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By the way, this is exactly what Saddam did with some high profile defectors, and to a lesser extent what the Soviets did with Viktor Belenko and Alexander Zuyev.

THey made tapes of family members pleading for them to come back, et al. and then had them passed through to the defectors.

Stas I think I'm going to go with you for my long range aircraft needs. I plan on purchasing 26Tu-22M3 in order to form two squadron's of 12 with 4 for training and backups. I also intend to spend around $5 million each upgrading the electronics.

Shepnukistan is too much in the news right now for a big arms deal I'm afraid.

Except who's to say he has a family? Odds are that a man willing to defect might not have an immediate family to be so easily detained. Dead parents, never married because he was dedicated to the service, etc.

Well, except you declared so to be a powergaming dick. "HAHAHAHA! IF HE DOESN'T RETURN HE IS CORRUPT AND UNTRUSTWORTHY!"

Steve wrote:Except who's to say he has a family?

Yes, because a 40-50 year old man in a relatively high position is going to be unmarried. And even if he doesn't have a direct family, we have other relatives, like brothers, sisters, parents, etc that we can detain...

Well, except you declared so to be a powergaming dick. "HAHAHAHA! IF HE DOESN'T RETURN HE IS CORRUPT AND UNTRUSTWORTHY!"

That's the whole goddamn point Steve. One of my late friends, and the guy who got me out of Jail in the first place was a honest to god actual case officer in the CIA, and he told me all kinds of stories about the defectors he had to deal with in his official capacity.

In his words, people do not betray their country for highfaluting ideals. They do it because they're utter scumbags.

He never tired of telling me the story of how he had to debrief an Iraqi defector that they got out of Saddam Fun Land (TM). One of the preconditions that the defector had was that the CIA would have to get his family out of Saddam Fun Land (TM). All good and okay?

Except that the guy had TWO families, TWO wives, TWO sets of kids and TWO houses. He would move from family #1 to family #2 every couple of days ("I got a business trip coming up honey").

So of course, the CIA got both sets out; and they met for the first time in an airport lobby after being lifted from Saddam Fun Land

PeZook wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:

PeZook wrote:Ah! So that's the "???" island? :D

Awright. Who else is on the map, then?

'Coz if I'm done adding everybody, then it's just a question of doing a blowup of the Border States and we're basically done.

Will you be moving Zoria and Serenity, the two sore-thumbs, into the location I suggested? Or is that not kosher with Marina?

I don't know. Marina? :D

They're staying where they are, I don't want anyone close to the Untamed Continent.

Did you ask Beo if he'd be okay with giving the defector a family? There are loners in this world who, due to accident or simply luck, have no real immediate family left. Dead parents, maybe a sibling or two who may have died of sickness or accident (or given his age, a casualty in the last OD-Shep war?), never married because he commited himself to his career and got his jollies with local prostitutes.

I'll back off on this if you asked Beo for permission for that. But if you didn't, no matter how realistic it is, you basically declared facts on a character to justify what came off to me as a demand that his value be diminished or completely removed if he didn't return home on the grounds of "Well, he's corrupt and untrustworthy, nothing he says can be of real value now!".

Steve wrote:But if you didn't, no matter how realistic it is, you basically declared facts on a character to justify what came off to me as a demand that his value be diminished or completely removed if he didn't return home on the grounds of "Well, he's corrupt and untrustworthy, nothing he says can be of real value now!".

So you're against me employing a standard tactic of ruthless dictatorships all across the world on high value defectors?

Secondly, that is exactly the problem that real world intelligence agencies face with defectors. If someone is willing to betray his country; how can you trust anything he says? He can always inflate his own value by making shit up, among other things.

Which is why anything a defector says has to be cross referenced extensively to be validated.

MKSheppard wrote:

Steve wrote:But if you didn't, no matter how realistic it is, you basically declared facts on a character to justify what came off to me as a demand that his value be diminished or completely removed if he didn't return home on the grounds of "Well, he's corrupt and untrustworthy, nothing he says can be of real value now!".

