The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes, police brutality and violence against the non-violent is wrong, but you're naive if you think that's not a real risk to any sort of protest.

Hey, in my country a bunch of farmers got shot and killed because they were protesting against landowners who happened to be from the same obscenely rich oligarchical political dynasty as the President during that time, and now in present too.

Also, the other year, half a hundred people including journos were killed by the governor's private paramilitary death squad and buried in a mass grave, because these guys were going to vote for the governor's political rival (and the dead included the political rival's wife and other family members). Those dead people got killed by government-issued firearms and buried with, like, bulldozers and backhoes. And now, apparently that former governor (his rival won the election and is now governor, and a few months ago nearly got blown up by an IED targeting his convoy) isn't going to jail at all, cause they can't tie him to murdering all those guys.

And the other-other-other year this other guy also made a protest. Him and his unit of special forces went into a mall at night and placed claymores and landmines on the parking lots and gardens. After a stand off, he stood down and got arrested. Then, months or something later, he and his special forces troops took over a hotel, before the police drove an APC or something into the lobby and flash banged and tear gassed everyone, and threw these guys back into jail. Then he ended up getting elected as a Senator (while in jail). So, there's influencing the ballot box for you.

One of our other Senators fled the country for a while because he was wanted for murdering people during his time as the chief of police.

And, like, another one of our Senators also led rogue military units to try and coup the government back in the 80s. But it failed (thanks to the US flying fighter jets to show their support to the administration, and scaring the shit out of the coupers). He's still a senator now though. Runs as an independent, I think.

Another Senator was also the former defense secretary of Marcos, and like he was one of the orchestrators of Martial Law and was probably responsible for killing and/or imprisoning all those guys. But he ended up betraying Marcos, and so now he's okay and still in the Senate. He wears Horatio Caine sunglasses all the time because he's cool like that.

And we've also got stuff like student activists, commie-supporting priests and doctors, and other such folks being disappeared, indefinitely jailed, or just shot in the streets like, all the time.

God, I love my country.

So, yeah. I know there's a real risk of people breaking out the white phosphorus bayonets on the protesters.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As a UC Davis Alum, this was in my email tonight:

Sherry Lansing, UC Board of regents.

UC Board of Regents chair Sherry Lansing says in a video statement that she is "shocked and appalled" by the images of police actions during recent student protests at UC Berkeley and UC Davis.
Lansing supports UC President Mark Yudof's effort to review systemwide procedures so that students can engage in peaceful protests.

"We regents share your passion and your conviction for the University of California," Lansing says. "We want all of you to know that we fully and unequivocally support your right to protest peacefully."

Lansing also invites the people to express their views at the Board of Regents meeting on Nov. 28. The rescheduled meeting will be open to the public and connected by a teleconference with regents participating from UC San Francisco-Mission Bay, UCLA, UC Davis and UC Merced. As usual, the meeting will also be streamed online. The public comment period has been expanded from 20 minutes to at least one hour.

And another bit from UC President Mark Yudof. They don't usually react this fast, they must be worried.

[Broomstick]

Yes, police brutality and violence against the non-violent is wrong, but you're naive if you think that's not a real risk to any sort of protest.

...[snip examples of government brutality]...

So, yeah. I know there's a real risk of people breaking out the white phosphorus bayonets on the protesters.

Yeah, but you're from the Phillipines, where such things are so blatant you can't really ignore them.

[D.Turtle]

Broomstick - while I agree with most of what you said, I think it is still quite understandable and useful to express outrage and disapproval with excess violence perpetrated by the police.

Yes, it could be worse - but it could also be better.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, but you're from the Phillipines, where such things are so blatant you can't really ignore them.

Yes we can. We ignore them all the time. We've been ignoring it for, like, forever. And if you call within the next five minutes, you too can learn how. But wait, there's more. Call right now, and you can not only elect the perpetrators of violence into office as you've already have, but get the function to automatically elect their children and their children's children, for absolutely free. But wait, there's more!

[Broomstick]

Broomstick - while I agree with most of what you said, I think it is still quite understandable and useful to express outrage and disapproval with excess violence perpetrated by the police.

