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I wonder how Thrawn managed to do all that mapping and conquering from his slave-cage? Doesn't everyone else?

Really, Patrick, if you want a comprehensive and pretty face-value analysis of Palpatine and the First Empire from the whole canon, you should read Publius' essays on the subject in the Analysis section of his Domus Publica website.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Oh, by the way, this little bit of cretinism requires actual quotation, just so everyone can see for themselves what a dumb shit you are:

No Numbers Fallacy once again. I would love to see the formula by which you quantify "every soul in the Rebellion" as troop numbers and starship crew present at the battle and how you can know that every last person involved was in the fleet and none left at their bases, supply docks, repair facilities, or even on their homeworlds. Clearly, the concept of literary license has sailed past that pointy head of yours for you to float something this idiotic as an "argument".

[i]Return of the Jedi[/i] novelisation wrote:In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustian cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate.

Wait...what?

[i]Return of the Jedi[/i] novelisation wrote:Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.

I'm still not quite sure what that passage said. Let's try one more time:

[i]Return of the Jedi[/i] novelisation wrote:[magnification=Readable by Degan the Dipshit]Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.[/magnification]

Its called citing your sources, and backing your shit up, Degan. That's the formula I use.

Oh man, sorry Degan, but IP, that is fucking EPIC!

Another way to emphasize how puny the Rebellion literally was, there are only eight signatory planets on the Declaration of New Republic. One of them doesn't exist (Alderaan), another remained out of the New Republic for over a decade (Corellia).

The prior interim "Alliance of Free Planets" boasted delegates from about forty worlds, including such indicative worlds as Alderaan, Endor, Kothlis, Tatooine, and Mandalore.

How many worlds did the Empire directly control? At least a million? And fifty million colonies and protectorates?

40/1000000 = .00004. According to Degan, that's actually supposed to represent a significant rebellion. He and Traviss ought to write a book together.

Actually, the Galactic Empire ruled one million fully-enfranchised member polities and fifty million colonies, dependencies, territories and protectorates. So it comprehends at least fifty-one million polities. However, many polities include more than one planet: Talus and Tralus were ruled by a single state; at varying times the Five Sisters had some sort of federal government; etc. So counting inhabited planets and other population centers (artificial habitats such as the theoretical O'Neill cylinders or the documented Duro space cities, and many space stations are so large and populous that they easily compete with some of the fringe planets depicted in the RPG in terms of development and population as some are in the bare millions), we arrive at an extreme lower-limit estimate of worlds at fifty-one million. And of course, not all worlds are created equally. An unrealistically low population estimate of Coruscant yields at one hundred trillion, which is the equivalent of over 15,000 Earth-scale planets.

As much as Degan would like, the Empire is clearly not an openly despotic and arbitrary regime; the entire plot of ANH hinged on the fact that Vader had to conceal his seizure of Tantive IV and arrest of Leia Organa, despite the fact that she had been involved in rebel terrorism, because he simply lacked the legal authority to accost an Imperial Senator: they are considered ambassadors extraordinary and plenipotentiary. And this fact clues us on to another thing: while the fifty-million territories are governed at the Empire's behest, the one-million members are considered quasi-sovereign in their own right - even under the Empire.

So, Primus, it doesn't matter that you cannot quantify your numbers, that you have no reply to the demonstration that other definitions of genius expanding from the simple dictionary entry have been demonstrated, that Octavian's practises were shown to be based on political necessity, that you use an RPG guidebook whose accuracy is under dispute, and the subsequent events of the movies, the Essential Guides the encyclopedias, and the Chronology clearly points to Palpatine being a despotic tyrant. You'll just keep swanning on in your merry way.

How unsurprising.

