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Sorry, I am just getting damn tired of this whole "post nothing in OOC, get blasted by players complaining they had no warning", "post stuff in OOC in advance, get blasted for doing so" stuff right here.

Especially as it is a fucking lie that this was completely out of the blue, as I already had Rheinland getting involved back when ForceLord posted about his crisis. It almost makes me want to not do anything with regards to diplomatic stuff anymore and just post fluff pieces.

I had also involved San Dorado, but I wasn't consulted on any deal.

You replied before I could finish editing my previous post, so let me just reiterate: Fin and I have been steadily upping the pressure on the border war with no end game in mind, simply to get some kind, any kind of reaction. I think I speak for both of us that we're disillusioned with game activity. I know people are busy and I don't expect daily essays from anyone, but if folks can't even manage a diplomatic 'what's going on guys' message then I'm left wondering who's even playing.

Siege wrote:I had also involved San Dorado, but I wasn't consulted on any deal.

My apologies, but that is not my problem really. I offered, Force Lord took it. Why would San Dorado be involved in Rheinland paying Granadia for immigrants?

Siege wrote:I think I speak for both of us that we're disillusioned with game activity. I know people are busy and I don't expect daily essays from anyone, but if folks can't even manage a diplomatic 'what's going on guys' message then I'm left wondering who's even playing.

I am working on one. The fact that apparently stuff cannot be backdated now means I have about five or six other things to write first (like the pirates, the implementation of the anti-whaling deal, starting to coordinate with the anniversary of the Luftbrücke, the Granadian deal and smoothing things with cascadia).

I am also moving on thursday before flying to a conference from Friday-Sunday at which I am the first to present. So yeah, a bit busy here.

Siege wrote:Who says we've got anything planned out? I've been throwing incidents at the wall to see what will make people respond in any way shape or form so that hopefully the game will actually come alive and take off. So far I'm pretty much coming up with 'nothing will'.

We've been escalating the crisis between Kagaria and the UOCSR on a post by post basis to see what it will take. So far it appears thousands dead in flipping SRBM barrages doesn't appear to be enough.

For me at least, there doesn't seem a lot Champa could or would want to do with a war on another continent. but I'm playing at a tier below nearly everyone else (Go BELKANS!).

Thanas - I'm happy to write up the anti-whaling deal side of things. I'm still just trying to find a use for a fleet of whalers that dosen't involve yet more mines

Sure, anybody who has made a deal with me is under no prohibition to develop the storyline further. This goes for everybody.

Thanas wrote:My apologies, but that is not my problem really. I offered, Force Lord took it. Why would San Dorado be involved in Rheinland paying Granadia for immigrants?

Man I don't know, why would the premier capitalist powerhouse on the planet be involved in saving a nation in financial distress from bankruptcy?

This isn't about your immigration policy, it's about how we had a big kerfuffle before the game even started about people discussing things without anybody else knowing about them. And now here we are.

I mean, don't involve me if you don't want to. But did you two ask Fin? His UOCSR might have some ideas about a nation next door to him being practically bailed out by (and thus becoming dependent on) his other neighbor. That might have consequences for the balance of power on your continent. He might like some input on that. Perhaps you might even value that input. We had repeated discussions about openness here. So what gives?

Siege wrote:I mean, don't involve me if you don't want to. But did you two ask Fin? His UOCSR might have some ideas about a nation next door to him being practically bailed out by (and thus becoming dependent on) his other neighbor. That might have consequences for the balance of power on your continent. He might like some input on that. Perhaps you might even value that input. We had repeated discussions about openness here.

So why am I not consulted on Kagaria despite posting several times in OOC that I want more info about that? I might like some input on that as well. Don't go all "why are you not open Thanas" when you start a full war by using an NPC (which starts a war for reasons nobody really knows). And unlike the UOCSR and Granadia Rheinland and Kagaria actually have a border.

And it wasn't a question of excluding you, you didn't even come up in the discussion - apparently because you did not make an offer to Force Lord or he did not tell me you did.

BTW, if all offers and treaties are now supposed to be made in public and all players being consulted (even those that are not direct neighbours like UOCSR and Granadia), how are you supposed to coordinate co-written posts and how are there ever going to be any surprises in game?

What's going on between Kagaria and the UOCSR is a border incident in the north-easternmost regions, not a "full war" by any stretch of the imagination. We've also been completely open about what's going on, seeing as what's going on is what you're reading in the game thread. There is nothing more to it, because it's written on an ad-hoc basis whenever we happen to have some time to kill.

