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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Keep it as it is - except dicks like Shep get to play factions that aren't superpowers, but still psychopathic maniacs! BLAND! BLAND! BLAND!

I'm not a dick; I'm just nukesexual.

MKSheppard wrote:

Zor wrote:Also, if we do restart it, i am lowering Imperium Requirements to 12,500+, Supermods and administrators to prevent UAR 2.0 from happening.

If you do that, we got to cluster imperiums together on land masses; to force them to spend money on land armies to deter the other imperiums; otherwise you'll have an Imperium overwhelming the other small countries on the land mass with sheer manpower...

And that I agree with Shep. As it is, the main problem is that countries are forced to build mostly SAMs, Bombers and navy units. Nothing more. Forcing them to diversify resources makes it difficult for anyone to dominate others.

Oh yeah...

Man, I think this jovial OOC conversation we're having after the nuclear holocaust is awesome. I think Shep ejaculating atomic annihilation upon us, and Stas returning the favor by RAEPing Shepnukistan with a cobalt cock, is like an awesome release of pent up emotions and frustrations, of desires finally being realized, of inhibitions being let go!

LET OFF SOME STEAM, BENNETT!

For MacMillian, etc, FUCK-UP, et al I move we make Shroomy an Imperium in Game v2.

What do you mean "force the Imperiums to build land forces"?

If they spam thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons, land forces won't matter much in this new setup, either

PeZook wrote:What do you mean "force the Imperiums to build land forces"?

If they spam thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons, land forces won't matter much in this new setup, either

No one is going to stop them from engaging in nuclear incest, to be certain.

BTW, if we restart it, I fully intend to have Selene start from numer 3 or 4

Because, fuck. I should get something in exchange for crunching numbers and planning flights and figuring out shipbuilding for everybody

PeZook wrote:If they spam thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons, land forces won't matter much in this new setup, either

That's lots of nuclear weapons that have to be diverted to nuke field armies, which are really remarkably hard to kill.

At one end of the scale, the army's Lieutenant General James M. Gavin, deputy chief of staff for research and development, under General Maxwell Taylor, told the JCAE in 1956 and 1957 that the total requirement for the army alone would be 151,000 nuclear weapons: 106,000 for tactical battlefield use, 25,000 for air defense, and 20,000 for support of our allies. Gavin estimated that a typical field army might use a total of 423 atomic warheads in one day of intense combat, not including surface-to-air weapons.

If you're going to scale the Imperiums down, I'd say you could scale Duchies and probably Principalities up some as well.

As it is, a Duchy is pretty much irrelevent to, well, anything. Even with a bunch of them in an alliance they still barely amounted to anything.

Perhaps a bit more even distrubution of power or something?

Although personally I don't want to see us crawl up the ladder to Global Thermonuclear War again. We've been there and done that, so maybe we should figure on a scenario where it doesn't have to end up like that.

The main reason the MESS was so overpowering conventionally is because we were a bunch of Tsardoms. Groups of Duchies with a few Princips, Kingdoms, and a couple Tsardoms wouldn't really match.

If we were a bit more balanced throughout there could still be superpowers, but it wouldn't need to be so one-sided that the only alternative is Full Nuclear War.

It's also why I'd like more Terra Libertias in the new world. Give those who like the military conflict something to do (although it'd be such that you can't really take them over without bankrupting yourself, and mass slaughter won't go over well with the world) while giving us "nation builders" the chance to do our own thing.

Basically give us a choice to get involved or not, without one conflict spiraling into a global affair because really, there was nowhere else for it to go.

Was there a reason why they needed so many?

MKSheppard wrote:

PeZook wrote:If they spam thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons, land forces won't matter much in this new setup, either

That's lots of nuclear weapons that have to be diverted to nuke field armies, which are really remarkably hard to kill.

At one end of the scale, the army's Lieutenant General James M. Gavin, deputy chief of staff for research and development, under General Maxwell Taylor, told the JCAE in 1956 and 1957 that the total requirement for the army alone would be 151,000 nuclear weapons: 106,000 for tactical battlefield use, 25,000 for air defense, and 20,000 for support of our allies. Gavin estimated that a typical field army might use a total of 423 atomic warheads in one day of intense combat, not including surface-to-air weapons.

You should do something so they can't just band together though. Otherwise it'd be a repeat of the UAR.

I don't want to be an Imperium... but as a single unified entity, the FUN itself outstrips any single Imperium in sheer might of resources. So, I think that would be better. I mean, hey, that's why I worked on being such a friendly dork and getting everyone - even whacky Shady - to get along and such!

So, I guess we could keep the FUN and use a bunch of those NPC and dispossessed nations as resources - and CUSTOMERS!

RogueIce wrote:You should do something so they can't just band together though. Otherwise it'd be a repeat of the UAR.

Then put me next door to the Lone Star Republic in the Reboot.

