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Kurgan wrote:TFA did have the look and style of a JJ Abrams Star Trek, but I'd be surprised if he had that much creative control.

Is Adywan already working on TFA Revisited?

I'm talking about stuff that they MIGHT explain in future movies, so we should "hold off" and not call them plot holes. That's what I'm talking about.

I'm fully aware there are plot holes in the previous movies. This happens whenever a new Star Wars movie comes out, that it's considered rude to point out flaws, and the defensive reaction is to say flaws existed in earlier movies too. So did the filmmakers purposely screw up or get lazy, because it was expected? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Incidentally, it also runs counter to the general philosophy of this board, which is to attempt to explain away each problem that could crop up in the series. That alone is fine, as long as we don't pretend they never existed in the first place as if our explanations were obviously intended.

Galvatron wrote:

Kurgan wrote:TFA did have the look and style of a JJ Abrams Star Trek, but I'd be surprised if he had that much creative control.

Is Adywan already working on TFA Revisited?

Off topic, I have no idea.

Kurgan wrote:I'm talking about stuff that they MIGHT explain in future movies, so we should "hold off" and not call them plot holes. That's what I'm talking about.

I'm fully aware there are plot holes in the previous movies. This happens whenever a new Star Wars movie comes out, that it's considered rude to point out flaws, and the defensive reaction is to say flaws existed in earlier movies too. So did the filmmakers purposely screw up or get lazy, because it was expected? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Incidentally, it also runs counter to the general philosophy of this board, which is to attempt to explain away each problem that could crop up in the series. That alone is fine, as long as we don't pretend they never existed in the first place as if our explanations were obviously intended.

I don't have a problem with pointing out flaws if the flaws are actually real, as opposed to obviously forced to reinforce a predetermined point of view. Here's all the ones that refer to future films:

Item 4:

The idea that Rey being powerful in the Force is a 'plot hole' as opposed to something that is a legitimate set up (the movie is called The Force Awakens, for fuck's sake. Snoke asks Ren if he's felt 'the awakening' for a reason) merits no further comment save rote dismissal.

Item 7:

Rey understanding Wookie doesn't even need explanation. She must've picked it up on Jakku.

The 'why does Unkar Plutt offer her so much for the droid' thing is probably as simple as 'the First Order has put the word out for the droid and unsavories want to sell it to them'. Like Han Solo's encounter with the gangs on his freighter indicates.

Those are 2 or 3 'plot holes' out of an alleged 40 that may actually require a subsequent film for explanation. The rest are just there because the author is an idiot.

Patroklos wrote:I don't actually see Vader fight back in ROTJ when Luke goes all rage on him. My interpretation of that scene is that Vader is as much defeated by facing and cowering before Luke's near dark side rage rather than anything else, and its that power that Luke then conciously decides to shun that gives his decision power.

That may not be intended, but rather bad choreography on the movies part, but Vader just doesn't look like a competent swordsman at that part of the move. Its bothered me for a long time.

The way Vader grabs the railing is very awkward. And Luke's is practically flailing with wide swings at the start of his attack. So, why did he win? Again, you have to come up with reasons.

It's worth noting that while Vader was trying to turn Luke, Kylo Ren was also trying to turn Rey. It's a similar situation (though Vader wasn't bleeding all over the floor of the throne room for the duration of the fight).

All true, but irrelevant to my point. My point was there is TIME for an arc when it comes to what we see Luke do. We don't see him train with the light saber, but at least we know he has one in his procession, has been introduced tot he force by Obi Want, and is an active fighter in a military organization with every motivation to develope skills applicable to that.

The character was given room to grow, and we see that even after two movies he is still largely an incompetent.

And Rey's been on a hostile world--longer than Luke has been with the Rebels--where she clearly has learned to defend herself. We are shown this.

We see she has melee skills that are completely irrelevant to the weapon she uses later. A staff is not a sword. A helicopter is not a jet. An arc welder is not a plasma torch. All of those pairs of tools do roughly the same thing as the other, but if I just introduced you to one an hour ago it would be completely useless to you even if you were an expert at the other.