Of course - because, you see, non-violent protest wouldn't work at all if people didn't express their outrage and disapproval at such treatment of the unarmed and non-violent!

[TithonusSyndrome]

And the OWS movement suffers its fatality:

A protester in Seattle, Washington aligned with Occupy Wall Street says that an assault from a cop last week has caused a miscarriage, which if true marks the first loss of life from police brutality since the demonstrations began two months ago.

Photographers were on hand November 15 to document 19-year-old Jennifer Fox being pepper-sprayed by police in Seattle while participating in an Occupy protest on the West Coast. Along with an assault on an 84-year-old activist, the incident involving Fox, then pregnant, was arguably not only the most disturbing scene out of the Occupy Seattle movement but out of the international demonstrations altogether. Less than a week later now, Fox says that she has suffered a miscarriage and according to her, doctors say that an attack from police is to blame.

"Everything was going okay until yesterday, when I started getting sick, cramps started, and I felt like I was going to pass out," Fox tells The Stranger out of Seattle.

Although a checkup with her physician a month earlier proved the unborn child to be in perfect health, Fox says that things took a turn for the worst this week after her confrontation with the Seattle police. Five days after she was pepper sprayed and assaulted by cops, she found out on November 20 that the heart of her child stopped beating and she was experiencing a miscarriage.

Fox tells the Stranger that her physician says that police action led to the incident. While her reaction to a blast of pepper spray was caught on film, Fox adds that that was just a part of what she had to experience in Seattle last week.

"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," says Fox. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'" From there, she says, an officer with the Seattle Police Department lifted his foot, kicking her in the stomach. A moment later, another office charged at her on his bicycle, again attacking her and her unborn child.

"Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," she says.

Checking in with doctors this week after experiencing excruciating pain, Fox tells The Stranger that physicians told her, “the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it [the fetus], too."

"I was worried about it, but I didn't know it would be this bad,” she says. “I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet.”

Fox adds that she is trying to obtain an attorney to represent her so that she can attempt to prosecute the Seattle PD over the assault. Across the country in New York City, two Occupy Wall Street protesters filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit against the NYPD on Monday alleging that they were falsely arrested and suffered from excessive police force during a demonstration there.

Though police action across the country has spawned a few outbursts of brutality since the Occupy movement began, until Fox’s revelation there have been no deaths reported as a result of departmental force. Last month, US Military vet Scott Olsen suffered a fractured skull after being hit by a police projectile and though originally admitted to a hospital in critical condition, has since greatly recovered.

The Stranger and other outlets are currently investigation the legitimacy of Fox’s claims, seeking more information to confirm that the police assault could have indeed led to her miscarriage.

If you've ever seen Battle in Seattle, maybe you'll remember a scene where the visibly pregnant Charlize Theron, not participating in any protests or rioting, is specifically struck in the abdomen by a police thug with a baton. I remember being harrowed when first seeing it and then doing a double-take, thinking that perhaps it was a little too sadistic to be real... and then this happens. This is just really, really sad in a way that ought to be obvious to everyone, and yet I know that the only reaction this will get from the right, if any, will be the same kind of defensive, victimized rhetoric that followed Gabby Giffords' shooting. I just don't know how to be upset about that without seeming like I'm making political hay out of the miscarriage of an infant following its deliberate targeting after its mother surrendered and asked to be let out, which is dismally conflicting. The only thought that seems safe from that kind of perceived partisanship is to just return to meditating on how broken the political landscape in America is right now, which doesn't seem like such an abstract gripe in light of this.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Its not the first death. There's been deaths from drugs and exposure already in a few cities, and at least one fatal stabbing.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Alright, the first police brutality death. Those other deaths are unfortunate, but they're basically made up of the background criminal noise from the cities they're based in or some logistical failures and poor choices on the part of some participants. They're not the kind of milestone in savagery that this death represents.

[Count Chocula]

Here's why the OWS movement, as it currently stands, has ZERO NIL NIX GOOSE EGGS NADA BUPKIS chance of effecting any change:

No message and no leader(s).