Personally, Kingdoms don't do swat much. I'm probably one of the few kingdoms that actually do something on the world stage. All the Tsardoms just makes most kingdoms irrelevant.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Personally, Kingdoms don't do swat much. I'm probably one of the few kingdoms that actually do something on the world stage. All the Tsardoms just makes most kingdoms irrelevant.

A Kingdom is just about the first stage where you can do something significant, except for outliers like Indophal. If you're a Duchy or Principality, you're pretty much doomed to weaseling around with diplomacy, and not everybody is comfortable with that.

PeZook wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Personally, Kingdoms don't do swat much. I'm probably one of the few kingdoms that actually do something on the world stage. All the Tsardoms just makes most kingdoms irrelevant.

A Kingdom is just about the first stage where you can do something significant, except for outliers like Indophal. If you're a Duchy or Principality, you're pretty much doomed to weaseling around with diplomacy, and not everybody is comfortable with that.

True. It's the first nation that can defend themselves against a significant conventional attack.

But budgets are so restrictive the Tsardoms just pull far and away. Don't forget that intervening in conflicts is pretty hard.

The Duchies are... well, ungood for players. Langley, Vohu, Raj, WesFox and Shady can't do much aside from making themselves notable by having crazy killer anime chicks, or PMCs, or beaches man (beaches), or periodically sending assassins to kill me.

PeZook wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Personally, Kingdoms don't do swat much. I'm probably one of the few kingdoms that actually do something on the world stage. All the Tsardoms just makes most kingdoms irrelevant.

A Kingdom is just about the first stage where you can do something significant, except for outliers like Indophal. If you're a Duchy or Principality, you're pretty much doomed to weaseling around with diplomacy, and not everybody is comfortable with that.

We could make Kingdom a minimum level. Maybe balance it a bit by making people not ordinarily rating a Kingdom stuck with the mandatory 2nd world population? They could still do something on the world stage, but they'd have to concentrate on the home front, too.

MKSheppard wrote:Then put me next door to the Lone Star Republic in the Reboot.

I'd actually say two of the Tsardoms that are together. They're still a little under your base GDP but it's pretty damn close to being equal so neither side would be able to start a large war with impunity.

Although I suppose one Tsardom can do that to an Imperium with backup from allied Tsardoms. Those better with the scale confirm or deny that?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:True. It's the first nation that can defend themselves against a significant conventional attack.

But budgets are so restrictive the Tsardoms just pull far and away. Don't forget that intervening in conflicts is pretty hard.

Even Imperiums on their own are pretty restricted in that regard, although they do get more options.

Nobody can really be a world power on their own, thus making the alliances pretty much inevitable. But at least as a Kingdom you can solidly contribute to an allied effort. Duchies and Principalities are more of a drain than a real help, since they basically depend on the larger powers for protection, and their contributions to allied projects would be tiny in comparison.

Well, I guess we've had a good run. I will actually be able to start working now

But I messed up my Orbiter installation to run simulations for the Selene program! Thanks, Shep. Now I will have to dig around a hundred CDs to find the backup

EDIT: On Allied contributions, it's not that bad. PeZookia could pretty comfortably afford to spend 500 mil/year for Selene, for example. It was the ONLY significant project like that, though

Hmm.. Perhaps making the baseline a kingdom, with the post count determining second or first world. Pass a threshold, we have tsardoms and after another, an Imperium? We better lower the threshold for an Imperium though. Otherwise, it won't make much of a difference.

Actually, scratch what I said earlier. Two Kingdoms basically match a Tsardom, so having a gaggle of them would unbalance things.

GDP-wise, two Kingdoms = Tsardom and two Tsardoms = Imperium. Meanwhile, a Kingdom is about six times the Principality in GDP terms.

If you made Principalities a straight half Kingdom (187.5bil) and Duchies a half Principality (93.75bil) it might make things a bit better for them. Same with initial military loadout and possibly land size (don't feel like crunching those numbers.

Even then a Duchy is still a bit on the low side, but they'd still be better off than a Principality in the old system.

EDIT: Land area was worse! Kingdom = seven times (and some change) the land area of a Principality!

Way better off ; In fact, with 97 billion, a principality has parity with some of the small Earth countries, and can actually contribute significantly to any endeavour.

Two tsardoms = 1 imperium, by their combined GDPs.

Anyway, as for militaries, it's obscene. How does Wilkonia get a half dozen aircraft carriers? I mean... fucking New Zealand has a GDP bigger than any Tsardom. Hell, New Zealand makes for a pretty good match for an Imperium - for that matter.

Tsardoms have 400,000 men in their military. That's obscene, our economies can't handle THAT.

The sheer amount of militarism in SDN World is mad. Unless Q pitches in for our Runaway Defense Budgets.

Poland is about the size and strenght of a Tsardom, with 100 billion less GDP and 8 million more people, and we can barely support an army 120 thousand strong. Spending cash on supporting 20 Burkes and 60 frigates would simply bankrupt us