 8 smaller, old and hard to find engines, give it 4 bigger modern turbofans from a 747 or something. I mean they are just glorified bomb trucks without enemy SAM or AAA fire to worry about, so the lack of Milspec hardening isn't probably going to be a huge problem in terms of combat damage.
Not an easy thing to do, but probably worth it to get just that many more BUFF's into the air...

The problem with the BUFFs is not the engines, but rather the fact that the wingboxes on all the retired ones were destroyed. We'd have to effectively recreate the tooling, which is close to impossible. Might as well just make a new plane design. Might even be cheaper.

Beowulf wrote: The problem with the BUFFs is not the engines, but rather the fact that the wingboxes on all the retired ones were destroyed. We'd have to effectively recreate the tooling, which is close to impossible. Might as well just make a new plane design. Might even be cheaper.

There are two classes of B-52s at Davis-Monthan. The ones retired for Treaty compliance have had their wing spars and fuselages guilotined and are beyond repair. The ones retired for financial reasons are in pretty good condition and can be brought back quickly.

Re-engining is a nice idea but it would take too long. The need is for aircraft NOW to bridge the gap until new production can arrive on the flight lines.

Beowulf wrote:The problem with the BUFFs is not the engines, but rather the fact that the wingboxes on all the retired ones were destroyed. We'd have to effectively recreate the tooling, which is close to impossible. Might as well just make a new plane design. Might even be cheaper.

I say we dust off the B-70 blueprints and base the new design loosely on them, with modern materials of course. Could do all the modeling and assembly in CAD and use computational fluid dynamics to shave most of the testing time off. The design might take a year from start to finish at most with that methodology.

Failing that, you could take a 747 and have Boeing design a workable bomb bay to fit it. Hey, they turned three of them into Dreamlifters, this should be a piece of cake...

Why in the heck would you need something as overdesigned as a B-70? Its not like the Demons have possessed Mig-31's they are soon going to be sending against the USAF. Finding a way to quickly convert a 747 into a gigantic bomb carrier could be useful however.

What's wrong with cargo planes and daisy cutters? Unless we've got a shortage of cargo planes.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Why in the heck would you need something as overdesigned as a B-70? Its not like the Demons have possessed Mig-31's they are soon going to be sending against the USAF. Finding a way to quickly convert a 747 into a gigantic bomb carrier could be useful however.

I think mainly for the sheer coolness factor, I mean if we're going to the trouble of designing a whole new aircraft, why not something like a B-70?

Besides, it means that strike time in many cases can be measured in terms of 2-3 hours rather than half a day (or more, if they need to get to some remote part of the world). That's the advantage of a triple-Mach plane...

Crayz9000 wrote: I think mainly for the sheer coolness factor, I mean if we're going to the trouble of designing a whole new aircraft, why not something like a B-70?

It's a shame then that a weasel of a Secretary of Defense disagreed that "coolness" is a key factor to look for in a strategic deterrent

Besides, it means that strike time in many cases can be measured in terms of 2-3 hours rather than half a day (or more, if they need to get to some remote part of the world). That's the advantage of a triple-Mach plane...

This ain't TBOverse, we have the luxury of using airbases allover the globe, all we need is permission (if we don't own said bases)

Also The B-70 was meant to fly so fast because they had to beat a Domino's pizza delivery...and make the USSR glow in the dark with the same basic guarantee.

Hell doesn't have a sophisticated air defense system, so the B-52 is more than adequate.

Hell doesn't (to our knowledge) have an effective WMD that we have to play 'beat the clock' with, so subsonic aircraft...be they purpose built bombers or converted civilian aircraft are good enough.

Converting civilian air freighters into bombers probably isn’t going to happen. Most designs, like say the freighter 747s, don’t have rear ramps for starters; they load through side hatches or the nose, making them inherently impractical for bomber conversions (ripping holes in the belly means changes to hydraulic and electrical systems). What’s more, those same air freighters will also be critical to mobilizing world military industry, and for providing logistic support to meet the massive ammunition demands for existing air and ground forces.

One thing that should happen though is the restoration of tail guns on every last B-52. They’d be damn useful to warding off harpy attacks.

Seeing as priorities for bomber-craft for attacking Hell are payload and altitude, it would better pay to, in a situation that would call for the production of new aircraft entirely, base the plans for this new bomber off of the B-60, rather than the B-52.

The B-60 had a massively larger payload than the B-52, 72,000 pounds as opposed to the 60,000 lbs of a modern-day B-52. It also had a higher service ceiling than the B-52, which is helpful for flying above those pesky swarms of wing-flapping-driven Harpies.

Of course, this is really only useful for dropping extreme amounts of conventional weapons, as, if you want to use nuclear weapons, there are a plethora of aircraft that can scoot in, deliver them, and then fly out, all at speeds that a Harpy cannot even begin to match.

KlavoHunter wrote: It also had a higher service ceiling than the B-52, which is helpful for flying above those pesky swarms of wing-flapping-driven Harpies.

Nope. B-52 could fly at 60,000~ feet. Though we can't do that now, since we no longer issue pressure suits to our crew.

MKSheppard wrote:Nope. B-52 could fly at 60,000~ feet. Though we can't do that now, since we no longer issue pressure suits to our crew.

Eh, still - I'm sure a modern version of a B-60 design would be better-suited to dropping an arseload of iron on Baldricks, as opposed to a repeat B-52.