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Are EU sales reflecting the general disgust the rest of us fans are feeling towards this attrocity of a series of novels. Not that the EU has ever been stellar but usually its at least passable and the prequel era novels I found to be generally decent but what I've been hearing lately just makes me wish they would kill this but I know they won't because there are people still buying these books and probably will continue to do so no matter what kind of turn the EU takes in terms of quality.

Are we that of an uncaring fanbase that we'll buy anything with the Star Wars name stamped across it?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Kinda sad that you have nothing to add of substance.

Fine, lets see if we can change this then.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Of course, here comes the "whine whine EU mean to Zahn!" cry-brigade. The truth was is that Zahn's writing was always unrealistic and never depicted naval combat or officers well, inviting objective evaluations of his characters' competence that were not flattering.

I found Zahn's writting, and subsequently his depictions of naval officers and combat to be almost identical to what we see in the OT. So what if 'reality' says otherwise? We are in the SW universe, as long as he carries out what is seen in the movies he isn't doing anything wrong.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Zahn made Pelleaon the XO of the Chimaera, which means he was not legally in any position or competence to issue a retreat order

Captain Palleaon was to the chain of command under Grand Admiral Thrawn, what Captain Piet was to Admiral Ozzel. Show me where this is shown to be otherwise in TTT.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:- literally every single CO would have to be incapacitated before the chain of command will fall to him.

Really? I didn't see Vader asking which Captain of the fleet was highest ranking after executing Ozzel. More to point, I don't understand where the fuck you get this notion that if an Admiral is present on ship, the reigning Captain of that ship suddenly gets demoted to Ensign. Please, do explain where this is shown to be true.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its total bullshit that the evidence could ever have been construed where every captain or even nearly every single skipper in the fucking fleet could not do shit and it really fell upon Old Fuss and Failure.

What are you talking about? In TLC, every ship present was waiting on the Chimaera for orders. Palleaon's internal monologue establishes that while things had gone FUBAR, Thrawn would still have been able to pull off the victory, he (that is to say Palleaon) knew that he couldn't beat Akbar. So we have it right there; the only hint of a heirarch present in that battle, present in the TTT; Palleaon was second in command. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its not anyone else's fault - its Zahn's for making an old man a post captain for fifty years and an executive officer at Endor. When Zahnites say that "the intent was blah blah blah" - what they really mean is that they really enjoyed reading their first mainstream EU book back in the early '90's, and do not like errors, Zahn's or otherwise, contradicting those feelings - even if there are objective mistakes.

Hang on, I just got this, are we talking about Endor or Bilbringi here? If Endor, then don't I have egg on my face? And of course, conceeded. It is unrealistic that the entire fleet was reduced to XO's. So time for me to eat some humble pie. Go on. say it. I'm an idiot.

Stravo wrote:Are EU sales reflecting the general disgust the rest of us fans are feeling towards this attrocity of a series of novels. Not that the EU has ever been stellar but usually its at least passable and the prequel era novels I found to be generally decent but what I've been hearing lately just makes me wish they would kill this but I know they won't because there are people still buying these books and probably will continue to do so no matter what kind of turn the EU takes in terms of quality.

Are we that of an uncaring fanbase that we'll buy anything with the Star Wars name stamped across it?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.

Crown wrote:Captain Palleaon was to the chain of command under Grand Admiral Thrawn, what Captain Piet was to Admiral Ozzel. Show me where this is shown to be otherwise in TTT.

He wasn't a captain at Endor. He took command of the ship when his CO died. He was, at best, an acting-captain.

Really? I didn't see Vader asking which Captain of the fleet was highest ranking after executing Ozzel.

Probably because Vader was Supreme Commander of all Imperial forces, and he can promote whoever he likes to whatever position he likes.

What are you talking about? In TLC, every ship present was waiting on the Chimaera for orders. Palleaon's internal monologue establishes that while things had gone FUBAR, Thrawn would still have been able to pull off the victory, he (that is to say Palleaon) knew that he couldn't beat Akbar. So we have it right there; the only hint of a heirarch present in that battle, present in the TTT; Palleaon was second in command. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

The Battle of Bilbringi is not the Battle of Endor. Please remember that.

