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Did we just get a cameo appearance from The Seer? I'm also curious to see how the second conspiracy plays out.

I'm confused as to who the "targeteer" is.

My list of protagonists has now expanded to encompass Uriel and Lemuel. I really hope you can work in some great detective-story feel into that plot.

Hawkwings wrote:I'm confused as to who the "targeteer" is.

My list of protagonists has now expanded to encompass Uriel and Lemuel. I really hope you can work in some great detective-story feel into that plot.

The Targeteer is Stuart

There's something else here people, and we're missing it."

Why is there a difference between the two? Damn it, I should be able to figure this out.

Hawkwings wrote:I'm confused as to who the "targeteer" is.

Stuart's character. The Targeteer was the one who explained to Abigor what humanity might do to Dis back in Armageddon.

Why should it be obvious Sam? He's doing a fine job of teasing us

Quick question regarding Angel types.

Angels, Ishim, Elohim, Malachim, even Seraphim and one Hashmallim involved.

Most of the words here have distinct meanings in hebrew (even old Hebrew) which do not exactly fit as angel types. For example, Ishim is people, Malachim is simply "angels". What gives? Is this some characteristic of names in the New Testament?

Ace Pace wrote:Quick question regarding Angel types.

Angels, Ishim, Elohim, Malachim, even Seraphim and one Hashmallim involved.

Most of the words here have distinct meanings in hebrew (even old Hebrew) which do not exactly fit as angel types. For example, Ishim is people, Malachim is simply "angels". What gives? Is this some characteristic of names in the New Testament?

During the middle ages, the church drammatically expanded its' pantheon of angels and drew on Judaic and other sources for inspiration. 'Ishim' is derived from the description of the angels given in Ezikiel 23, and have been declared to be the heralds of snow and fire.

Elohim are the messengers of God, bringing divine messages, while Malachim were lords of virtue or specific powers.

It is definitely NOT new testament, but rather very specific derivations of power stemming from the very broad, vague descriptions present in both the old and new testaments, by church schollars.

I wonder what the best way to rob Fort Knox is? IIRC it was the water supply that was tampered with in the novel.

The targeteer thought for a second. "I wonder if there's an eccentric old lady in El Paso who put a tinfoil hat on her much-beloved little dog? And, if there is, I bet that dog is still alive."

I'm sure I would put a tinfoil hat on our cat.

JN1 wrote:

The targeteer thought for a second. "I wonder if there's an eccentric old lady in El Paso who put a tinfoil hat on her much-beloved little dog? And, if there is, I bet that dog is still alive."

I'm sure I would put a tinfoil hat on our cat.

Strays wouldn't have hats on them (or keep them on, for that matter), and it didn't exactly occur to most people that the EMP that baldricks use to influence people would also work on animals. Also, wouldn't the foiled houses give at least some protection to animals living in them? Surely when Surlethe said that every animal died, he was talking about the ones outside the protective buildings? And if they died inside the buildings, why didn't the building protect them, but kept safe the human residents, who wouldn't have the caps on all the time anyway?

Forgive me if I'm committing some grievous physics error here, but perhaps proximity to your tinfoil protection would have something to do with how protective it is?

Stuart wrote:DIMO(N) Conference Room, The Pentagon, May 2009
Looking at his chart, Lemuel-Lan-Michael found his eyes drawn to the small number of names on Ishmael's list that were not linked to the conspiracy he had uncovered.

Is this suppose to imply that those small number of names are in Michael's original conspiracy group?
If so, then Ishmael is connected to both conspiracy groups. That raises the possibility of there being more linkages between the two conspiracies. Is anyone else in the second conspiracy aware of Michael's plot? Could we see a little blackmail maybe?

Eulogy wrote:Strays wouldn't have hats on them (or keep them on, for that matter), and it didn't exactly occur to most people that the EMP that baldricks use to influence people would also work on animals. Also, wouldn't the foiled houses give at least some protection to animals living in them? Surely when Surlethe said that every animal died, he was talking about the ones outside the protective buildings? And if they died inside the buildings, why didn't the building protect them, but kept safe the human residents, who wouldn't have the caps on all the time anyway?

