StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Shroom Man 777 wrote:What?

I mean, seriously, what?

Your statement is bringing up a picture of Shep lining up all those food shipments and supplies on his dining table, while he puts a table napkin around his neck and holds a fork and a knife in his hands

The MESS isn't giving aid shipments to these Shepistanis, and I think a lot of people are leery of supplying Shepistan with stuff. I'm the only one who's ensuring that his people don't degenerate into cannibalism

Huh.. How do you think the state of N.Korea survived for the last 50 years?

Brief writeup on my southern NPC neighbor:

Tanstaafl

The Tanstaafl Raj was ancient when even the oldest cities of the Old Continent were young. Unfortunately, it was also fairly stagnant and held back by the very location in which it was established, so whereas the nations of the Old Continent flourished and went on to build proud world-spanning empires Tanstaafl never became more than a regional power, holding sway over a not-insignificant area of north-western Frequesue.

By the time the famous explorer Sir Siegfried Schrom arrived on the shores of Frequesue the Raj had fallen far from its once-mighty position of power however. The eastern provinces had been overrun by fanatical religious zealots, and the Maharaja had trouble retaining control of its lands in the south. The Maharaja therefore was more than happy to make a deal with Sir Schrom: the Shroomanian Empire gained an abandoned Tanstaafl fort on the northern coast to be used as a trading post, and Shroomania would sell Tanstaafl modern muskets and breech-loading cannonry that made the primitive cannons of the local Frequesuan powers of the time look like children’s toys.

Ever since, the trading post – which would grow to become the metropolis San Dorado – and the Raj have maintained cordial relations. The two powers have several roughly similar interests: containing the fanatical militias of the Costa de las Cinco Muertes, keeping the great powers off the Old Continent off Frequesue, and ensuring that the locality remains relatively peaceful.

Still, this does not mean there are the occasional ruffled feathers between the two nations. The Maharaja considers himself the senior partner in the relation, something the President obviously disagrees with. Both Tanstaafl and San Dorado aspire to be the dominant power in north-western Frequesue, and at the end of the day, the President in his seventy-year-old skyscraper palace and the Maharaja in his thousand-year-old citadel have too different an outlook on the world to be anything more than allies of convenience.

The capital of the Tanstaafl Raj is the city of Sri Kalahasti. The Raj counts some eighteen million souls, and is a fairly militant state, although its military equipment is second-rate at best. The Raj still claims the eastern Costa de las Cinco Muertes, and frequently mounts punitive expeditions in that direction.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Well, his citizens are starving and you are feeding him?

No one knows what shep is planning to do, everyone calm down.

Hey phong, what the hell are those Aegis CSGNs? One of the reasons behind the "only existing stuff or reasonable extrapolation thereof" is that people will (generally) have some idea what the heck you're using, or can otherwise easily look it up.

The only CSGN I know of never made it off paper so I'm not sure how that would qualify as something you'd have an initial run of. If it's different, could you clarify?

PeZook
I noticed a slight problem in your new history:

They have overwhelmed the dreadnought's battle group, and managed to cripple and board the dreadnought itself, capturing Fleet Admiral Murderous von Shrom.

Ironically enough, it was Fleet Admiral Murderous MacMillan who won the battle, not six months after he was captured and sold back.

Who is it?

Oh. I shall change it right away

RogueIce wrote:The only CSGN I know of never made it off paper so I'm not sure how that would qualify as something you'd have an initial run of. If it's different, could you clarify?

It's a 17000 ton nuclear Aegis ship with some armor, an 8" gun, two VLS, two helicopters, etc. It was a paper design, but wasn't that far away from production (cancelled in favor of CG-47). I thought it entirely reasonable to have.

Lonestar wrote:Well, don't put it iin your OOB yet, because no one has agreed to it.

Well, it's in the tenative one to use up points.

I might add that medium and heavy ADA might fall under Theater ABM, at least, so it's redundant.

It is, honestly, but I need something to put in for ground-launched SM-3, for example.

BTW, since Senators/Mods are getting a +1 to theior country level, I'll keep Canissia the same size as it was before and trade "land mass" points for increases in "education" and overall higher standard of living.

I'm working out my military points but since much military stuff is determined by geography, the sooner we get the overall map will be helpful.

On the trainer front, I should point out that category includes your basic and intermediate pilot training aircraft, not just weaponised aircraft based on trainer airframes.

So while it's cool to do the latter, you have to keep in mind the former as well. Otherwise you'll have a tough time training new pilots.

As to the whole ABM thing, I'll have to consider. On the one hand, I'd rather not add more categories to the already long Army list. On the other, I suppose...