He wasn't a captain at Endor. He took command of the ship when his CO died. He was, at best, an acting-captain.

Do we know what Pellaeon's rank was at Endor? Couldn't his commander have been an Admiral, in much the same way as Admiral Ozzel and Captain Piett? I mean, there were a number of Grand Admirals at Endor so an Admiral commanding an ImpStar in the fleet is not totally out there.

Anguirus wrote:

He wasn't a captain at Endor. He took command of the ship when his CO died. He was, at best, an acting-captain.

Do we know what Pellaeon's rank was at Endor? Couldn't his commander have been an Admiral, in much the same way as Admiral Ozzel and Captain Piett? I mean, there were a number of Grand Admirals at Endor so an Admiral commanding an ImpStar in the fleet is not totally out there.

Gilad Pellaeon was a captain at Endor, but he was not captain of his ship (there is a difference between the grade of captain, often called a 'post captain' for clarity's sake, and the position of captain, or commanding officer). The Star Wars Encyclopedia states that he had risen to the rank of captain but only the position of "first officer" (i.e., executive officer) on board the Chimaera.

This is not analogous to the relationship between Fleet Admiral Kendal Ozzel and Captain Firmus Piett. It has been clearly established (by the Star Wars Encyclopedia among others) that Piett was the captain of the Executor as well as Ozzel's captain of the fleet; Executor was merely Ozzel's flagship, he did not have actual command of her. She subsequently became Admiral Piett's flagship, as demonstrated by him transferring his flag to Accuser when Darth Vader detached Executor from Death Squadron and returned with her to Imperial Center (Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook).

In any case, Heir to the Empire says he'd taken command when Chimaera's "former captain" had been killed. From a literary perspective, this probably means an officer in the grade of captain -- Zahn does not usually use "captain" in the positional sense when speaking of the Navy -- but it is possible it meant merely the ship's skipper. In any case, it doesn't seem likely that it was a flag officer, as that would tend to imply that there were two officers ahead of Pellaeon in the chain of command on board, and it strains credulity that both would have been killed.

Crown wrote:I found Zahn's writting, and subsequently his depictions of naval officers and combat to be almost identical to what we see in the OT. So what if 'reality' says otherwise? We are in the SW universe, as long as he carries out what is seen in the movies he isn't doing anything wrong.

Except the movies never pretended to portray a naval campaign in detail, merely errend-running by Vader et al. Furthermore, that's a dodge, and you fucking know it: whether or not it "feels" similar to the movies does not in anyway defend the stupidity written under SoD. You know that.

Crown wrote:Captain Palleaon was to the chain of command under Grand Admiral Thrawn, what Captain Piet was to Admiral Ozzel. Show me where this is shown to be otherwise in TTT.

Good thing we're talking about the Battle of Endor, not any in the TTT.

Crown wrote:Really? I didn't see Vader asking which Captain of the fleet was highest ranking after executing Ozzel. More to point, I don't understand where the fuck you get this notion that if an Admiral is present on ship, the reigning Captain of that ship suddenly gets demoted to Ensign. Please, do explain where this is shown to be true.

Supreme Commanders generally can promote whomever they want. Do you really think that is comparable to simply assuming authority and issuing orders? Furthermore, CAPT Pelleaon was the XO of the Chimaera; so he is inferior in the chain-of-command to all the COs in the fleet. Its not hard to understand.

Crown wrote:What are you talking about? In TLC, every ship present was waiting on the Chimaera for orders. Palleaon's internal monologue establishes that while things had gone FUBAR, Thrawn would still have been able to pull off the victory, he (that is to say Palleaon) knew that he couldn't beat Akbar. So we have it right there; the only hint of a heirarch present in that battle, present in the TTT; Palleaon was second in command. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

He knew he could not salvage the battle and he knew they had to retreat; that does not mean there were not subordinate task force commanders to Thrawn in the fleet. But this is besides the point, because no one is arguing over Pelleaon's role in TTT - we're talking about ROTJ and his illegal retreat. (By the by: portraying Thrawn's flag captain and perhaps captain of the fleet as a second-in-command is one of the telling examples of Zahn's naivety regarding naval matters).