There might be something going on here besides simple shielding vs Uriel's mind powers. What if it has to do with education? Rational thought is a uniquely human invention. Humans possess this ability, but animals simply do not. What's more, it is a product of human civilization not genetics. In other words, it is taught, not inherited. What if those who have a greater capacity for rational thought are more resistant to the effect? As you move into first-world nations, you run into areas where nearly 100% of the population has received years of formal schooling.

Darth Wong wrote:There might be something going on here besides simple shielding vs Uriel's mind powers. What if it has to do with education? Rational thought is a uniquely human invention. Humans possess this ability, but animals simply do not. What's more, it is a product of human civilization not genetics. In other words, it is taught, not inherited. What if those who have a greater capacity for rational thought are more resistant to the effect? As you move into first-world nations, you run into areas where nearly 100% of the population has received years of formal schooling.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Perhaps the effect has something to do with images or thoughts being projected into the mind of the victim. Someone with the ability to think rationally may be more likely to be able to overcome the effect. That may be why Uriel speaks of different levels of resistance. Additionally, this mechanism neatly explains all of the data points including the crazy old rich conspiracy theorist who died.

Darth Wong wrote:There might be something going on here besides simple shielding vs Uriel's mind powers. What if it has to do with education? Rational thought is a uniquely human invention. Humans possess this ability, but animals simply do not. What's more, it is a product of human civilization not genetics. In other words, it is taught, not inherited. What if those who have a greater capacity for rational thought are more resistant to the effect? As you move into first-world nations, you run into areas where nearly 100% of the population has received years of formal schooling.

That's a very interesting idea.

Interesting to see that there's a second conspiracy. I sort of ignored Occam's Razor by assuming that some humans had managed to open a portal into heaven with the Big 15 as a whole being any wiser.

Where is Belial anyways? I'm sort of missing the old coot.

Well, I might offer a second thought in this vein: The low-hanging fruit has already been killed off. Lots of the people who were susceptible to divine "die now" commands died from the Message (which took a decent number of people with it, after all). Thus, kill orders that should be netting 5-15% are only getting 1% or less.

In this vein, I would be interested to see if there were any effects in that regard with the Message. My inclination is that there would be at least some effects in that regard (the rational thought thing; I recall some religious group or another wasn't affected by the Message because of rational thought and analysis of what came from the message).

I would also be interested, in keeping with this, to see if there is an increased effect w.r.t. infant mortality and/or effects on children. Under that umbrella, did the Message have any increased impact among those under some age line (say, under age 5, 7, or 10) where rational thought isn't nearly as well-developed (and where belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is quite pervasive)?

Pelranius wrote:Interesting to see that there's a second conspiracy. I sort of ignored Occam's Razor by assuming that some humans had managed to open a portal into heaven with the Big 15 as a whole being any wiser.

Where is Belial anyways? I'm sort of missing the old coot.

Good question. I'm wondering that, too, if just because of his knowledge of weapons and whatnot. If Heaven gets seven years to play with, I could see them at least being able to hold their own against an invasion for a while.

Another question: Does "lan" (or "Ian") in the names of the angels translate as "servant of"? Or is it something else ("son of", perhaps)?

Or a bastardization of clan?

I'm afraid that Lemuel's a little too effective for his own good and will suffer an "unfortunate accident" in the future.

iborg wrote:I'm afraid that Lemuel's a little too effective for his own good and will suffer an "unfortunate accident" in the future.

It depends. There appears to be a revolution of the proletariat on the horizon and Michael might be too busy to decide wheter or not to join the forces of reaction than to kill of Lemuel. Not to mention that Lemuel might start getting a little paranoid and take steps to prevent any assassians from getting to him. Since he knows that the humans have hell and demons can shape-change he won't be entirely unprepared.