So you're against me employing a standard tactic of ruthless dictatorships all across the world on high value defectors?

No, I'm against you using it as a tool for playing trump card escalation with Beo and the others.

If you went to them -which I guess you didn't - and said "Hey, can I give this guy a family that will be imprisoned and killed if he doesn't return" and they said "sure" - fine. If you didn't, well, that's where I have a bit of a problem.

I'm with Steve here, Shep. Unless you had Beowulf's permission to do this, I'm going to call it simple "I WIN LOL!" one-upmanship.

I know this because I did something very similar myself in the last game.

Steve wrote:No, I'm against you using it as a tool for playing trump card escalation with Beo and the others.

Actually, Beowulf was in contact with me and tells me about the defectors, and I go, hum okay?

Realistically, if it was just a nobody, the janitor who cleans the toilets in the secure area, nothing would've happened. But a major high profile defection like this will prompt active measures by ANY dictatorship.

Secondly, as Frigidmagi has pointed out; lone men who have no families, AND know secrets usually do not get to leave the country if they work for a dictatorship.

It won't be the fucking first time Shep pulled shit like this. Task Force 23, anyone?

So I just dropped 5 tons of BZ psycoactive incapacitating gas onto the Cascadia paratroopers… BZ being colorless, odorless and virtually undetectable by anything but laboratory testing they aren’t going to know what hit them for a while… but we’ll be needing a moderator ruling on the full effects of the weapon. Mainly… just how many of them men start hallucinating and take of all their cloths to wander into the jungle.

Sea Skimmer wrote:So I just dropped 5 tons of BZ psycoactive incapacitating gas onto the Cascadia paratroopers… BZ being colorless, odorless and virtually undetectable by anything but laboratory testing they aren’t going to know what hit them for a while… but we’ll be needing a moderator ruling on the full effects of the weapon. Mainly… just how many of them men start hallucinating and take of all their cloths to wander into the jungle.

Maybe if there were any paratroopers there yet that attack would've been pretty effective.

Actually, to further clarify, I figured my initial post made it pretty clear that the airborne is only going to arrive after the Marines make the initial landing. With one of my CV/LHD joint groups right there.

Oh shit, this is going to take forever to sort out.

Steve wrote: Maybe if there were any paratroopers there yet that attack would've been pretty effective.

The game runs at a month a real day and you first made mention of a landing in reply to Japanistans landing two days ago, how damn long are your paratroopers supposed to take to fly in? They could have made the trip by sea in an 18 knot freighter by now! So sorry I assumed you had a remotely competent military, if you want we can wait another whole month and I'll gas them then anyway so your forces could not reasonably anticipate such an attack. BZ after all doesn’t have any real tactical military purpose because it is unpredictable… someone people just get tired, others get twelve hours of visual hallucinations but as a weapon to spread confusion and terror its works great.

Some jungle fever your boys are going to get.

Sea Skimmer wrote: The game runs at a month a day and you first fucking made mention of a landing in reply to Japanistans landing two days ago, how damn long are your paratroopers supposed to take to fly in? They could have made the trip by sea in an 18 knot freighter by now.

I thought it was a year a month?

Okay, it appears that Steve's right--Skimmer, the action is voided because there was nobody there yet, not because it wouldn't succeed.

Arik does have paratroopers there but they're in another place as best I can tell, not to your north but to your south, 6km above the failed state of al-Akharabat.

Karmic Knight wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote: The game runs at a month a day and you first fucking made mention of a landing in reply to Japanistans landing two days ago, how damn long are your paratroopers supposed to take to fly in? They could have made the trip by sea in an 18 knot freighter by now.

I thought it was a year a month?

That is also what the moderator thought.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Steve wrote: Maybe if there were any paratroopers there yet that attack would've been pretty effective.