Crown wrote:Hang on, I just got this, are we talking about Endor or Bilbringi here? If Endor, then don't I have egg on my face? And of course, conceeded. It is unrealistic that the entire fleet was reduced to XO's. So time for me to eat some humble pie. Go on. say it. I'm an idiot.

Yeah, I don't know where you got the idea this was about Bilbringi. The issue is that Pelleaon's retreat order at Endor was illegal and improper, and that issue was created by Zahn in HttE - so this hand-wringing and blaming of it on EU authors later is simply incorrect. Not to mention, in his zeal to portray Thrawn as all-knowing and all-capable, he routinely has Thrawn go beyond what he ought to be doing (being Supreme Commander, by making strategic plans, issuing orders, administrating, etc.) and commanding task forces directly and even interfering in the command of his flag captain directly (the reason your flagship has its own captain is so the admiral does not have to split his time also running the ship). It is Zahn's writing of Thrawn that reduced Pelleaon to a glorified Officer of the Deck; its no one else's fault.

Thanks Publius.

Tiriol wrote: Happily enough for you, Mr. Publius, Daala would have been unable to achieve her logistical and administrative success without outside help (curiously, Vice Admiral Pellaeon). The two discussed during the events of the Darksaber Crisis how Daala felt bored and indifferent (even hostile) to the many administrative duties she had gathered, especially to the fine details, something Pellaeon had to bring to her attention. Daala apparently possessed the ferocity and aggressiveness to take on the warlords themselves and the charisma and oratory ability to hearten the leftovers of the Imperial war machine, but otherwise Pellaeon had to remind his Supreme Commander of the necessities of logistics. This, in turn, supports Pellaeon as a man of administration rather than a master tactician.

I believe that Pellaeon is regarded a good commander the same way Marshall was regarded as a good commander. The ability to plan and support his command properly.

PainRack wrote:

Tiriol wrote: Happily enough for you, Mr. Publius, Daala would have been unable to achieve her logistical and administrative success without outside help (curiously, Vice Admiral Pellaeon). The two discussed during the events of the Darksaber Crisis how Daala felt bored and indifferent (even hostile) to the many administrative duties she had gathered, especially to the fine details, something Pellaeon had to bring to her attention. Daala apparently possessed the ferocity and aggressiveness to take on the warlords themselves and the charisma and oratory ability to hearten the leftovers of the Imperial war machine, but otherwise Pellaeon had to remind his Supreme Commander of the necessities of logistics. This, in turn, supports Pellaeon as a man of administration rather than a master tactician.

I believe that Pellaeon is regarded a good commander the same way Marshall was regarded as a good commander. The ability to plan and support his command properly.

Yeah, he was chief of staff; Pelleaon has commanded field forces.

I've pretty much decided to ignore everything after the very first Zahn trilogy. It just blows chunks, and the "Fandalorians" ( ) that yuk it up are as bad as the rabid Trektards.

Alexian Cale wrote:Well, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but Pellaeon was one of my absolute favorite characters. A total-hard ass. He's ancient and just as hard to kill as any Skywalker, Boba Fett, or reborn Emperor... though that's obviously changed now.

You might be in the minority, but I appreciated Pellaeon quite a great deal for being so amazingly normal a character. In a galaxy where the average main character is either Force-wielding, a genius, insane, exceptionally good-looking or some combination of all of those, Pellaeon was just a fairly normal man who rose through the military because he was good at what he did. Not brilliant, just better-than-average with a little bit of luck on his side sometimes.

And here I was waiting for a bit where the 90-something old fella actually got to retire. Such a shame to see him go.

Although, judging by the rest of this thread, that sentiment doesn't seem to be shared by all.

Um, does NO ONE remember the part in the NJO where palleon commanded a successful defense of a planet vs. a far stronger vong fleet, with only one anti-vong weapon directly involved in the battle, while the NR forces at coruscant lost with better odds and another anti-vong weapon? I also liked palleon, and i must say, it indicates a truly bad tactical situation when an admiral obeys a star destroyer XO. There was, in fact, an admiral who obeyed the retreat order. He also did reasonably well defending bastion against the vong in a suprise attack, although it's offscreen until well after the vong crushed the defenses with grutchins.