Patrick Degan wrote:So, Primus, it doesn't matter that you cannot quantify your numbers,

[i]Return of the Jedi[/i] novelisation wrote:[magnification=Readable by Degan the Dipshit]Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.[/magnification]

Actually, I have in three separate places provided calculations that provide numbers that are equivalent in scale to analogies with the U.S. population and prospective Rebellion. I quoted the Return of the Jedi novelisation, a G-canon source, as informing the claim that all or almost all of the Rebels were involved in the Endor operation. Certainly that could be taken to license; but your use of "license" requires that the word of the novel means nothing at all - as I said, the Rebellion would have to exceed fifty billion in order to be comparable to the Branch Davidians of Waco Texas relative to the U.S. The text of the Return of the Jedi novelisation taken with the film Return of the Jedi cannot support such figures.

If "Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions," does not mean "every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike," what does it mean, Degan?

What does it mean? What rigorous methodology did you use to establish your more correct figure? Why should I accept that methodology. I have provided proportional estimates; I have provided calculations; I have cited figures. You have provided nothing, just claimed that up is down, white is black, and 2+2=5.

What is your estimate, Degan?

Enough bluffing; everyone can see your bullshit in bright colors right above here.

Patrick Degan wrote:that you have no reply to the demonstration that other definitions of genius expanding from the simple dictionary entry have been demonstrated,

Why should we use YOUR definition, Degan?

If genius is merely defined according to preference of definition and opinion, by what right and according to what reasoning to you come into this thread, and assault my argument which was qualified relative to a definition of genius I was using. An arbitrary definition of genius means I can define it as I wish and argue from that premise, the only standard thereof being whether people find my definition and case compelling personally or insightful. This is not Newtonian kinematics. If you want to say someone's definition is wrong, you have to say WHY. My simple point was, if the dictionary definition is consistent with my argument, then it is perfectly reasonable to establish genius from that benchmark. You asserted that was wrong, and apparently we're bound by your conveniently ever-changing but never spelled out definition. Your own mysterious unknown mechanism. As I said before, this is a fallacy: auditur et altera pars. A rational debate means you are entitled to reveal your premises, all other statements to it being "obvious" et al are obfuscation with rhetoric; nothing more.

You came in here with a refutation depending on the premise that my definition of genius is WRONG and could not be used. If the definition is arbitrary, that helps my case, not yours. And furthermore, you still haven't gave us your definition, or why its so Pattycakes-awesome. I want to know why Patty-genius is better than dictionary-genius, and why you cannot use definitions other than Patty-genius.

Again:

Why should we use YOUR definition, Degan?

Patrick Degan wrote:that Octavian's practises were shown to be based on political necessity,

I am saying that the names and titles he chose to build his imperial dignity were beside the point that he had already murdered or defeated most political opponents, controlled the fucking army, all the fucking cash, and where everyone got their fucking food. Those things were the BASE of his power; calling himself "augustus" is not. Its not more objectively necessary Palpatine's acclamation as Galactic Emperor.

All you've done is repeat your claim over and over than they are not the same. And then repeated over and over you think that Augustus' political machinations were more necessary than Palpatine's. Fine, that's your opinion. But your opinion is not demonstration and repeating it is not an argument, and it does not provide evidence.

Patrick Degan wrote:that you use an RPG guidebook whose accuracy is under dispute,

Wrong; C-canon sources are valid accept where they are shown to be impossibly reconcilable with G-canon sources. Given that the G-canon A New Hope novelisation claims that the Empire was considered by Rebel recruits a good thing and the problem was people recently in power, and that the G-canon Return of the Jedi novelisation claims that Palpatine was very popular and his death would result in despair by the public, I would say there is more support than contradiction.

Patrick Degan wrote:and the subsequent events of the movies,

Your ROTJ parade? While it makes for good rhetoric, I could easily say that in a city of over one hundred trillion, a few thousand or even ten thousand rioters could be merely Rebel sympathizers or anti-Palpatinists (not all anti-Palpatinists were Rebels before you try to contradict me on the ROTJ novelisation; Garm bel Iblis was an anti-Palpatinist, a guerilla leader, but not part of the Alliance) trying to set up a revolution. Fact is it got put down, there was a popular cult set up by Imperial Intelligence claiming Palpatine's eventual resurrection, and it is reconcilable by saying the rioters represented a minority of the population. Guess what - the people we see are definitely a minority of the population: no explicit contradiction exists. Guess how much your "feel" matters? Its the same claim made by anti-Endor Holocaust idiots. Does not contradict the facts.

