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Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Hmm, no hit-and-run anti-flagship maneuvers? Oh well. At least I can still use it to smash a mega-city and its shield into superheated vapour...

Sure, but that's often followed by a Bangbus™

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Hmm, no hit-and-run anti-flagship maneuvers?

No, because such is asshattery at its worst.

Rogue 9 wrote: No, because such is asshattery at its worst.

Plus nearly impossible. You'd be detected coming in, and would arrive to find aa fleet masked by ECM. How would you know which of the ships was the command ship?

HOLY MUTHERFUCKING SHIT! thats one helluva way to throw down a gauntlet Thirdfain... wow. Correct me if I'm wrong but did you just basically gave the UTC a ultimatum? give up hostilities or open war between the major and grand powers would erupt?

Also may I ask if it is too late for anyone to declare military support? I am willing to write up a Republican Resolution declaring war if one would ask of it. Then again the interests of the Thirteen are far from the South central bulk conflict, but I also have allies in this conflict. I would commision a Republican Task Force to aide those who asked.

Cabwi Desco wrote:HOLY MUTHERFUCKING SHIT! thats one helluva way to throw down a gauntlet Thirdfain... wow. Correct me if I'm wrong but did you just basically gave the UTC a ultimatum? give up hostilities or open war between the major and grand powers would erupt?

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War? I said nothing of the sort. The Three Suns Commonwealth is built upon 3 pillars- it's colonial empire, it's internal industry, and it's trade routes. There's no way it'd throw away one of those three pillars by open war with the QE, unless there were no other options.

This is an aim for a diplomatic solution- backed up with the support of enough nations to make even the QE look small.

Yes but if they don't back down and they call for a show of cards, how can you be sure your diplomatic alliance would come out on top?

And since I doubt that this will be the last conflict of the game I'm pretty sure a diplomatic solution might be a forlorn hope.

Hrm. Now, to find the right place to land a solid kick to knock these things down my preferred route...

Cabwi Desco wrote:Yes but if they don't back down and they call for a show of cards, how can you be sure your diplomatic alliance would come out on top?

And since I doubt that this will be the last conflict of the game I'm pretty sure a diplomatic solution might be a forlorn hope.

Oh, what gives you that idea? War between the ERTC and the QE would be like war between Europe and the USA (except with much tighter military parity.) In other words, economically a huge fucking mess and against both people's interests.

As for raw firepower, the undersigned nations drastically outgun the QE, but it's hardly a military alliance or a call for a coalition vs. the QE, it's just a bunch of nations agreeing that the UTR's making a very poor move.

SirNitram wrote:Hrm. Now, to find the right place to land a solid kick to knock these things down my preferred route...

Referring to the 3 pillars Thirdfain was referring to SirNitram?

Cabwi Desco wrote:

Referring to the 3 pillars Thirdfain was referring to SirNitram?[/quote]

I can only imagine how unpleasant it would get in the Magellanic Cloud if the Black Alliance made a large enough nuisance of itself to allow an ERTC resolution to be passed against it...

Thirdfain wrote:War? I said nothing of the sort. The Three Suns Commonwealth is built upon 3 pillars- it's colonial empire, it's internal industry, and it's trade routes. There's no way it'd throw away one of those three pillars by open war with the QE, unless there were no other options.

This is an aim for a diplomatic solution- backed up with the support of enough nations to make even the QE look small.

The QE has a few other advantages (operating on the defensive, fewer nations to coordinate, superior lines of communication on the hyperlanes, the TSC is separated by our territory from all it's allies). We could probably win if it came to a war--but it would be very costly for everybody, and who would that benefit?

Nobody.

Er, except Nitram.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:The QE has a few other advantages (operating on the defensive, fewer nations to coordinate, superior lines of communication on the hyperlanes, the TSC is separated by our territory from all it's allies). We could probably win if it came to a war--but it would be very costly for everybody, and who would that benefit?

Nobody.

Er, except Nitram.

Hrm, I wonder how fast I can reposition Psykers from the Stuart Corp? *grins*

War is great for business! My business!

Thirdfain wrote:Oh, what gives you that idea? War between the ERTC and the QE would be like war between Europe and the USA (except with much tighter military parity.) In other words, economically a huge fucking mess and against both people's interests.

As for raw firepower, the undersigned nations drastically outgun the QE, but it's hardly a military alliance or a call for a coalition vs. the QE, it's just a bunch of nations agreeing that the UTR's making a very poor move.

Right for once I can ACUTALLY explain my reasoning, theres a first.

You use USA and Europe as examples. and rightly so. But i do disagree with your reasoning as such. America could beat Europe ten times over but the thing that would stop them is MAD and the economic unrest (well i guess the economy wouldnt exist anymore). However if MAD wasnt Assured and it was only possible then we would have more of a WWII, everyone afraid of using their trump card until the final minute but a horrible and bloody conflict before hand. And also look at the histroical ramifications of such wars. WWI led to WWII almost directly. and WWII led to USSR and the Cold war, but look at europe now and see an Economic Powerhouse.

Now I see... The situations in Gorn, fenari, and Klingon territory are all somewhat like the korean and vietnam wars. Those wars will help decide who in this galaxy will have the real political and popular control and can get things done, where as the person who backed the wrong horse will end up as a joke and weaken untill they collapse. Remarkable.


Then Again this could all have no bearing or relevence whatsoever, that last bit was just AP Essay spitballing.

Cabwi Desco wrote: Right for once I can ACUTALLY explain my reasoning, theres a first.