If you want in on that, by all means let's hear your ideas. But fact is that you were pushing for openness before game start, and here you are making backroom deals with ForceLord even though doing so deliberately excludes multiple people who posted ingame reactions to his initial bankruptcy announcement. You are in no position to complain about being criticized for this.

Thanas wrote:BTW, if all offers and treaties are now supposed to be made in public and all players being consulted (even those that are not direct neighbours like UOCSR and Granadia), how are you supposed to coordinate co-written posts and how are there ever going to be any surprises in game?

You're supposed to take into account offers made ingame and preferably those made OOC. I don't care if you sign a treaty with Orion, I care when you're setting up a bilateral agreement in a situation that's obviously or at least potentially multilateral. Not only does it conflict with your own desire for openness, it closes off potential avenues for player involvement at a stage of the game where player involvement is already sorely lacking. Surely that's not hard to comprehend.

I posted in OOC that I intend to sign a treaty with Granadia. I even included all the details.

I also posted in IC the following:

The Chancellery has released the following statement regarding the crisis in Granadia:

We view with great concern the ongoing situation in our neighbour, the Kingdom of Granadia. Rheinland is offering financial and political assistance to our southern friends, whose stability we view as essential to the region and our own well-being. Therefore the Reichskanzler has instructed the departments of finance, economy and foreing affairs to offer a comprehensive aid package to Granadia that will secure our investments as well as those of ordinary Granadians. At the same time, we urge caution to anybody trying to profit from the misfortune of others.

This post was made on September 03. Nothing happened for several weeks before I even approached Force Lord for a resolution to the crisis. I don't understand what the fuck more I should do here.

If you don't understand even after I just explained what the problem is then there's nothing more I care to say on the subject.

Thanas wrote:I posted in OOC that I intend to sign a treaty with Granadia. I even included all the details.

I also posted in IC the following:

The Chancellery has released the following statement regarding the crisis in Granadia:

We view with great concern the ongoing situation in our neighbour, the Kingdom of Granadia. Rheinland is offering financial and political assistance to our southern friends, whose stability we view as essential to the region and our own well-being. Therefore the Reichskanzler has instructed the departments of finance, economy and foreing affairs to offer a comprehensive aid package to Granadia that will secure our investments as well as those of ordinary Granadians. At the same time, we urge caution to anybody trying to profit from the misfortune of others.

This post was made on September 03. Nothing happened for several weeks before I even approached Force Lord for a resolution to the crisis. I don't understand what the fuck more I should do here.

Do you honestly think that was ever enough?

Siege wrote:If you don't understand even after I just explained what the problem is then there's nothing more I care to say on the subject.

Oh I understand just fine. You complain that nobody plays anymore in response to situations happening. Force Lord creates a situation. On August 19th. Nobody, including you, cares enough for this story post to offer ForceLord anything. After over a month of nobody doing anything I offer ForceLord the assistance of my nation.

Then you chastise me for being the only one to act and offer anything. Well, fine. Go make an offer then in IC. Involve yourself. Don't complain about being shut out after doing nothing for close to a month.

EDIT: If it isn't clear, I release Force Lord from anything he agreed on.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Do you honestly think that was ever enough?

Did you care enough to offer anything to Force Lord? Has he ever received anything from you? Any aid offers?

I'll be the first to admit I've been way more absent than I would like.

That being said, the current border shelling on Eurasia isn't really something I can be involved in. Arcadia is both an island nation cut off from Kagaria and the UOCSR by Rheinland, and can't intervene anyway because not everyone would agree on it.

I would have posted something about the UOCSR stuff, but the last few times I tried to respond people complained that I was getting involved in things half a world away where I had no business being.

Anyway, I'll be posting an update later about my nuclear cargo ships idea and how we're taking it to the next prototype stage.

I think I need to explain myself.

I'm afraid that RL pressures had cut into the time I can devote into this STGOD (university exams are a bitch), not to mention that I still have no clear idea on how the Granadian economic crisis is going to play out. I chose to make no requests to Fin since, in-game, Granadia's fascist leadership doesn't trust the UOCSR, while out-game, I didn't quite know what to suggest to him. As for Siege, I've been trying to come up with a plausible in-game reason, while having the same out-of-game reasons as with Fin. In fact, up until now my intention was to show at least some of the seriousness of the Granadian situation (including terrorism) and wait for someone to respond.

I hope I've been clear.