The facts are that Palpatine was very popular, most people would be upset by his death, and some several thousand Coruscanti rioted in response to his death. You would prefer for the latter to mean that was how the majority of the galaxy felt, but this is not a required consequence or implication. Your "reconcilation" is to discard a source you dislike, even though it is in general agreement. Guess which approach wins?

Patrick Degan wrote:the Essential Guides the encyclopedias, and the Chronology clearly points to Palpatine being a despotic tyrant. You'll just keep swanning on in your merry way.

Except no one here doesn't think Palpatine was a tyrant or a despot; he was both. He was not a good person. But Stalin was a political genius. And he was a bloodied paranoid. I do not think that genius is necessarily distinct from tyranny or despotism. Benevolence is not the same as genius. And you can dislike the "evil genius" cliche all you want; nonetheless, I am pretty sure and most would agree that that is exactly the idea set up by films and EU in general.

Patrick Degan wrote:How unsurprising.

Indeed you are; Scooteristic as you are, you repeat your claims and assertions over and over and over as if they are evidence for arguments. I have cited sources, I have done maths, and you just keep on bleating.

I'm not sure which is funnier, Degan trying to argue against G-canon, or Degan ignoring everything that's been written on this thread in the last week and expecting people to suddenly go blind and amnesic and buy his sophistry.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Your bitching about the Republic fails to substantiate that the Republic did not have direct governmental control over much of the Outer Rim. The Empire did; its political and social services were there. Jabba's court is noticeably absent of the chattel slavery of the Republic, no? There is at least some attempt to policing of the fringe, compared to the Republic where even the currency held no value - the worst slums of Russia may have gangsters, but you can pay protection in rubles.

Oola, the twi'lek slave dancer?

True, thank you. Though I'd prefer more than a single nitpick if you have a problem with my thesis.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:True, thank you. Though I'd prefer more than a single nitpick if you have a problem with my thesis.

Other than the aforementioned nitpick, I have no problem with it at all.

There's a significant difference between the chattel slavery of Tatooine that formed large ghettos in the cities in The Phantom Menace and what is essentially a prostitute in the bowels of a monastery in the middle of the wilderness overrun by gangsters in Return of the Jedi.

TC Pilot wrote:There's a significant difference between the chattel slavery of Tatooine that formed large ghettos in the cities in The Phantom Menace and what is essentially a prostitute in the bowels of a monastery in the middle of the wilderness overrun by gangsters in Return of the Jedi.

She is not "essentially a prostitute" she is a slave. That is like saying that Kunta Kinte was "essentially an indentured servant". C'mon.

Fair enough. I don't disagree that Oola was a slave, but the point still stands.

The double standards are thick; Degan wants us to suddenly subscribe to canon sources only when it suits his agenda? Bullshit. It's all or nothing, hotshot, unless the source contradicts George Lucas or other G-canon sources. The Dark Side Sourcebook specifically states that Darth Sidious is a "diabolically calculating genius" and the Return of the Jedi novelization refers to him as an "evil genius". In the Star Wars mythos, G-canon might as well be the voice of God. It's irrefutable and incontrovertible, and none of your diatribes has cited a single source to contradict it (should such a thing exist). These two quotes alone trump your entire argument.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:So, Primus, it doesn't matter that you cannot quantify your numbers,

[i]Return of the Jedi[/i] novelisation wrote:[magnification=Readable by Degan the Dipshit]Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.[/magnification]

Actually, I have in three separate places provided calculations that provide numbers that are equivalent in scale to analogies with the U.S. population and prospective Rebellion. I quoted the Return of the Jedi novelisation, a G-canon source, as informing the claim that all or almost all of the Rebels were involved in the Endor operation. Certainly that could be taken to license; but your use of "license" requires that the word of the novel means nothing at all - as I said, the Rebellion would have to exceed fifty billion in order to be comparable to the Branch Davidians of Waco Texas relative to the U.S. The text of the Return of the Jedi novelisation taken with the film Return of the Jedi cannot support such figures.