There is no time for Rey to go from staff fighter to sword fighter. There was time for Luke to go from playing with a lightsaber for five minutes to sort of was able to use it like a hatchet.

No, it isn't completely irrelevant. Some skills, such as being able to read her opponent's movement will carry over to some extent. She won't be an expert, but she won't be starting over from scratch, either.

Also, just like we don't know (or if) Luke trained with his lightsaber, we don't know what other weapons Rey may have used before. There's no reason to believe the only thing she could fight with is a staff.

Its the exact same standard applied evenly to two different time lines (twently minutes of one movie, 1 and a half feature length movies)

Different timelines? Luke was an expert bolt blocker after a couple minutes of training. He blocked them in a way no normal human ever could. And, yet, nobody has a problem with this.

No, honestly, its not. And its not acute either. All the things I mentioned were happening to Luke right then and there in the Throne room. Now, if there was a scene where we have the background you just mentioned and Ren had just said "I forced your parents to abandon you, and I killed them. Thats why they never came back!" or "I know where your parents are, and I am going to cut them down when I am done with you!". Link the a long standing pain of her abandonment to a shocking revelation and a dire threat to overwhelm her all at once. That's drama.

Oh, right, I forgot, Han's death was so long ago and so doesn't count. She was a fangirl of Han, so she already had more attachment to him than Luke had with Obi-Wan when he died.

Rey, on the other hand, was kidnapped before she had a chance to be incorporated into all of this stuff (obviously she is missing the multi movie buildup for dramatic effect). So again, her rage motivations are quite minimal comared to whats going on with Luke.

It doesn't have to be to the same degree. (I mean, if she one-upped Luke's rage, that'd be another Mary Sue thing for her, right?)

True, and the prequels were shit movies in part because of that.

Anakin having some precog ability wasn't bad in and of itself. It had nothing to do with the quality of the prequels. Their failings would still be there regardless of whether Qui-Gon ever stated that line. (And I don't seem to recall anyone having a particular problem with it, anyway.)

Again, living down to the prequels is not helpful in discussing whether TFA is a good movie or not. This is not a continuity discussion, at least not for me. I am reviewing a movie, which is the topic of this thread.

Whether it fits in reasonably well with established continuity does play a part in the quality of a movie. But, more importantly here, it's funny to see people complain about something happening in one place, but not when it happens elsewhere. (And I'm not talking about just a poorly-executed scene or something like that, but where the complaint is that the event occurred at all.)

The same stuff happens in the OT. Luke can do things with the lightsaber no normal human could do within minutes. He was blindfolded and told to "reach out" and that's all that was required. Nobody complains. Why?

People don't complain about Luke because he's shown to struggle, trains under a master to get better at a single thing and still doubts the utility. Rey got it all very easily without any real hints on how to make it all work.

Block wrote:People don't complain about Luke because he's shown to struggle, trains under a master to get better at a single thing and still doubts the utility. Rey got it all very easily without any real hints on how to make it all work.

No, people don't complain about Luke because they've got almost 40 years of nostalgia preventing them from seeing the blindingly obvious similarities. He isn't shown to struggle in Episode 4. Not a single bit. Everything he tries to do in Episode 4, he is astoundingly competent at, and virtually instantly succeeds.

Vympel wrote:No, people don't complain about Luke because they've got almost 40 years of nostalgia preventing them from seeing the blindingly obvious similarities. He isn't shown to struggle in Episode 4. Not a single bit. Everything he tries to do in Episode 4, he is astoundingly competent at, and virtually instantly succeeds.

I really liked the way he competently defended himself from an ambush. Just like Rey did. It was cute seeing Luke speak to R2 without C3PO translating, like how Rey talks to BB-8. I was impressed with his tech savvy when he hacked the bridge controls. Just like when Rey rigged the FO tech to bypass security doors. I liked the way that Luke needed focus and concentration to wrest his lightsaber out of snow from a few feet away. That's exactly the same as ripping it away from an experienced force user.

Obvious similarities indeed.