Lots of people have grievances, many of those valid. But, a general "the government sucks!" or "crony capitalism sucks!" or "bankers suck!" complaint is nothing but an emotional appeal. So far, the Occupy Park X protesters, after two plus months, have no plan of action or solution. In addition, the message that INDIVIDUAL protesters may have has been overshadowed by the arrests, filth, fools, rapes, deaths and police actions associated with the protests. The past months have made the OWS protesters, as a group, look like mindless rabble. Chanting "Mike Check!" and "This Is What Democracy Looks Like!" and smoking pot while disrupting 99%er businesses does nothing to articulate remedies.

Every movement aimed at implementing political change has goals and leaders. The American revolution had goals, clearly articulated, and leaders. The French revolution had goals and leaders. The US Civil War had goals and leaders. The Indian independence movement had goals and leaders, especially Gandhi. The IRA had/has goals and leaders. The US Prohibition movement had goals and leaders. The American civil rights movement had goals and leaders, and where there was violence it was not due to the movement, except for that Malcolm X fellow. The NVA had goals and leaders. The Tea Party has goals and leaders. Who are the OWS leaders? Dunno. What are the group's goals? Dunno.

Without a coherent message and at least a semblance of a platform, the OWS participants will remain persons of ridicule and mockery in the eyes of a majority of Americans. They are demonstrating a laughable lack of understanding of history and the success of political movements.

[Terralthra]

Here's why the OWS movement, as it currently stands, has ZERO NIL NIX GOOSE EGGS NADA BUPKIS chance of effecting any change:

No message and no leader(s).

Lots of people have grievances, many of those valid. But, a general "the government sucks!" or "crony capitalism sucks!" or "bankers suck!" complaint is nothing but an emotional appeal. So far, the Occupy Park X protesters, after two plus months, have no plan of action or solution. In addition, the message that INDIVIDUAL protesters may have has been overshadowed by the arrests, filth, fools, rapes, deaths and police actions associated with the protests. The past months have made the OWS protesters, as a group, look like mindless rabble. Chanting "Mike Check!" and "This Is What Democracy Looks Like!" and smoking pot while disrupting 99%er businesses does nothing to articulate remedies.

Every movement aimed at implementing political change has goals and leaders. The American revolution had goals, clearly articulated, and leaders. The French revolution had goals and leaders. The US Civil War had goals and leaders. The Indian independence movement had goals and leaders, especially Gandhi. The IRA had/has goals and leaders. The US Prohibition movement had goals and leaders. The American civil rights movement had goals and leaders, and where there was violence it was not due to the movement, except for that Malcolm X fellow. The NVA had goals and leaders. The Tea Party has goals and leaders. Who are the OWS leaders? Dunno. What are the group's goals? Dunno.

Without a coherent message and at least a semblance of a platform, the OWS participants will remain persons of ridicule and mockery in the eyes of a majority of Americans. They are demonstrating a laughable lack of understanding of history and the success of political movements.

I'd like to thank Chewbacca and Chocula for reposting an conservative email forward as if it was representative of OWS and also for discovering that OWS was initially organized by Adbusters, a fact revealed on the first page of this thread. Clearly, the movement has now been exposed as a sham and we can all go home.

Yes, revealed in post #1 with one word, then NOT MENTIONED AT ALL until Page 35 of this trainwreck. They're a non-profit corporation. Who else is behind OWS? I know; do you? By the way, dumbass, that "conservative email forward" is what I pulled FROM THE OWS WEBSITE. Gee, where do they get the money to have a Web site? Who makes their computers? Isn't Twitter a corporation? How many Dells, Droids and iPhones are in OWS protestors' hands? Shit, I hope their tents and sleeping bags weren't made by Gander Mountain or purchased at Big 5 or Wal Mart! And those sons of bitches better not be wearing Levi's! Oh, the irony.

I find the entire OWS (bowel) movement laughable and irrelevant for the following partial list of reasons:

• No message
• No objectives
• Disruption of "99 percenter" businesses
• Unreported rape as a matter of policy
• Shitting in public
• Pissing in public
• Masturbating in public
• Felony assaults against police officers and media
• Theft and vandalism, even among their own
• Promises of violence
• Desire to literally eat the rich
• Rampant medieval diseases at camps
• Litter and filth so bad that occupiers are forced out by police so sanitation workers can clean their literal shit so they can squat some more
• Rebellion without a cause
• Did I mention no objectives?