You use USA and Europe as examples. and rightly so. But i do disagree with your reasoning as such. America could beat Europe ten times over but the thing that would stop them is MAD and the economic unrest (well i guess the economy wouldnt exist anymore). However if MAD wasnt Assured and it was only possible then we would have more of a WWII, everyone afraid of using their trump card until the final minute but a horrible and bloody conflict before hand. And also look at the histroical ramifications of such wars. WWI led to WWII almost directly. and WWII led to USSR and the Cold war, but look at europe now and see an Economic Powerhouse.

Now I see... The situations in Gorn, fenari, and Klingon territory are all somewhat like the korean and vietnam wars. Those wars will help decide who in this galaxy will have the real political and popular control and can get things done, where as the person who backed the wrong horse will end up as a joke and weaken untill they collapse. Remarkable.


Then Again this could all have no bearing or relevence whatsoever, that last bit was just AP Essay spitballing.

I think your assessment is incorrect.

How so thirdfain?

Don't get too excited Cabwi. All that's happening is the UTR is expanding along the precious conduits of commerce, and people just don't like traveling through warzones, y'know? It's bad for business.

Cabwi Desco wrote:<SNIP>Then Again....

There's no proxy war here. This a major chunk of the galaxy telling the UTR to stop fuscking around near the trade lanes. Civilized nations don't say "Stop it or I'll kill you". They like to talk and avoid war!

Cabwi Desco wrote:How so thirdfain?

Well, your logic is brutally flawed.

America could beat Europe ten times over but the thing that would stop them is MAD and the economic unrest

Already addressed- America and the EU are further apart than the QE and the Commonwealth's allies. The divide is much tighter, but the lack of WMDs in this situation means that massive destruction is unlikely.

The economic situation is much the same as between the US and Europe.

Now I see... The situations in Gorn, fenari, and Klingon territory are all somewhat like the korean and vietnam wars.

Bullshit. They are a point of contention, nothing more.

Those wars will help decide who in this galaxy will have the real political and popular control and can get things done, where as the person who backed the wrong horse will end up as a joke and weaken untill they collapse. Remarkable.

I was unaware Fenris was the axis upon which the Galaxy spun.

The outcome of this will touch one side or the other, but it'll hardly spell the demise of either faction (assuming it doesn't blossom into war.)

Thirdfain wrote:

Now I see... The situations in Gorn, fenari, and Klingon territory are all somewhat like the korean and vietnam wars.

Bullshit. They are a point of contention, nothing more.

Yes and I'm sure thats what people thought of Korea and Vietnam at the time as well. But what do I know, I was born in 1987.

Thirdfain wrote:

Those wars will help decide who in this galaxy will have the real political and popular control and can get things done, where as the person who backed the wrong horse will end up as a joke and weaken untill they collapse. Remarkable.

I was unaware Fenris was the axis upon which the Galaxy spun.

The outcome of this will touch one side or the other, but it'll hardly spell the demise of either faction (assuming it doesn't blossom into war.)

I never said JUST fenris, but yes I believe it will have impact.

They are just SYMBOLS. The side or set of powers who wins there will invariably have the controll over the system halting the advance of an incoming threat. then they can hold up said symbols as their points of rule.


Then again, ye who holds all the cards will be the first to lose them...

Cabwi Desco wrote: Yes and I'm sure thats what people thought of Korea and Vietnam at the time as well. But what do I know, I was born in 1987.

Wait a fucking minute. The US LOST Vietnam, and only took half of Korea. And which side collapsed in the end?

The US losing in Vietnam is open to debate. I say we left before losing at it. but we did score in Cuba by forcing the russians to retreat their ICBMS. And it was a Tie in Korea. So it was even. But in the end it was the economic isolation that crushed the USSR and most of communism.

And now look at today, the US makes most of the policies concerning the world, though not so much lately just because a good number are Anti-Government.

And you have yet to speak of my second point, even though they are connected.

Cabwi Desco wrote:The US losing in Vietnam is open to debate.

No it isn't. The US objective in Vietnam was to maintain the existence of a separate non-communist South Vietnam. The fact that we left before the NVA completely overran our erstwhile allies is meaningless.

Cabwi Desco wrote:The US losing in Vietnam is open to debate. I say we left before losing at it.

It was seen at home and abroad as defeat. And the communist armies MARCHED INTO SAIGON.

But in the end it was the economic isolation that crushed the USSR and most of communism.

Which had what to do with Cuba or Vietnam?

And now look at today, the US makes most of the policies concerning the world, though not so much lately just because a good number are Anti-Government.

So a nation can at best tie in one war, win a moderate diplomatic victory, and get totally smashed in another war, and still come out on top? Cool!

They are just SYMBOLS. The side or set of powers who wins there will invariably have the controll over the system halting the advance of an incoming threat. then they can hold up said symbols as their points of rule.

Symbols are well and good, but the Soviet Union didn't collapse due to symbols. It collapsed because it was run very poorly.

America's defeat in Vietnam didn't win the Soviet Union anything. Why would one side or another gain some huge advantage in "symbolism" from the Gorn situation?

I think you are missing the simple basics of politics. At the end, it's about money, power, and military strength.

A lot of why communists were marching in Saigon was because we didn't want to give the S. Vietnamese enough support, but that's another line entirely.

Ah well fine. I concede my point of discussion.


Whats to stop someone from aiming a superweapon visually? Aim big weapon at planet or biggest ship, mathematically calculate firing angle (simple geometry and trig) and Fire. no more planet/ship. But yeah I'm not defending it just looking at this in another way.