Kojiro wrote: I really liked the way he competently defended himself from an ambush. Just like Rey did. It was cute seeing Luke speak to R2 without C3PO translating, like how Rey talks to BB-8. I was impressed with his tech savvy when he hacked the bridge controls. Just like when Rey rigged the FO tech to bypass security doors. I liked the way that Luke needed focus and concentration to wrest his lightsaber out of snow from a few feet away. That's exactly the same as ripping it away from an experienced force user.

Obvious similarities indeed.

Oh please. I love this inane grasping for minor, easily surmountable difficulties in order to ignore how he just breezes through the film accomplishing amazingly difficult and stressful tasks with no effort, even where he has no reason whatsoever to be good at them, or the reason he is good at them is absurd on its face (I used to bullseye womp rats in my civilian airspeeder! Put me in a military starfighter in the climactic battle for survival of your rebellion!)

Hey, forget Luke shooting almost a dozen Stormtroopers dead without pissing his pants, he was mildly inconvenienced by shooting a door! Jesus Christ.

Also, the absurd thing is that the comparisons you draw against Rey, you act as if the film doesn't set up why she knows what she's doing, when it does amply. I mean, fuck, did you not notice that Rey pulls the exact same part from Starkiller Base that she pulled from the Star Destroyer wreckage.

Vympel wrote:Oh please. I love this inane grasping for minor, easily surmountable difficulties in order to ignore how he just breezes through the film accomplishing amazingly difficult and stressful tasks with no effort, even where he has no reason whatsoever to be good at them, or the reason he is good at them absurd on its face (I used to bullseye womp rats in my civilian airspeeder! Put me in a military starfighter in the climactic battle for survival of your rebellion!)

Lol, you claimed he didn't struggle. Then you just dismiss two instances where Luke could have died like he was crossing a road. Yeah Luke 'easily surmounted' those Sand people.

Vympel wrote:Hey, forget Luke shooting almost a dozen Stormtroopers dead without pissing his pants, he was mildly inconvenienced by shooting a door! Jesus Christ.

Yeah but it's totally ok for Rey to hit 3 out of her 5 shots at stormtroopers right? Without pissing her pants?

All this bitching about TFA is just making me realize how dumb ANH was at times, especially after they escaped from the Death Star. I mean, why didn't Han just jump to hyperspace? They were presumably far away from any gravity wells or tractor beams so why hang around and fight the sentry TIEs?

The dumbness continued immediately afterward though, when Leia astutely surmised that the Falcon was being tracked and then led the Death Star to the rebel base anyway. I mean, this was information that she was willing to endure torture, sacrifice her own life and even jeopardize her homeworld to protect, but once she was free to go anywhere in the galaxy she just said "Fuck it, let's make a beeline back to the one place in the universe that we never want the Empire to find."

Couldn't she have at least tried to elude their pursuit? Couldn't she have sent a transmission to someone in the rebellion and simply told Han to rendezvous with a rebel transport (and Han's reward) in deep space or something?

Feel free to split this into a new thread, Vympel. I just thought it was relevant here because of how asinine some of the nitpicks about TFA are.

Galvatron wrote:All this bitching about TFA is just making me realize how dumb ANH was at times, especially after they escaped from the Death Star. I mean, why didn't Han just jump to hyperspace? They were presumably far away from any gravity wells or tractor beams so why hang around and fight the sentry TIEs?

Why do you assume that? Did Alderan have any chunks of debris large enough to create a gravitational field? How about a moon? How about the Death Star itself?

The dumbness continued immediately afterward though, when Leia astutely surmised that the Falcon was being tracked and then led the Death Star to the rebel base anyway. I mean, this was information that she was willing to endure torture, sacrifice her own life and even jeopardize her homeworld to protect, but once she was free to go anywhere in the galaxy she just said "Fuck it, let's make a beeline back to the one place in the universe that we never want the Empire to find."

She went back their because she now had the information needed to at least have a real hope of launching an attack on the thing.

Couldn't she have at least tried to elude their pursuit? Couldn't she have sent a transmission to someone in the rebellion and simply told Han to rendezvous with a rebel transport (and Han's reward) in deep space or something?

See above.

