StarDestroyer.Net BBS

PeZook wrote:The Reds didn't issue any demands, either

We decided that sinking Astarian cargo ships is doable on our own, without any demands. Actually I didn't "bomb" anythinng but Astarian naval facilities, ports and ships. Astaria played on the collateral from attacks against industrial targets.

In any case,naval traffic to and from Astaria after all the bombings is very risky and I feel not many would even consider sendingn their ship to Astaria.

Stas Bush wrote: We decided that sinking Astarian cargo ships is doable on our own, without any demands. Actually I didn't "bomb" anythinng but Astarian naval facilities, ports and ships. Astaria played on the collateral from attacks against industrial targets.

In any case,naval traffic to and from Astaria after all the bombings is very risky and I feel not many would even consider sendingn their ship to Astaria.

So even if they abolished slavery 10 minutes after your airstrikes and apologized profusely, you'd still hunt down their cargo ships?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

PeZook wrote:The curious thing about this war is that neither side declared one, and the CSR doesn't even recognize Astaria. The Reds didn't issue any demands, either

PeZookian officials will hit up the CSR politickos quietly and see if we can get the Republic to stop bombing and torpedoing Astaria at least.

After all, if we get the Astarian markets to open up...hoo, boy. More than 100 million consumers!

Not really. These aren't the most sophisticated of consumers, nor are their buying power comparable to 1st world.

At this point 112 million with an average GNP per capita of $6346 (if you assume an 8% drop in GNP in 2010), similar to that of Ukraina, and with more than twice the population. Given that Ukraina is very much a growing market this isn't that bad. The problem is of course that Astarian business regulations can be a bit tricky, and the country believes strongly that Autarchy is the best way forward. Of course they can no longer afford Autarchy due to the need for foreign armaments.

Anyway for some idea of what Astaria FEELS like read Culture of Astaria. I should also add that fashions have more in common with Brazil than anywhere else, men may at times wear make-up to hide imperfections of the skin, and it's overall a very weird place.

If they like autarky so much, just set up local manufacturing plants with foreign capital, or hire some well paid (by Astarian standards) lawyers to figure out loopholes for you

What?! Shep, that's outrageous. Are you planning to starve them to death!?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:What?! Shep, that's outrageous. Are you planning to starve them to death!?

Stage 1: Prepare the battlefield and the population

Stage 2: ???

Stage 3: We welcome the Astarian Democratic Republic into the fold of the world's nations.

Yeah.

"Well, they're not really free just yet, so let's just kill them all, mmkay?"

MKSheppard wrote:Stage 3: We welcome the Astarian Democratic Republic into the fold of the world's nations.

That assumes there's anyone left after the population die off.

Next, the survivors are going to absolutely hate the rest of the world, especially CSR and Shepistan.

I have no doubt that Astaria has some decent food reserves, so they won't starve right away. However, he'll be faced with a hard choice soon, the one that North Korea faced:

Do we maintain the armed forces and state security forces at high levels and let everyone else starve?

North Korea let their people starve, in any event.

EDIT: Oh yes, in any event, kiss good bye to Astaria's autarkyism system and isolation. Quick, lets all send him food aid from our huge surplus stocks as a humanitarian gesture!

Here's a novel thought: fund abolitionist groups so that they can buy indentured servants out of debt sooner than 10 years.

*gasp*! Problem solved!

But no, let's make the current abolitionist administration suffer greatly and be deposed in favor of some insane motherfucker with a grudge against everyone. Because genocide worked so well for fostering good relations in the past

Besides, again, it turns out Astarians are a bunch of bumbling fools who can't shoot down drones or the An-22s that launch them.

PeZook wrote:Besides, again, it turns out Astarians are a bunch of bumbling fools who can't shoot down drones or the An-22s that launch them.

Um, they ARE shooting down the Firebees. The survival rate for Firebees varied from 52% to 82% depending on the model used over North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. I'm expecting a 50% loss rate minimal for them.

PeZook wrote:So even if they abolished slavery 10 minutes after your airstrikes and apologized profusely, you'd still hunt down their cargo ships?

In that case the CSR would cease hostilitie (we expended shitloads of missiles, this war already cost us around a billion in munitions alone, not counting fuel for ships and planes). Witthout slaves, ttere's no market for kidnappers and Astarian ships can sail.

You know, if this continues, I'll be inclined to grant Astarian request to supply ASW planes and related air defences.

MKSheppard wrote:The survival rate for Firebees varied from 52% to 82% depending on the model used over North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. I'm expecting a 50% loss rate minimal for them.

Astaria's IADS is far more dense and modern. They would probably lose more, Shep. S-300 and MiG-31 kill envelope is far ggreater than what Vietnam utilized.

Stas Bush wrote:Astaria's IADS is far more dense and modern. They would probably lose more, Shep. S-300 and MiG-31 kill envelope is far ggreater than what Vietnam utilized.