(name here) wrote:Um, does NO ONE remember the part in the NJO where palleon commanded a successful defense of a planet vs. a far stronger vong fleet, with only one anti-vong weapon directly involved in the battle, while the NR forces at coruscant lost with better odds and another anti-vong weapon?

That the New Republic was shown to be outstandingly inept in most matters of military or security nature through its brief history is a fact I think most will agree upon. But how exactly does being better than the chauvinist incompetent Admiral Sovv (the senior NR Navy commander at Coruscant) show Pellaeon to be a brilliant leader?

For that matter, the Vong were nearly as incompetent as their adversaries. The one tactic they seem to have known was brute force assault, coupled with a little treachery when applicable.

Don't forget general Garm Bel Ibis wound up in command of a good portion of the coruscant defense, but still lost. and the coruscant defense force was far more experianced at fighting the YV.

(name here) wrote:Don't forget general Garm Bel Ibis wound up in command of a good portion of the coruscant defense, but still lost. and the coruscant defense force was far more experianced at fighting the YV.

My impression was that his force was relatively small and mostly cobbled together from defectors from the other fleet groups. They were woefully outnumbered and IIRC badly placed to counter the Vong advance. The battle was essentially lost the moment NR Command heard of the refugee ship screen and Admiral Sovv gave the hold-fire order.

The Battle of Coruscant is perhaps the greatest display of the utter failure that was the New Republic. There was essentially no plan for the capital's defense for the battle, in which Lah's fleet essentially moved as a single, gigantic mass. Sovv divided the task force into three sections, Wedge's force completely flanked the Vong force and harassed them from the rear (never pressing to destroy them), while Kre'fey made long-range attacks, while Bel Iblis was forced to backpedal until he was pressed against the planet.

When most of Kre'fey's force defected to Bel Iblis, he performed a marvel of leadership by succesfully fighting his way straight through the Vong fleet and out the other end.

It is quite possible that Sovv's battle plan was the single most pathetic display of strategy in SW history.

TC Pilot wrote:The Battle of Coruscant is perhaps the greatest display of the utter failure that was the New Republic. There was essentially no plan for the capital's defense for the battle, in which Lah's fleet essentially moved as a single, gigantic mass. Sovv divided the task force into three sections, Wedge's force completely flanked the Vong force and harassed them from the rear (never pressing to destroy them), while Kre'fey made long-range attacks, while Bel Iblis was forced to backpedal until he was pressed against the planet.

When most of Kre'fey's force defected to Bel Iblis, he performed a marvel of leadership by succesfully fighting his way straight through the Vong fleet and out the other end.

It is quite possible that Sovv's battle plan was the single most pathetic display of strategy in SW history.

Well, IIRC the intention was to catch them between the fleets and destroy them by superior firepower before they entered the system proper, a plan that nearly worked till Sovv revoked the permission to fire. So they were not quite as inept as that in planning in that particular instance (although it was moronical indeed not to maintain the barest semblance of a contingency plan per standard military procedure). Sovv's main failing was his idiosyncracy and utter inability to adapt to new factors.

That such an individual became Supreme Commander when much-senior and in capability vastly superior officers such as Garm Bel Iblis were around is of course another matter. (Was this perhaps some kind of "Affirmative Action" to show that the New Republic was not humanocentric? I cannot think of a better reason, and given earlier NR history of this, I would not be surprised.) And the fact that such an obviously insane order was obeyed by most of the fleet despite being counter-manded by the commander in chief, as well as the general breakdown of military discipline, is IMO a much better show of how supremely incompetent the NR truly was.

Or perhaps that was just their Jedi-influenced ultra-passive mindset. Luke summed it up pretty well in Star by Star, thinking something to the effect that it would have been worse for the Republic to fire upon its own citizens in the refugee ships than to let Coruscant fall. Yeah, right. Kill trillions of beings rather than tens (hundreds?) of thousands and be satisfied that at least you did not pull the trigger so it was not your fault... That kind of morality teachings is one of the prime reasons that I have come to despise the Jedi.