Feel free to split this into a new thread, Vympel. I just thought it was relevant here because of how asinine some of the nitpicks about TFA are.

Its Star Wars fans. Of course there's nitpicking.

Kojiro wrote: Lol, you claimed he didn't struggle. Then you just dismiss two instances where Luke could have died like he was crossing a road. Yeah Luke 'easily surmounted' those Sand people.

So 'he could've died' is the standard now? Ok, so there were no instances at all in TFA where Rey easily could have died, right? Or where she only didn't die due to assistance due to extenuating circumstances? Yes, let's just ignore them, as you ignore Luke's absurd supernatural competence at things he has no right / setup to be competent at.

Yeah but it's totally ok for Rey to hit 3 out of her 5 shots at stormtroopers right? Without pissing her pants?

Are you even paying attention to the argument? That's the whole goddamn point. They're obviously similar.

I've noticed this happens constantly with apologists for Luke's competence who complain about Rey - the moment something gets brought up they can't deal with, the argument magically shifts to "but you say its ok for Rey!"

Its ok for both. I'm not the one with the blinding double standard who demands reams of spell-it-out-for-me-stupid about Rey's competence but excuses Luke's competence without a second thought.

I wonder if we'll see Coruscant again.
I find it really strange that we didn't.

Are the new movies going to ignore the existence of the prequel trilogy, as well as the EU?

For all its purported flaws, I felt the prequel trilogy did some bloody amazing worldbuilding, both in terms of the political scenario and the actual galaxy and planets.
I hope they don't discard all that.

Cykeisme wrote:I wonder if we'll see Coruscant again.
I find it really strange that we didn't.

Are the new movies going to ignore the existence of the prequel trilogy, as well as the EU?

For all its purported flaws, I felt the prequel trilogy did some bloody amazing worldbuilding, both in terms of the political scenario and the actual galaxy and planets.
I hope they don't discard all that.

Unfortunately, I think the Prequel haters (or people misguidedly willing to pander to them) are running the show now.

On the other hand, it may be that having established their credentials, more or less, with the whiny OT fan crowd, they'll be a little less concerned about sucking those peoples' cocks in the future.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Galvatron wrote:All this bitching about TFA is just making me realize how dumb ANH was at times, especially after they escaped from the Death Star. I mean, why didn't Han just jump to hyperspace? They were presumably far away from any gravity wells or tractor beams so why hang around and fight the sentry TIEs?

Why do you assume that? Did Alderan have any chunks of debris large enough to create a gravitational field? How about a moon? How about the Death Star itself?

What about them? A half hour earlier, the Falcon made the jump to hyperspace while still relatively close to Tatooine and three star destroyers.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Galvatron wrote:The dumbness continued immediately afterward though, when Leia astutely surmised that the Falcon was being tracked and then led the Death Star to the rebel base anyway. I mean, this was information that she was willing to endure torture, sacrifice her own life and even jeopardize her homeworld to protect, but once she was free to go anywhere in the galaxy she just said "Fuck it, let's make a beeline back to the one place in the universe that we never want the Empire to find."

She went back their because she now had the information needed to at least have a real hope of launching an attack on the thing.

The information would have done them little good if the Death Star had arrived any sooner and there was no guarantee that it even had an exploitable weakness. Leia's gamble was simply unnecessary.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Unfortunately, I think the Prequel haters (or people misguidedly willing to pander to them) are running the show now.

On the other hand, it may be that having established their credentials, more or less, with the whiny OT fan crowd, they'll be a little less concerned about sucking those peoples' cocks in the future.

It's gonna take more than one good movie to make up for three shitty prequels. I'm not ready for Disney to stop pandering to me and sucking my cock.

Cykeisme wrote:I wonder if we'll see Coruscant again.
I find it really strange that we didn't.

I wish the First Order had destroyed Coruscant instead of a planet we'd never heard of before. That would have had far more impact, IMO.

Cykeisme wrote:I wonder if we'll see Coruscant again.
I find it really strange that we didn't.

Are the new movies going to ignore the existence of the prequel trilogy, as well as the EU?