If "Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions," does not mean "every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike," what does it mean, Degan?

What does it mean? What rigorous methodology did you use to establish your more correct figure? Why should I accept that methodology. I have provided proportional estimates; I have provided calculations; I have cited figures. You have provided nothing, just claimed that up is down, white is black, and 2+2=5.

What is your estimate, Degan?

Enough bluffing; everyone can see your bullshit in bright colors right above here.

Uh huh.

A clip from the 2004 Special Edition of Return Of The Jedi which ends debate on the matter:

It's a TRAP!

Space battle at Endor, showing nowhere near the number of Rebel ships which would be necessary to carry even one million personnel into the battle, nevermind the unspecified "millions" of your favourite passage from the ROTJ novel —which, BTW, does NOT trump the actual movie no matter how much you dearly love to believe otherwise.



Oh, and as for your other novel-based assertion of the galaxy "falling into despair" if they lose Palpatine:

Bye-bye, Palpy

Celebrations over Palpatine's downfall across the galaxy. The specific locations seen in these clips are the Endor moon, Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo, and Coruscant —the capital world itself.

The galaxy's peoples are partying to try to cover up their despair over the loss of their beloved emperor, I suppose...



No matter how many times you shout and stamp your little feet, Primus, I will ALWAYS have the direct visual evidence of the movie to rebut you. Visuals trump contradictory dialogue each and every time. Always will. Eat it.

Are you really that stupid?

The movie and novel are not in conflict, unless one is so utterly dense to think that the movie is showing the entire Rebel and Imperial fleets at Endor.

Alright, let's say that what we see in the movies is the entirety of the Rebel Alliance fleet, one that couldn't possibly carry even a million personnel onboard (keep in mind the novel doesn't give a number. So you're either an illiterate retard or a total liar, take your pick). You still have to deal with the canon fact that every Rebel was present. That means this rebellion that clearly demonstrates the unpopularity of Palpatine is less than one million people. Do you have any idea how utterly stupid you're making yourself look? Apparently not.

As for your "refutation" of Palpatine's popularity, let's actually stop and think about what you're suggesting (since you obviously applied absolutely no thought to your response). Four planets celebrate. Correction, four specific locations on four planets, one of which is a pissant backwater of no importance, another that's only population is on a single city floating in the atmosphere, another is generally insignificant even back in the time of the Old Republic, and a few city blocks on a planet that boasts a population of over a trillion.

Out of an empire than spans FIFTY MILLION WORLDS.

FIFTY MILLION WORLDS

Have you managed to grasp that yet, dumbass? Do you have any sense of scale? Can you calculate basic fractions? Do you even know how the damn canon system works?

Obviously not, since you expected this intellectual sewage to be anything but a complete joke.

How about instead of posting this complete bullshit, avoiding the evidence presented repeatedly, and generally acting like what one would generously call a "complete fucktard," you actually counter your opponents (emphasis on plural, since you seem convinced only IP exists on this thread) or, god forbid, admit that you have absolutely no clue what the fuck you're talking about and concede this utter tripe.

Patrick Degan wrote:A clip from the 2004 Special Edition of Return Of The Jedi which ends debate on the matter:

It's a TRAP!

Space conflict always occurs within visual range, Patrick? The novelisation says that the fleet stretches beyond sight, so we wouldn't see it in a single close frame, now would we?

Patrick Degan wrote:Space battle at Endor, showing nowhere near the number of Rebel ships which would be necessary to carry even one million personnel into the battle, nevermind the unspecified "millions" of your favourite passage from the ROTJ novel —which, BTW, does NOT trump the actual movie no matter how much you dearly love to believe otherwise.