Force Lord wrote:I think I need to explain myself.

I'm afraid that RL pressures had cut into the time I can devote into this STGOD (university exams are a bitch), not to mention that I still have no clear idea on how the Granadian economic crisis is going to play out. I chose to make no requests to Fin since, in-game, Granadia's fascist leadership doesn't trust the UOCSR, while out-game, I didn't quite know what to suggest to him. As for Siege, I've been trying to come up with a plausible in-game reason, while having the same out-of-game reasons as with Fin. In fact, up until now my intention was to show at least some of the seriousness of the Granadian situation (including terrorism) and wait for someone to respond.

I hope I've been clear.

Well, given that they're among the world's largest banking and financial firms with massive amounts of capital, and since there's no such thing as the IMF... honestly, Granadia's probably going to be up to their eyeballs in busy dealing with the San Doradan megacorporations whether they like it or not. The UOCSR is a somewhat different case since it's not clear whether they're in a position to do anything that would provide economic relief to the Granadians.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I would have posted something about the UOCSR stuff, but the last few times I tried to respond people complained that I was getting involved in things half a world away where I had no business being.

As the whiner-in-chief, I apologize and would like to clarify my stance.

Umeria, specifically, is prickly about having "far foreign" polities set up zones of influence or control in its immediate surroundings. It has a history of getting imperialized half to death, and almost all the surrounding states are themselves very vulnerable to imperialism because they're Third World nations whose governments are varying degrees of corrupt and/or desperate.

Belkan, for instance, is corrupt, Eulica is worse, Champa is relatively noncorrupt but highly desperate in the wake of the Thor accident. The nations of the Vedic peninsula are varying degrees of corrupt and extensively penetrated by at least San Dorado, also in some cases Rheinland and/or who knows who-all else.

So Umeria, specifically, is increasingly tempted to try and declare some kind of "Monroe Doctrine" with regards to eastern Austrafrica, although they aren't quite there yet.

As a side-effect of my own thinking about this, plus various other in-game concerns, I have been excessively cranky about the whole submarine incident for reasons that really shouldn't be making me cranky. I apologize.

Meanwhile, in-character, the Umerians have been cranky for reasons that arguably should make them cranky, because it was part of a larger "several major national navies any one of which could probably overpower the Umerian fleet all send large task forces into easy striking range of our coast" situation. It made them kind of jittery, and the Orion submarine incident just happened to be the most conspicuous part of the whole affair from their point of view because they're the ones who gave the Umerian Navy an embarrassing boot in the rump.

Orion involvement in the affairs of remote nations really shouldn't be a problem and if you're getting thwacked for it too much, please complain to me/whoever's doing it rather than just not interacting with people anymore. I am sincerely glad you're here and playing, not least because you actually have the guts to make your nation act somewhat 'edgy' and be willing to do things that might actually tick someone off.

This reminds me of the sort of stuff Force Lord would get up to in SDNW4, and Force Lord managed to directly trigger one major fun exchange and played a major role in making two or three others more fun.

Siege wrote:We've been escalating the crisis between Kagaria and the UOCSR on a post by post basis to see what it will take. So far it appears thousands dead in flipping SRBM barrages doesn't appear to be enough.

Well, I did a rather micro reaction post (my military attaches are poking around up there to see what's going on). Umeria wouldn't be totally ignoring it; I just haven't thought of a state reaction that would make sense. Helping the Kagarians would be folly on many levels, the UOCSR can take care of themselves quite nicely and frankly their ABM systems are probably better than ours.

So "remain neutral, observe and collect data on the effects of ballistic missiles" seems like a reasonable course for my country. It just doesn't make for interesting posts.

More generally, my creative energy lately has been used on the line of material me and Timothy_C have been working on building up to the RIMPAC naval exercises; I know Steve's been moving so he's been a bit out of the picture since that last burst of posts, and the UOCSR and Kagaria are on the other side of the world from him.

I've got that idea of screwing around in Lothal percolating; I'm not sure what to do with my next post there, but it'll happen. And that was directly touched off by the Maria Eck incident you set up even if it's an indirect response.

Force Lord wrote:As for Siege, I've been trying to come up with a plausible in-game reason, while having the same out-of-game reasons as with Fin.

- AxumFinans is the largest non-state financial institute in the world. It likely holds significant volumes of your sovereign debt. It has bankrolled states before. It is not unreasonable. Under certain conditions refinancing/debt consolidation/interest freezing can be arranged.