For all its purported flaws, I felt the prequel trilogy did some bloody amazing worldbuilding, both in terms of the political scenario and the actual galaxy and planets.
I hope they don't discard all that.

actually if they do it right seeing none of the worlds from the PT won't seem odd, most of the OT happend in the ass end of nowhere after all, so apart from a brief clip at the end of SE:ROTJ we didn't see any of the coreworlds, it could be same for this trilogy.

and it's not like they 100% ignored the PT for TFA, there's references to it (or the PT era EU) they're just not prominent or in your face.

I suspect if the story demands to show say for example Naboo and you can't just have it be "Naboo in everything but name" like the Hosni system for Corusant, they will show it.

I've been listening to the soundtrack for the past month and I like it, unlike many of the haters. It stands up wonderfully to repeat hearings, with some complex melodies in Reys theme and other fun stuff.

I think this one is underappreciated for not having any grand and sweeping music.

Lord Revan wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:I wonder if we'll see Coruscant again.
I find it really strange that we didn't.

Are the new movies going to ignore the existence of the prequel trilogy, as well as the EU?

For all its purported flaws, I felt the prequel trilogy did some bloody amazing worldbuilding, both in terms of the political scenario and the actual galaxy and planets.
I hope they don't discard all that.

actually if they do it right seeing none of the worlds from the PT won't seem odd, most of the OT happend in the ass end of nowhere after all, so apart from a brief clip at the end of SE:ROTJ we didn't see any of the coreworlds, it could be same for this trilogy.

and it's not like they 100% ignored the PT for TFA, there's references to it (or the PT era EU) they're just not prominent or in your face.

I suspect if the story demands to show say for example Naboo and you can't just have it be "Naboo in everything but name" like the Hosni system for Corusant, they will show it.

What references to the PT were in Force Awakens?

I know their was a reference to clone soldiers, but that's ambiguous because the existence of the Clone Wars was established in the OT.

you also have some PT era symbols on the flags at the pirate castle. Sudtle but they're there.

On the issue of Rey's competence, it is obvious she was simply strong in the Force. For whatever reason, she also seems to have less of the insecurities that plagued Luke throughout his early training. Another factor easily overlooked is that Luke actually spent very little time on Dagobah. At most we are talking about weeks, though in all likelihood it was less than a week of training with Yoda as well as a couple hours with Obi-Wan. After all of that he was powerful enough to defeat Vader, a combatant far more powerful than Kylo Ren. Rey easily could have had training of some sort before being left on Jakku. Also notice that Luke's real flourishing of abilities into ROTJ only occurred after his encounter with Vader. Rey simply had the fortune for that to occur earlier in her development as a Jedi.

This is besides the fact that Luke's experiences left him a skilled pilot because he enjoyed it, Rey's left her skilled in nearly everything as the alternative was death. It also likely allowed her to subconsciously tap into the Force to a much greater degree.

As for the lack of Rebel plans with regard to the Death Star plans, what real alternative did they have? If the Death Star stayed active, the Rebel Alliance would have been finished with or without Yavin. For all his blustering, Tarkin was correct, fear of the Death Star would indeed keep systems in line. But if it could be destroyed, Leia would then be correct, that fear would turn to anger and the more the Empire attempted to tighten their grip, the more systems would slip through their fingers.

What strategic significance did Yavin really have? It was a long range fighter base with a few dozen fighters at most. Trading that for a chance at destroying the Death Star was absolutely worth it. You could have argued that Dodonna and Leia should have evacuated, which they perhaps should have, but history is full of military commanders taking great personal risk in an attempt to motivate subordinates.

The fact that the Rebel Alliance was unconcerned about the Death Star's arrival too early is likely a result of the fact that they knew something that large would be somewhat slow. Notice in ROTJ that the Rebel fighters all arrive a fair bit before their capital ships. As for the issue of the Rebels knowing there was a flaw, the fact that the Empire was desperate to find the plans indicates that there was likely something. Especially considering the engineering complexity of something on the scale of the Death Star. Which also explains why the Empire didn't correct the flaw in time, an issue pointed out by computer security types, not considering that it is far easier to patch code than it is to engineer major fixes to coolant systems on the largest weapon in galactic history.