Darth Wong wrote:There might be something going on here besides simple shielding vs Uriel's mind powers. What if it has to do with education? Rational thought is a uniquely human invention. Humans possess this ability, but animals simply do not. What's more, it is a product of human civilization not genetics. In other words, it is taught, not inherited. What if those who have a greater capacity for rational thought are more resistant to the effect? As you move into first-world nations, you run into areas where nearly 100% of the population has received years of formal schooling.

Good point.

I'd chalk it up to a mix of that, EM interference, and sheer numbers. Uriel's got to have more trouble sending a death signal to a million people in El Paso than he would sending it to a thousand people in an African village. Not only are the numbers and area of effect greater, but he's got to drill through shielding and RF static in the frequencies that his "magic" operates on.

I don't know how big a factor the rational "no, I will not lie down and die, go away" response is, but I agree it has to be part of what's going on. I suspect that if Uriel concentrated he could punch through that when targeting a single person or small group, but that over wide areas it makes the rational thinkers to difficult too kill en masse.

GrayAnderson wrote:Well, I might offer a second thought in this vein: The low-hanging fruit has already been killed off. Lots of the people who were susceptible to divine "die now" commands died from the Message (which took a decent number of people with it, after all). Thus, kill orders that should be netting 5-15% are only getting 1% or less.

In this vein, I would be interested to see if there were any effects in that regard with the Message. My inclination is that there would be at least some effects in that regard (the rational thought thing; I recall some religious group or another wasn't affected by the Message because of rational thought and analysis of what came from the message).

I would also be interested, in keeping with this, to see if there is an increased effect w.r.t. infant mortality and/or effects on children. Under that umbrella, did the Message have any increased impact among those under some age line (say, under age 5, 7, or 10) where rational thought isn't nearly as well-developed (and where belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is quite pervasive)?

Was that religious group some sort of Confucianist sect? I think it was mentioned that Asians percentage wise had a smaller die off (though there are obvious candidates for sudden extinction level events like the Moonies and Falungong) and one of the characters speculated that Asians might be genetically less inclined to be religious.

Pelranius wrote: Was that religious group some sort of Confucianist sect? I think it was mentioned that Asians percentage wise had a smaller die off (though there are obvious candidates for sudden extinction level events like the Moonies and Falungong) and one of the characters speculated that Asians might be genetically less inclined to be religious.

Trust me, the continent of Asia has had plenty of religious madness. Leaving out the technicalities (the holy land is part of Asia), you have had strife in Japan with the monastaries, religious revolts in China, the caste system in India... I think the character did not do their homework.

I don't recall any speculation that Asians are genetically inclined to be less religious, though it's been a long time since I read Armageddon in full. If Asia had less die-off it's obviously because so many fewer Asians believe in Abrahamic religions than Westerners and Middle Easterners. The religious sect was Quakers, though, mentioned to be helping out in Hell recovering victims to remain true to their pacifist principles.

Ah, dear. Shroom is gonna want to bear your babies (ar as close as he can get to doing so) after the first part of this installment. He is gonna love that he was dead on about Luga seducing the Paschal (who'll probably never live it down from the reactions of his colleagues).

And I wonder just how sophisticated and deeply-entrenched this other angelic conspiracy is. If anything, Michael's little power play just got a whole lot more complicated. I also wonder, as was previously stated, about Belial. Just what has that nasty little bugger been up to in Heaven all this time?

MarshalPurnell wrote:I don't recall any speculation that Asians are genetically inclined to be less religious, though it's been a long time since I read Armageddon in full. If Asia had less die-off it's obviously because so many fewer Asians believe in Abrahamic religions than Westerners and Middle Easterners. The religious sect was Quakers, though, mentioned to be helping out in Hell recovering victims to remain true to their pacifist principles.

Which makes me wonder how much of the Philippine population just laid down and died in the world of The Salvation War. There are a lot of Catholic fundies in the Philippines, especially among the poor majority and most of the middle class, and several belong to other Christian sects and local Catholic off-shoots tend to be even more extreme in their beliefs. At least, in my experience. I wonder if the TSW-verse Philippines just reeled from a tremendous die-off.