Hm... Perhaps we could just use some common sense on this one? Like you purchase 16 Heavy ADA, make 4 of those your land-based SM-3s (or whatever) and the rest S-300 or THAAD? I mean in the points system I could probably juggle it to have a 12 CVN Navy with airwings, but that'd be a bit beyond my economy so I won't.

So just don't flood it with an unrealisticly heavy-duty air defense system while claiming "but I have the points!" perhaps?

In regards to Navy aircraft--

Unless it is "specialty" (ie, an AWACs), or a fighter wing, are we just assuming that the points cost of ships automatically includes the 1 or 2 ASW helicopters that come with their Earth analogues?

The Ticonderoga cruiser, for example, has 2 SH-60 anti-sub Seahawk helicopters as part of its normal weapons complement. The Wasp-class Amphibs have all sorts of ordinary transport helicopters and smaller, embarked landing craft and air-cushion landing craft. These embarked craft (air and sea) are all part of those ship's jobs-- so I take it we don't have to allot points to them individually, right?

Navy stats so far:

CAPITAL WARSHIPS: 1000 points allocated from 3000 point limit.

"Triton"-class Cruiser-Carrier (Nuclear "Admiral Kuznetsov" analogue) =16 pts.
+3 flights of F-35/C (4 pts per flight = 12 pts)
+1 E2 Hawkeye-type AWACs (=1 pt.)
Ship + Planes = 29 points.

"Neptune"-class Amphib Assault (Nuclear "Wasp" analogues) =16 pts.
+3 flights AV-8B (2 points per flight = 6 pts)
+1 E2 Hawkeye-type AWACs (=1 pt.)
Ship + Planes = 23 points.

"Kraken"-class Cruisers (Nuclear "Ticonderoga" analogues) =12 pts.

"Raidaa"-class Destroyers ("Arleigh-Burke /Flight IIA" analogues) =4 pts.

"F100"-lass Frigates ("F100" analogues) =2 pts.

"Anuket"-class Corvettes (NATO-ized Russian "Tarantul" analogues) =1 pt.

"Pegasus"-class Hydrofoils ("Pegasus"-class analogues) =1 pt.

"Victoria"-class SSKs ("Victoria"-class SSK analogue) =2 pts.

"Seawolf"-class SSNs ("Seawolf"-class SSN analogue) =4 pts.

"Leviathan"-class SSBNs ("Ohio"-class SSBN analogue) =4 pts.


CANISSIAN ROYAL NAVY:
4 "Triton"-class Carriers (116 pts)
4 "Neptune"-class Amphib Assault (92 pts)
10 "Kraken"-class Cruisers (120 pts)
40 "Raidaa"-class Destroyers (160 pts)
50 "F100"-class Frigates (100 pts)
30 "Anuket"-class Corvettes (30 pts)
30 "Pegasus"-class Corvette/Hydrofoils (30 pts)
14 "Victoria"-class SSKs (28 pts)
8 "Seawolf"-class SSNs (32 pts)
4 "Leviathan"-class SSBNs (16 pts)

SEAL Team 1 = 4 points
SEAL Team 2 = 4 points
SEAL Team 3 = 4 points
SEAL Team 4 = 4 points


740 points spent/260 left

RogueIce wrote:On the trainer front, I should point out that category includes your basic and intermediate pilot training aircraft, not just weaponised aircraft based on trainer airframes.

Alrighty.

As to the whole ABM thing, I'll have to consider. On the one hand, I'd rather not add more categories to the already long Army list. On the other, I suppose...

My spreadsheet variant has split off a bunch of things. You're also missing an intermediary air-defense system size between Light and Medium; systems like Crotale, Tor, Rapier, etc. fit there. Call it 1.5 points?

So just don't flood it with an unrealisticly heavy-duty air defense system while claiming "but I have the points!" perhaps?

Oh come now, it's no more dense than, say, ARADCOM was if I have 65 batteries entirely for homeland defense

Coyote wrote:In regards to Navy aircraft--

Unless it is "specialty" (ie, an AWACs), or a fighter wing, are we just assuming that the points cost of ships automatically includes the 1 or 2 ASW helicopters that come with their Earth analogues?

Apparently they don't come with them, as far as I can tell. I costed a maritime utility helicopter = army utility, and the usual LAMPS helo to be like army attack.

phongn wrote:

Coyote wrote:In regards to Navy aircraft--

Unless it is "specialty" (ie, an AWACs), or a fighter wing, are we just assuming that the points cost of ships automatically includes the 1 or 2 ASW helicopters that come with their Earth analogues?