Lord Revan wrote:and it's not like they 100% ignored the PT for TFA, there's references to it (or the PT era EU) they're just not prominent or in your face.

Well, that's a good sign!

The prequels had glaring problems in their actual execution (as in particular scenes, lines of dialogue, or side characters), but it painted an amazing picture of an incredible and believable fictional universe.
I suppose there are people that hate the PT with a vengeance, not just the movies, but every part of it, including the worlds and factions, scenarios and setting, but personally I hope those parts are maintained. If not the specific planets and such, then at least the feel and history of the universe.

I think it's actually a blessing that JJ Abrams did zero worldbuilding, because that leaves a blank slate for the coming movies to paint on. Or perhaps this was indeed the intention by the powers-that-be at Disney?

Adam Reynolds wrote:Also notice that Luke's real flourishing of abilities into ROTJ only occurred after his encounter with Vader. Rey simply had the fortune for that to occur earlier in her development as a Jedi.

This is actually a very interesting observation!

It does suggest that direct conflict with another more powerful/experienced Force user causes a budding neophyte to experience a jump in their ability.
I mean, some degree of this should be obvious already (surviving a life-or-death fight ought to make any combatant much more effective), but it does seem to indicate that it gives them a boost in Force-using experience beyond even what we'd normally expect.

Come to think of it, Obi-Wan's encounter with Darth Maul on Tatooine probably was obviously a defining moment in his career as a Jedi, but may have spurred him on to significantly improving his skills, more than we'd expect.

So in general, that the whole Force interrogation session could have actually given Rey what she needed to tap into her latent talents and later hold her own in the over physical confrontation at the end of the movie.


For the record, I'm not a big fan of TFA (there are a lot of nigh-unforgivable flaws in it), but I'm quite willing for the coming sequels to redeem the new movies in general, and TFA itself in particular (by fleshing out the missing parts).

something that I thought of maybe Rey is better at the martial aspects of the Force while not being as good with the non-martial aspects. I mean TFA is the first time in the main films that mind trick failed because the user wasn't good enough, with Watto it failed due being used on species that had immunity and same is implied but not shown for Jabba in ROTJ.

Maybe that's where Rey's growth for the next 2 movies comes from, of having to make peace with herself and master the non-martial uses of the Force.

Lord Revan wrote:something that I thought of maybe Rey is better at the martial aspects of the Force while not being as good with the non-martial aspects. I mean TFA is the first time in the main films that mind trick failed because the user wasn't good enough, with Watto it failed due being used on species that had immunity and same is implied but not shown for Jabba in ROTJ.

Maybe that's where Rey's growth for the next 2 movies comes from, of having to make peace with herself and master the non-martial uses of the Force.

I always felt like the mind trick was more about force of will than any major species difference. Jabba and Watto were both being asked to give up things they would never be willing to. As for Watto's comments about species, it is likely that it is something he believed rather than something that was fundamentally true. It also seems Anakin used it to some degree against Watto in AOTC as well.

Stormtroopers, being indoctrinated to follow orders, are likely more susceptible to it than the average individual.

Adam Reynolds wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:something that I thought of maybe Rey is better at the martial aspects of the Force while not being as good with the non-martial aspects. I mean TFA is the first time in the main films that mind trick failed because the user wasn't good enough, with Watto it failed due being used on species that had immunity and same is implied but not shown for Jabba in ROTJ.

Maybe that's where Rey's growth for the next 2 movies comes from, of having to make peace with herself and master the non-martial uses of the Force.

I always felt like the mind trick was more about force of will than any major species difference. Jabba and Watto were both being asked to give up things they would never be willing to. As for Watto's comments about species, it is likely that it is something he believed rather than something that was fundamentally true. It also seems Anakin used it to some degree against Watto in AOTC as well.

Stormtroopers, being indoctrinated to follow orders, are likely more susceptible to it than the average individual.

likely, as obi-wan states pretty much so, which makes it more signifigant that Rey failed it first rather then automatically succeeding.