The game runs at a month a real day and you first made mention of a landing in reply to Japanistans landing two days ago, how damn long are your paratroopers supposed to take to fly in? They could have made the trip by sea in an 18 knot freighter by now! So sorry I assumed you had a remotely competent military, if you want we can wait another whole month and I'll gas them then anyway so your forces could not reasonably anticipate such an attack. BZ after all doesn’t have any real tactical military purpose because it is unpredictable… someone people just get tired, others get twelve hours of visual hallucinations but as a weapon to spread confusion and terror its works great.

Some jungle fever your boys are going to get.

Except you seem to have forgotten to read the actual posts, my first post had the airborne set to come in to support a Marine landing after it was already commenced.

IOW, your transports will be moving into an area guarded by a defensive CAP from my carrier.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I thought it was a year a month?

That is also what the moderator thought.[/quote]

The last game was a month to a day, and that’s the only thing I ever heard on this one. Anyway even if it is one year to a month, that still means over a month has elapsed in game which is STILL long enough for an 18 knot freighter to make the trip and have a several day margin of time for loading and unloading at each end.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I thought it was a year a month?

That is also what the moderator thought.

The last game was a month to a day, and that’s the only thing I ever heard on this one. Anyway even if it is one year to a month, that still means over a month has elapsed in game which is STILL long enough for an 18 knot freighter to make the trip and have a several day margin of time for loading and unloading at each end.[/quote]

The time scale was reduced for this game. You're right, but they're probably dicking around with supply preparations and stuff, or whatever. We can't force Steve to land before he's ready, even if we have to ascribe sundry reasons to why he plausibly hasn't yet.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The last game was a month to a day, and that’s the only thing I ever heard on this one. Anyway even if it is one year to a month, that still means over a month has elapsed in game which is STILL long enough for an 18 knot freighter to make the trip and have a several day margin of time for loading and unloading at each end.

That assumes they left right then and there. This is a fairly long-range operation with multiple units across multiple services moving in something like coordination, and then of course they'll need to be supported when they get there.

Which is a pretty big undertaking for a Kingdom-sized nation which probably hasn't done anything like this since WWII (and there they probably had logistical and other support from the MESS). It's not surprising they'd probably experience any number of delays.

EDIT:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The time scale was reduced for this game. You're right, but they're probably dicking around with supply preparations and stuff, or whatever. We can't force Steve to land before he's ready, even if we have to ascribe sundry reasons to why he plausibly hasn't yet.

In other words, what she said.

I'm sorry that I was busy doing things like reading the map and the bottom scale for 5000km and then checking aircraft range and having to know where I'd need refuelers positioned, as well as verifying Yenchin would be okay with me using Ketagaran AFB (though that changed from landing the transports there for refueling to temporarily landing my refuelers there to do the mid-air refueling of the transports in a more timely manner).

Steve wrote: IOW, your transports will be moving into an area guarded by a defensive CAP from my carrier.

Hardly matters, E-2 Hawkeye radar isn’t going to detect slow moving targets in heavy ground clutter (Isreal and Singapore have both complained heavily about this, and are planning on buying alternative platforms), and X-band SPY-1 with AEGIS doesn’t work in combination with land clutter either… thus the demand for a duel band radar on DDG-1000, not to mention a second downward looking only SAR radar on the E10 replacement for the E-3. The USN plan mainly though is just to stand off 200 miles and force the enemy to come fly out over the water.

Normally though this isn’t a major problem, because few fast jet aircraft can actually fly nap of the earth, and they move faster and have much higher radar returns in general, but a biplane cruising at highway speeds sure can. The only real defence against the An-2 is flak batteries, and helicopter gunships. No fighter built since WW2 can fly slow enough to engage the thing.

Steve wrote:I'm sorry that I was busy doing things like reading the map and the bottom scale for 5000km and then checking aircraft range and having to know where I'd need refuelers positioned, as well as verifying Yenchin would be okay with me using Ketagaran AFB (though that changed from landing the transports there for refueling to temporarily landing my refuelers there to do the mid-air refueling of the transports in a more timely manner).

That bottom line is 500km, not 5000km....