You utter imbecile: I made the "millions" estimate to be extremely charitable to your side; a strict interpretation from the source you just cited in combination with the novelisation would suggest fewer than a million Rebels! Lowering the proportional strength of the Rebellion below that of the 20 9/11 hijackers, and more like a single clown throwing a nailbomb at the Olympics. Either way nothing you have posted suggests the Rebellion was a broad-based movement with statistically significant support. Your entire argument hinged on the claim that the Alliance to Restore the Republic constituted a broadbased movement and proved Palpatine's ineffectiveness and unpopularity.

Patrick Degan wrote:Oh, and as for your other novel-based assertion of the galaxy "falling into despair" if they lose Palpatine:

Bye-bye, Palpy

Celebrations over Palpatine's downfall across the galaxy. The specific locations seen in these clips are the Endor moon, Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo, and Coruscant —the capital world itself.

Yeah, you're right, those totally constitute a statistical sample of the galaxy according to scholarly recognized statistical sampling methods, not at all superficial evidence. I suppose everyone in Iraq was helping tear down that statue in Baghdad...

Patrick Degan wrote:The galaxy's peoples are partying to try to cover up their despair over the loss of their beloved emperor, I suppose...

Uh, four worlds of more than fifty-one million, the last of which shows barely a few thousand protester on a world of quadrillions? Tell me Patrick, if there was universal support for the Rebellion, why did it only claim forty or so worlds in the aftermath of Endor? Why did it take the intentional abandonment of the capital, a round of coups, an opposition regime to the regency on Coruscant, widescale warlordism, and over two years before the Rebellion became a major power?

Regardless, he still came back and reconquered nearly the entire galaxy in under a year after the Empire had been reduced to less than a quarter of its former territory. Really unpopular and ineffective, that.

Patrick Degan wrote:No matter how many times you shout and stamp your little feet, Primus, I will ALWAYS have the direct visual evidence of the movie to rebut you. Visuals trump contradictory dialogue each and every time. Always will. Eat it.

Does the celebration on Endor prevent the Endor Holocaust? Because if the superficial "feel" of the films does not contradict the reality behind the scenes, a few thousand rioters on Coruscant do not make majority or even major disapproval of Palpatine's rule personally or institutionally. George Lucas personally edits the novelizations. Whatever the intent of the celebratory scenes, he also approved a long war to dethrone the Empire which many remained loyal to. I suppose documentary depiction of the Muslim riots in France would suggest that the rioters represented the majority of the French?

Got to give it to TC for the flame points. Good show.

TC, I have to say, I'm actually looking forward to Degan's next episode of "Pattycakes Feigns Familiarity with Star Wars Continuity and Canon Policy" - if its as hilariously uninformed, incoherent, and incapable of realizing the point.

I mean for Christ's sake, this guy argued that not every Rebel could be at Endor, I quote that that is exactly true, and therefore obviously the Rebellion was very small, and he claims my throw-a-bone large figures are the issue at hand?

It was certainly hilarious to behold. I haven't seen anyone so utterly moronic or dishonest since I last debated JMSpock a few months back.

It's really a shame, considering his avatar is easily an evil genius, much like Palpatine.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I mean for Christ's sake, this guy argued that not every Rebel could be at Endor, I quote that that is exactly true, and therefore obviously the Rebellion was very small, and he claims my throw-a-bone large figures are the issue at hand?

Which I think doesn't really make a lot of sense, either. A terrorist/rebel organization of say a million in a galaxy of a hundred quadrillions is a proportion of one member of the Alliance for every hundred billion sentients.

Considering the relative importance and impact of Rebel activities that sounds distinctly too low, even if Palpatine allowed them to get away with a lot for the sole purpose of using them as justification for the continued growth of the Imperial military.

Sincerely, considering this and the existence of a few Rebel worlds with multi-billion populations (chiefly Mon Calamari), I'd simply avoid taking that particular passage literally. It is just like the oft mentioned, oft ignored official population of one trillion for Coruscant, it is simply too low for an organization that has managed to cause some instances of serious trouble for the Galactic Empire.