- Corporations like Helix, Acheron and Sybiline-Hargreave always look for new markets. If your industries are uncompetitive and the provisions are right they can come in and restructure them for you. Depending on your needs partnerships and/or takeovers are possible.

- If your security services are having difficulty dealing with internal unrest, we can provide mercenaries to do it for you. Their services run the gamut from nonlethal riot control through psyops to brutal suppression of dissent.

- Due to the interwoven nature of San Dorado's corporations combinations of all of the above are possible. As a hypothetical: Axum remits part of your debt, in exchange Acheron takes over and restructures national mines; Acheron pays Axum a percentage of the profits that you agree not to tax. Everyone profits.

Suffice it to say however that if you grant first priority of debt repayment to Rheinland then San Doradan financiers will be very angry with you. And I doubt we will be the only ones. Your borrowing cost premium (and that of your national industries) will skyrocket, limiting access to credit markets. This is probably not a good thing for a nation on the verge of bankruptcy.

Siege wrote:

Force Lord wrote:As for Siege, I've been trying to come up with a plausible in-game reason, while having the same out-of-game reasons as with Fin.

- AxumFinans is the largest non-state financial institute in the world. It likely holds significant volumes of your sovereign debt. It has bankrolled states before. It is not unreasonable. Under certain conditions refinancing/debt consolidation/interest freezing can be arranged.

- Corporations like Helix, Acheron and Sybiline-Hargreave always look for new markets. If your industries are uncompetitive and the provisions are right they can come in and restructure them for you. Depending on your needs partnerships and/or takeovers are possible.

- If your security services are having difficulty dealing with internal unrest, we can provide mercenaries to do it for you. Their services run the gamut from nonlethal riot control through psyops to brutal suppression of dissent.

- Due to the interwoven nature of San Dorado's corporations combinations of all of the above are possible. As a hypothetical: Axum remits part of your debt, in exchange Acheron takes over and restructures national mines; Acheron pays Axum a percentage of the profits that you agree not to tax. Everyone profits.

Suffice it to say however that if you grant first priority of debt repayment to Rheinland then San Doradan financiers will be very angry with you. And I doubt we will be the only ones. Your borrowing cost premium (and that of your national industries) will skyrocket, limiting access to credit markets. This is probably not a good thing for a nation on the verge of bankruptcy.

Huh, quite the balancing game I have to play here. I'd imagine that Rheinland would have significant investments in Granadia already and is competing with San Dorado companies for a bigger piece of the pie. Actually, I think I have an idea for an in-game reason why the deal with Rheinland fell through: a powerful faction inside the Granadian government that's not a fan of the current leader and is in bed with San Doradan corps did not agree and pulled a successful coup, and abruptly cancels the treaty, outraging Rheinland. Fingers are pointed at San Dorado, who pulls its best "innocent face" and goes "Now why would we do that?". Not that San Dorado actually was directly involved with the coup, but certain people did not want to lose their money....

Does it make sense?

Just so you know, there is no mod directive that the deal has to fall through. The deal can always be modified - after all, we will be perfectly willing to finance you even without getting first in debt repayments.

However, a massive coup? That would certainly bring Rheinland to consider all options. Especially if it was clear that this was a San Doradoan financed coup. It would essentially call the entire relationship with San Dorado in question.

The similarities to Ukraine are amusing. But outraging Rheinland is not a sound business strategy. Nor is being perceived to finance coups.

Our issue is very specifically with elements of the treaty, namely the debt repayment and noncompetitive economic asset takeover aspects. Other elements, like the migrant worker programme, do not concern us.

Our goal is to get ahead. Playing a zero-sum game where we lose influence in Rheinland in exchange for influence in Granadia does not further this goal.

Therefore we prefer altering the deal such that both Rhenish and San Doradan interests in Granadia are accounted for, ideally in a way that minimizes state influence and furthers free competition (by corporations with ridiculous piles of money).

Well, about the coup thing, I did say it was just an idea. I'm willing to consider less drastic options.

Simon: apology accepted. I understand the reasons now, so it's cool.

Everyone: I'll be posting a reaction to the UOCSR stuff, specifically the speech, a "we call on Kagaria to embrace peace as do so many other great nations" etc.

Also, It's about time we moved forward with that anti-terrorism conference. RAther than back-dating it we can say it was delayed a month or so. Would May 14th be a good in-game date? And who will be sending representatives again?

If I can find the time, Arcadia most certainly will.