You're welcome.

You know, you already posted a rant incorporating all your Fox News talking points (helpfully quoted above), and got soundly chased out of the thread by posts full of facts. Until and unless you actually respond to those, then I'd kindly appreciate your abiding by DR#5. Amusingly, it's interesting to note the tone change from only a week ago.

[TithonusSyndrome]

For that matter, Chocula doesn't even establish why leaders are necessary; he just points to examples of successful revolutionary actions with clearly defined leadership structures in the past and recites the obvious. This doesn't do anything to address the mechanics of why leaders are necessary, it just says "leaders have helped prior movements". Whoopie.

[Stark]

I think it's more amusing that he's equating his IGNORANCE of the OWS thing as reality - he doesn't know the message, therefore it doesn't exist.

But if it has no message ... How can unreported rape be a matter of policy?!?

Its fascinating to me that anyone would even mention the impact of strikes on business or people in the strike areas. Is this really why people should see their taxes given to bankers (or whatever)? Becuase complaining about it might be noisy or block a road?

[Serafina]

He also completely ignores the question how far into the movement in question a clear leadership structure appeared. But apparently every successful political movement ever started out with a clearly defined leadership

[Count Chocula]

He also completely ignores the question how far into the movement in question a clear leadership structure appeared. But apparently every successful political movement ever started out with a clearly defined leadership

I (paraphrasing) said the OWS protesters won't be credible until that occurs. I'm not obligated to set a time for when that happens. So feel free to shout "neener, neener" when that happens but until then f*ck off.

[Serafina]

Ironically, all the movements you named as examples also weren't seem as credible for quite a while after they had clearly defined leadership.
And even then they were mostly seen as credible threats. Which OWS already is, given how some people react to it.

[Stark]

I'm not sure you're their target market, dude. Should I make a series of fictional quotes from people like you in previous movements? 'dern nigras never gon be mayor, no sah, no mattah how many bannahs they wave!'

It's normal to try to mentally reject things that challenge social norms, but that shouldn't stop you thinking about what is happening. This is particularly alarming becuase as a conservative, you probably agree with the whole 'less corporate welfare plz' thing. You're just scared to agree with anything that has been 'othered'.

[Count Chocula]

I'm not sure you're their target market, dude. Should I make a series of fictional quotes from people like you in previous movements? 'dern nigras never gon be mayor, no sah, no mattah how many bannahs they wave!'

First off, your first three sentences are just pathetic. You equate my mindset to 1950s-1960s American bigots, then try to imitate a Southern accent in type. Fail. That accent, BTW, is also the stereotypical southern 'nigra' dialect. People who live in the same area might tend to talk the same way, *I'm a smarmy asshole*? And I COULD be their target market if they cleaned up their act.

It's normal to try to mentally reject things that challenge social norms, but that shouldn't stop you thinking about what is happening. This is particularly alarming becuase as a conservative, you probably agree with the whole 'less corporate welfare plz' thing. You're just scared to agree with anything that has been 'othered'.

Some of the OWS individual comments make sense, and mirror the Tea Party protestors. I wouldn't mind seeing guilty parties on Wall Street in jail, if the associated guilty parties in the US Capitol ALSO went to jail. The OWS folks' ire seems to be focused on the 'capitalist' side of the problem, not the 'crony' side. That sticks in my craw. And as foreign as this may seem to members like the esteemed Shroom, comportment matters. As long as the OWS protesters allow themselves to be characterized by the druggies, thugs, and utopians, as long as they refuse to contract for proper security to protect their members and have enough Port-A-Potties (need I remind you that OWS NY alone has $500k in donations?), then they look like ineffectual buffoons. My disdain for the movement has nothing to do with fear of the "other."

[Stark]

You're the one defining the validity of a political movement based on whether you personally like it. Who's the real troll? Why is the importance or validity (unrelated concepts) related to toilets? Is this a mental link for you?