Darth Hoth wrote: That such an individual became Supreme Commander when much-senior and in capability vastly superior officers such as Garm Bel Iblis were around is of course another matter. (Was this perhaps some kind of "Affirmative Action" to show that the New Republic was not humanocentric? I cannot think of a better reason, and given earlier NR history of this, I would not be surprised.) And the fact that such an obviously insane order was obeyed by most of the fleet despite being counter-manded by the commander in chief, as well as the general breakdown of military discipline, is IMO a much better show of how supremely incompetent the NR truly was.

Was Garm still in the service? I was under the impression that he had semi-retired.

PainRack wrote:Was Garm still in the service? I was under the impression that he had semi-retired.

Now that you mention it, I do think I recall reading something to that effect, although it was not all that clear. However, there were still commanders greater in both seniority and competence, such as Etahn A'baht and Keyan Farlander, in the Navy, so the point still stands.

Plus, isn't Grand Admiral Grant still knocking around somewhere under house arrest?

We have not heard of his death, so I guess we would have to assume he is still alive. However, I cannot blame the Rebels for not placing a former top commander of their most bitter enemies in charge of their military. (Why they did so with Pellaeon a few years later I still find hard to figure out, but then again the Rebels/New Republic/Galactic Alliance are neither the smartest nor the most consistent people around...)

(name here) wrote:Um, does NO ONE remember the part in the NJO where palleon commanded a successful defense of a planet vs. a far stronger vong fleet, with only one anti-vong weapon directly involved in the battle, while the NR forces at coruscant lost with better odds and another anti-vong weapon? I also liked palleon, and i must say, it indicates a truly bad tactical situation when an admiral obeys a star destroyer XO. There was, in fact, an admiral who obeyed the retreat order. He also did reasonably well defending bastion against the vong in a suprise attack, although it's offscreen until well after the vong crushed the defenses with grutchins.

Was that the battle that consisted of ONE YV fleet and a slightly retarded commander who had zero experience against the entire Braxant Sector Fleet? The battle that the Empire was losing badly untill Luke Skywalker turned up with information on how to adapt to Vong Biotech?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, I don't know where you got the idea this was about Bilbringi. The issue is that Pelleaon's retreat order at Endor was illegal and improper

Which it wasn't. The discussion over whether Pellaeon's retreat order was illegal comes down to one issue over the chain of command in the Imperial Navy. At Endor, the COC in the Imperial fleet moved from the Admiral of the fleet (Piett - killed) to Admiral Harrsk (incapacitated and vessel damaged) to the Captain of the Chimaera. This missed out other officers who were killed or unable to take command, such as those on board Executor or Grand Admiral Teshik (did not announce his presence or take command - the Eleemosynary had a damaged comms unit, which explains this).

After the CO of the Chimaera was killed, Pellaeon ordered a retreat. Whether we agree with this decision is another matter - the question is whether it was a legal order. To prove it was illegal, it is necessary to demonstrate that in the Imperial Navy (NOT the US Navy), the COC should have passed to the Captain of another ship, and not to Captain Pellaeon on the flagship. Until somebody proves this is the case with evidence, Pelleaon's order must be presumed legal.

As to whether it was the right decision, the Imperial Fleet was in tatters by the time Pellaeon took command. Command had been passed from ship to ship in a fleet which could not even coordinate it's efforts properly after the destruction of it's communications hub and the sudden end of the battle meditation of Grand Admiral Declann, not to mention the loss of the DSII and the Executor. Some have suggested that the Imperial fleet had overwhelming numbers and could have easily crushed the Alliance if they had stayed, but given the amount of sources on NR vessels which 'fought at Endor' (apparently even including 'Corellian battleships') and the loss of coherency and effectiveness of the Imperial fleet I doubt this was truly the case. Even a force with greater numbers can fail to perform as expected if their morale is destroyed and their ability to fight as a coherent force is lost.

I believe it was the correct decision to retreat, regroup and await reinforcements - it was, after all, Admiral Harrsk who prevented this from occurring by taking command from Pellaeon after his recovery and swiftly running off to become a warlord, causing a breakdown of command and the disperal of the fleet.

What about Admiral Prittick? Or Grand Admiral Oswald Teshik, both of whom were part of the fleet, and who outranked Pellaeon quite considerably?