Apparently they don't come with them, as far as I can tell. I costed a maritime utility helicopter = army utility, and the usual LAMPS helo to be like army attack.

That seems odd. Would these ships truly deploy for a serious mission without their helos? The helos are an integral part of their ASW capability; it's like saying they might deploy without their radar... wouldn't it?

Might as well say the same thing about carriers, then, really.

Nuclear "Admiral Kuznetsov" - far too significant change
Nuclear "Wasp"- ditto
Nuclear Tico - same

SSBNs are illegal. F-35s are limited to a single flight worth (prototype aircraft still). And even if they weren't, you'd be over the other limit of 5th gen fighters. Wasps can't operate an E-2 anyway.

Well, we're still waiting on approval for nuclear-Aegis.

Is the S-400 selectable as a heavy air defense artillery or is that system too new?

Vohu Manah wrote:Is the S-400 selectable as a heavy air defense artillery or is that system too new?

I would think you could. The only issue is whether we are going to pretend it works. (None of us are certain they have resolved the technical issues)

Bear in mind the nuclear-powered surface ships are analogues-- not direct, re-engineered Ticos, Wasps, and Kuznetsovs. Just in the "sorta-like-this" category. What makes them no-gos?

I can buy the ASW helos no problem, I have the points, I just wondered about them since I saw them as weapon components to a greater system, with most of the capability being the ASW weapons of the surface ships.

Why are SSBNs illegal? The nuclear weapons, sure, but they can launch non-nuclear missiles.

This will be an odd world indeed if we have things like Aegis systems, OTH firing, V-launch tubes on cruisers, F-22s in limited numbers, but our missile tech is barely past the V2 stage. Would it be better to say that we are coming to power at a time when a vast, worldwide treaty was signed that banned certain types of weapons, and lo and behold all our predecessor adhered to it? That's a bit of a stretch, to be sure, but not as much of a stretch as saying we have all this modern tech but never figured out Sidewinder missiles.

Coyote wrote:Why are SSBNs illegal? The nuclear weapons, sure, but they can launch non-nuclear missiles.

What's the point, then? It's terribly expensive, and once nukes come into play, the moment an SLBM launch occurs everyone will assume it's an incoming nuke. SSGN might be a better idea.

This will be an odd world indeed if we have things like Aegis systems, OTH firing, V-launch tubes on cruisers, F-22s in limited numbers, but our missile tech is barely past the V2 stage. Would it be better to say that we are coming to power at a time when a vast, worldwide treaty was signed that banned certain types of weapons, and lo and behold all our predecessor adhered to it? That's a bit of a stretch, to be sure, but not as much of a stretch as saying we have all this modern tech but never figured out Sidewinder missiles.

Well, everyone has guided missiles; the only thing apparently prohibited at the moment are SRBMs and larger.

Coyote wrote:This will be an odd world indeed if we have things like Aegis systems, OTH firing, V-launch tubes on cruisers, F-22s in limited numbers, but our missile tech is barely past the V2 stage. Would it be better to say that we are coming to power at a time when a vast, worldwide treaty was signed that banned certain types of weapons, and lo and behold all our predecessor adhered to it? That's a bit of a stretch, to be sure, but not as much of a stretch as saying we have all this modern tech but never figured out Sidewinder missiles.

I think it would be better to say the industry just wasn't quite built up yet. If we never figured out Sidewinder missiles, it makes some of our fighters moot as well, as the fighters were designed in some ways to give a pilot a charge to dodge these missiles.

Actually, there are legitimate concerns from some corners about people who might've wanted an ahistorical development track.

How about a World war 2 type conflict, only the A-bomb was invented by the loser? Part of the peace treaty forbid developing or deploying this new technology.

Got a couple of OOB battle questions: Is there any way to buy cruise anti-shipping cruise missiles for shore defense with points? That is definitely something my nation would want to invest in. Also, are we just assuming everyone has some naval mine warfare vessels, because they are not purchasable. Perhaps we should be able to get 2-4 for a point or something?

Raj Ahten wrote:Got a couple of OOB battle questions: Is there any way to buy cruise anti-shipping cruise missiles for shore defense with points? That is definitely something my nation would want to invest in. Also, are we just assuming everyone has some naval mine warfare vessels, because they are not purchasable. Perhaps we should be able to get 2-4 for a point or something?

Dedicated mine warfare vessels are going out of favor these days. They're expensive, for one, and it might be better to have every ship with some equipment (along with helicopters).

And yeah, ground-based SSM batteries are something that need to be handled too.