It's amusing, in this context, that even tea party peole considers the OWS thing more valid than you do. Of course, you're open-minded. Is the characterisation of protesters innate, or is it driven by the media and feeding into expectations?

I am quite fascinated by the mental gymnastics people will engage in to hate a group that they agree with, just because they offend their own self image. Said something bad about capitalists, those they see as causing and benefitting from a disaster? HIPPIES!

[Terralthra]

Some of the OWS individual comments make sense, and mirror the Tea Party protestors. I wouldn't mind seeing guilty parties on Wall Street in jail, if the associated guilty parties in the US Capitol ALSO went to jail. The OWS folks' ire seems to be focused on the 'capitalist' side of the problem, not the 'crony' side. That sticks in my craw. And as foreign as this may seem to members like the esteemed Shroom, comportment matters. As long as the OWS protesters allow themselves to be characterized by the druggies, thugs, and utopians, as long as they refuse to contract for proper security to protect their members and have enough Port-A-Potties (need I remind you that OWS NY alone has $500k in donations?), then they look like ineffectual buffoons. My disdain for the movement has nothing to do with fear of the "other."

Like these? At least it's obvious to everyone else that you are massively underinformed.

[SirNitram]

Alright, before this becomes even more of a farce. Start backing up claims or sit down. This includes, for example, Chocula establishing a logical or factual basis for a need of a single coherent message and leader.

[Losonti Tokash]

Regarding portable toilets: we've been in discussion with Parks and Rec on the concept. They were all for it and helped find us a good deal. We start to go through with the process and the police say no. There's no regulation or anything prohibiting it, they just said we can't. A local 24h gas station supports us and lets us use their bathrooms, but the police are putting pressure on them to deny us access.

PS, as to our targets, it should be plainly obvious we are opposed to both unethical business AND government practices. They're so intertwined as to be practically indistinguishable, but there you go. It's also worth noting that both Emmanuel and Obama were mic checked recently, not just Republicans.

[Stark]

When he suggested contracting security, I was immediately wondering if the cops would let them actually hire soldiers like that. If they won't let them have toilets - in another obvious attempt to get them to give up - then is becomes less about dirty hippies and more about people living in shit becuase the government is repressing them.

[Terralthra]

On that note, Obama got mic-checked in New Hampshire:


Interesting that unlike many other mic-checks, much of the crowd tried to shout down the Occupy group. Obama hushed the people who were chanting for him so he could say something directly to Occupy on a conciliatory note, unlike, for example, Karl Rove:

On Monday night, Karl Rove got into a wee bit of awkwardness. During his planned remarks at the Milton S. Eisenhower Symposium at Johns Hopkins University, members of the local Occupy Baltimore demonstration interrupted him by calling for a "mic check." Here's Zaid Jelani, at ThinkProgress, describing the encounter:

"Karl Rove is the architect of Occupy Iraq, the architect of Occupy Afghanistan!" yelled the demonstrators. Occupy Baltimore had infiltrated the crowd and began chanting against Rove. "Who gave you the right to occupy America?" asked Rove to the protesters, apparently unaware of the Bill of Rights. As they repeated their slogan, "We are the 99 percent!" Rove petulantly responded, "No you're not!" He snidely added, "You wanna keep jumping up and yelling that you're the 99 percent? How presumptuous and arrogant can you think are!"

Here's the video, which makes it seem like Rove might have just bored everyone to death had Occupy Baltimore not intervened to enliven the proceedings.

The interruption didn't go over well with the rest of the members of the audience, who applauded when Rove chastised them to wait until the question-and-answer session to ask about his role in shaping the unsuccessful, debt-driving foreign entanglements that helped mortgage everyone's future. Still, it's sort of strange to see the normally self-possessed Rove basically flip his wig like that, isn't it? I guess knowing you have to spend the next year of your life raising money to sell Mitt Romney to conservatives will do things to your temperament.

[Losonti Tokash]

We have a night watch which is just two volunteers who walk the grounds at night. The police don't respond if we call 911 so we're on our own.