Because a state sponsors terrorism, not all citizens of that state are then terrorists. Mon Cal need not contradict the ROTJ novelisation. Also, I brought up the 9/11 case for a reason; flukes and particular high-value attacks can make even the statistically small important threats. Nevertheless, none of these things change the fact the Rebellion did not constitute, in of itself, a major threat to Palpatine's rule, and was not very large or popular.

Murazor wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I mean for Christ's sake, this guy argued that not every Rebel could be at Endor, I quote that that is exactly true, and therefore obviously the Rebellion was very small, and he claims my throw-a-bone large figures are the issue at hand?

Which I think doesn't really make a lot of sense, either. A terrorist/rebel organization of say a million in a galaxy of a hundred quadrillions is a proportion of one member of the Alliance for every hundred billion sentients.

Considering the relative importance and impact of Rebel activities that sounds distinctly too low, even if Palpatine allowed them to get away with a lot for the sole purpose of using them as justification for the continued growth of the Imperial military.

Sincerely, considering this and the existence of a few Rebel worlds with multi-billion populations (chiefly Mon Calamari), I'd simply avoid taking that particular passage literally. It is just like the oft mentioned, oft ignored official population of one trillion for Coruscant, it is simply too low for an organization that has managed to cause some instances of serious trouble for the Galactic Empire.

Much of the Rebellion's attributed success comes from the fact that it experiences sheer fortuitous luck in many episodes (The Battle of Yavin, and probably even Endor all pinged on the triumphs of Luke Skywalker.), and that it chooses high profile targets to destroy which brings the attention of the entire galaxy upon them. A lot of that attention is even hyped up by the Empire itself in an effort to bring neutral worlds over to the Empire's banner, as the Imperial Sourcebook mentions under the Organizations section.

Also, the Rebellion's favored strategy against the Empire is founded on the concept of hide-and-seek, where it engages the Empire head on only when the odds would totally prevail towards its victory. When it doesn't have odds in its favor it chooses subterfuge and shadowy tactics to achieve its victories. In fact, the only time the Rebellion engaged the Empire pre-ROTJ, head on, was when some mission went awry and an Imperial taskforce encroached upon the area or when the situation was critical with all bets off the table and the fate of the galaxy was at stake (e.g. Yavin, Endor).

Honestly, I don't think the Emperor lost any sleep at night over the Rebellion. It was almost as if he didn't care about the Rebellion's attack in ROTJ, while Skywalker was his main focus instead (Watch what the Emperor says to Vader in the throne room, and note how the battle was hardly even a concern for him.).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:A clip from the 2004 Special Edition of Return Of The Jedi which ends debate on the matter:

It's a TRAP!

Space conflict always occurs within visual range, Patrick? The novelisation says that the fleet stretches beyond sight, so we wouldn't see it in a single close frame, now would we?

Patrick Degan wrote:Space battle at Endor, showing nowhere near the number of Rebel ships which would be necessary to carry even one million personnel into the battle, nevermind the unspecified "millions" of your favourite passage from the ROTJ novel —which, BTW, does NOT trump the actual movie no matter how much you dearly love to believe otherwise.

You utter imbecile: I made the "millions" estimate to be extremely charitable to your side; a strict interpretation from the source you just cited in combination with the novelisation would suggest fewer than a million Rebels! Lowering the proportional strength of the Rebellion below that of the 20 9/11 hijackers, and more like a single clown throwing a nailbomb at the Olympics. Either way nothing you have posted suggests the Rebellion was a broad-based movement with statistically significant support. Your entire argument hinged on the claim that the Alliance to Restore the Republic constituted a broadbased movement and proved Palpatine's ineffectiveness and unpopularity.