True, however S-300s can't be everywhere; and I suspect much of Astaria's armed forces consist of Omega Units or in lowered readiness states; Astaria isn't North Korea where everyone starves or has no car so the Armed Forces can operate thousands of SAMs etc.

MKSheppard wrote: True, however S-300s can't be everywhere; and I suspect much of Astaria's armed forces consist of Omega Units or in lowered readiness states; Astaria isn't North Korea where everyone starves or has no car so the Armed Forces can operate thousands of SAMs etc.

You're kinda at war with them, though.

PeZook wrote:You're kinda at war with them, though.

The drones are airlaunched from An-22s, which have a huge range, meaning I can just fly around the long route and launch them towards parts of Astaria where his defenses are weak. I mean 4,000 mile range on An-22 plus 2,000 mile range on Drone = is just awesome.

And I'm prepared to accept a high loss rate.

Alas, poor Firebee drone #42131, shot down as you were approaching Astaria. You shall be remembered as giving your mechanical all in the battle against Slavery.

Astaria has many top fighters.

Not to say old weapons totally suck, but the reaality is that KC-22s wll light up on OTH radars like Chrisstmas tree. So would the launches.

Even if he scrambles a pair of MiG-31s to an area of 100x100 km wheer the OTH believes the target could be, that pair of fighters couuld kill huge amounts of drones on their own - they have PESA arrays tthat would allow tracking and firing to kill at 100 km.

Threre would be failures and the lke, but very little number of drones will mmake it to targets.. Insside Astaria - maybe yes. .But the longer they fly, the more likely their destruction.

S-200, S-125 would operate unimpended against Firebees as well.

MKSheppard wrote:The drones are airlaunched from An-22s, which have a huge range, meaning I can just fly around the long route and launch them towards parts of Astaria where his defenses are weak.

If those are unidentified planes, actually Norse can kill your invasion force. Some of hs fighters have the neccessary range with refuellinng.

Also, 2000 km? It has a 1 hr endurance, which at the 1100 kph speed means around 1100 km.

Stas Bush wrote:Threre would be failures and the lke, but very little number of drones will mmake it to targets.. Insside Astaria - maybe yes. .But the longer they fly, the more likely their destruction.

It also draws down his stocks of munitions.

S-200, S-125 would operate unimpended against Firebees as well.

I wouldn't be so sanguine about that; one of the Firebees during Vietnam acting as SAM-baiters managed to draw 11 (!)SA-2s and evade them before it was finally shot down.

If those are unidentified planes, actually Norse can kill your invasion force. Some of hs fighters have the neccessary range with refuellinng.

Oh goody! That would actually be interesting. Then I could go and hire Stern's Wildcats, flying Tiger-striped F-16s to fly CAP over my planes...for a price


James Stern, a man who can be bought.

It also draws down his stocks of munitions.

Correct. But the OTH radar has no way telling what the hell was launched. In all fairness, he would be expecting an ALCM barrage, so he'd be all up to prevent damage to his nation.

Aerial assets are best - his MiG-31s, of which he has lots (he should really thaank Marina), operating in conjunction with his AEW planes, could sweep clear huge 600x600 km areas. He would also cross such ranges very swiftly at 3000 kph.

I would believe he would also use figghter guns to kill Firebees, not to waste missiles. MiG-31s are fast.

one of the Firebees during Vietnam acting as SAM-baiters managed to draw 11 (!)SA-2s and evade them before it was finally shot down.

Yes, a high expenditure rate for ground based stationary SAMs is expected. Note however that the result is still achieved.

PeZook wrote:If they like autarky so much, just set up local manufacturing plants with foreign capital, or hire some well paid (by Astarian standards) lawyers to figure out loopholes for you

That will be necessary in part, but we need some genuine trade, and the Astarian pound has to be registered on the world market. In fact I'm not sure if anyone really knows what the pound is worth, or what the Astarian military budget is (high).

Alright Shep I have a few quick questions which I hope you'll answer:

1. How many AN-22s were involved in this operation?
2. Did they base out of Wells Island (Steve's place)?
3. What directions did they approach from?
4. What range did they launch from?
5. How many Firebees did they release?
6. What model designation Firebee?

Damn, Shady, the guy already had his head up Frank The Elephant's ass! Give him a break

Okay, so what is the timeline here? In what chronological order do we get the Shepistani partisan attack, the Shepistani/CSR port strike, and the Astarian government's use of the war scare to start abolition?

Steve wrote:Okay, so what is the timeline here? In what chronological order do we get the Shepistani partisan attack, the Shepistani/CSR port strike, and the Astarian government's use of the war scare to start abolition?

First come the CSR bombings ; Then partisan attacks ; About a day later, the crackdown against the MLF begins ; Sebastian and Amanda hear of the attacks some time after that from TV news ; Then we get the abolition speech, then the CSR/Shepistani port attack, then bio attacks.

That's as far as I understand ; Norseman may correct me if I got something wrong.