Patrick Degan wrote:Oh, and as for your other novel-based assertion of the galaxy "falling into despair" if they lose Palpatine:

Bye-bye, Palpy

Celebrations over Palpatine's downfall across the galaxy. The specific locations seen in these clips are the Endor moon, Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo, and Coruscant —the capital world itself.

Yeah, you're right, those totally constitute a statistical sample of the galaxy according to scholarly recognized statistical sampling methods, not at all superficial evidence. I suppose everyone in Iraq was helping tear down that statue in Baghdad...

Patrick Degan wrote:The galaxy's peoples are partying to try to cover up their despair over the loss of their beloved emperor, I suppose...

Uh, four worlds of more than fifty-one million, the last of which shows barely a few thousand protester on a world of quadrillions? Tell me Patrick, if there was universal support for the Rebellion, why did it only claim forty or so worlds in the aftermath of Endor? Why did it take the intentional abandonment of the capital, a round of coups, an opposition regime to the regency on Coruscant, widescale warlordism, and over two years before the Rebellion became a major power?

Regardless, he still came back and reconquered nearly the entire galaxy in under a year after the Empire had been reduced to less than a quarter of its former territory. Really unpopular and ineffective, that.

Patrick Degan wrote:No matter how many times you shout and stamp your little feet, Primus, I will ALWAYS have the direct visual evidence of the movie to rebut you. Visuals trump contradictory dialogue each and every time. Always will. Eat it.

Does the celebration on Endor prevent the Endor Holocaust? Because if the superficial "feel" of the films does not contradict the reality behind the scenes, a few thousand rioters on Coruscant do not make majority or even major disapproval of Palpatine's rule personally or institutionally. George Lucas personally edits the novelizations. Whatever the intent of the celebratory scenes, he also approved a long war to dethrone the Empire which many remained loyal to. I suppose documentary depiction of the Muslim riots in France would suggest that the rioters represented the majority of the French?

Translation from Primus-Speak: "Don't believe what you see in that lying movie, MINE is the True Word."

Boeing757 wrote:Honestly, I don't think the Emperor lost any sleep at night over the Rebellion. It was almost as if he didn't care about the Rebellion's attack in ROTJ, while Skywalker was his main focus instead (Watch what the Emperor says to Vader in the throne room, and note how the battle was hardly even a concern for him.).

You could not be more correct even if you tried. Very well said.

Patrick Degan: You really are mentally retarded, aren't you? Do you actually expect that kind of dishonest dumbfuckery to go unnoticed? Seriously, do yourself a favor while you can salvage any semblence of a claim to whatever figment of intelligence is locked away in that otherwise worthless mass of shit between your ears and just concede you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about, have absolutely no real evidence to substantiate your argument, and have failed miserably to refute the voluminous amount of canonical material presented against you.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I'm amazed more by your sheer stupidity, or that you've actually managed to surpass that dumbass JMSpock in terms of intellectual bankruptcy.

TC Pilot wrote:Patrick Degan: You really are mentally retarded, aren't you? Do you actually expect that kind of dishonest dumbfuckery to go unnoticed? Seriously, do yourself a favor while you can salvage any semblence of a claim to whatever figment of intelligence is locked away in that otherwise worthless mass of shit between your ears and just concede you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about, have absolutely no real evidence to substantiate your argument, and have failed miserably to refute the voluminous amount of canonical material presented against you.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I'm amazed more by your sheer stupidity, or that you've actually managed to surpass that dumbass JMSpock in terms of intellectual bankruptcy.

Here's a clue for you: according to Lucas policy, where there is a contradiction between the movie and the material in a book —even in a novelisation— the movie wins and the book loses.

To AGAIN quote the matter from Curt Saxton's own website:

Secondary and Further Sources.

Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films. Where they conflict with the films they are in error (except in cases where the film has an obvious blooper). Otherwise the secondary source is in error, and cannot serve as a basis for judging the internal reality of the STAR WARS universe.

That is Curt Saxton saying this, not myself. That is evidence, which has been presented in this thread before and has simply been ignored, for the position that the book does not trump what is seen in the actual movie.