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Let's review Stas' evidence for a communist TOS Federation.

They don't use hard currency anymore. This does not prove anything. Hard currency is nearly obsolete in real life with most purchasing being done with credit or debit cards, stock purchases done with electronic transfers, etc. Hell we've already agreed that a currency-less system obviously makes far more sense just because its a space-faring civilization. As such this says nothing about what kind of economy the Federation has.

Paris talked about a "new world economy" that did away with money and Fort Knox was turned into a museum. Again, doesn't prove jack. People used similar terminology during the dot-com craze.

TNG is communist. We all agree that this is the case but it doesn't prove that TOS is communist any more than the 20th century Soviet Union proves 19th Russia was communist.

In short, Stas has nothing.

Darth Servo wrote:This does not prove anything. Hard currency is nearly obsolete in real life with most purchasing being done with credit or debit cards, stock purchases done with electronic transfers, etc.

Holy shit, you think I didn't guess or what?

In fact, they were already using credits in the XXI century, so what is the change Paris was talking about? How the fuck did the gold reserve get totally worthless? Obviously the type or scale of economy must have changed.

Darth Servo wrote:People used similar terminology during the dot-com craze.

Except were we talking about such fundamental shifts as a total shift to command economy, it would've been noticed - and it would be far more noticeable than what Paris talked about - if as you insinuate he wasn't talking about the Federation economic structure.

As I said, transactions were alredy run in credits so no, this change should be a little more fucking fundamental than DOT fucking COM, get it?

And since when did dot com abolish the gold reserve, please do tell. I'd love to hear how it made Fort Knox a museum filled with useless material.

Darth Servo wrote:And you apparently missed the bit about the miners NEGOTIATING PRICE.

So what? As I said, if some services or industries were not nationalized, that would be normal.

Let me ask you something: do you believe the Federation just turned communist overnight? Do you believe a command economy of such scale is established without some intermediate steps?

Darth Servo wrote:20th century Soviet Union proves 19th Russia was communist

You are shooting yourself in the foot here. The XIX-XX century change was such a great upheaval that totally redesigned the society and economy, from a capitalist one to a command one. It was known as, um, "Great October Revolution" and every god damn schoolkid knew it.

And now Paris recalls the date of some unimportant economic change - no change at all, in fact, since United Earth already used credits, so why did Fort fucking Knox become obsolete, tell me? But he misses a total fucking revolution between 23 and 24 centuries? That's preposterous

And "inside and outside of Federation"? During the NEP period you could have local traders, small capitalists and lots of stuff traded in the USSR. Later it vanished, and capitalist trade moved firmly out border. Was the USSR not a command economy during the NEP? Do you not realize that this is not a 100% either-or dilemma, but a proportion of command economy to possible relaxed monetary trade?

Stas Bush wrote:

Darth Servo wrote:This does not prove anything. Hard currency is nearly obsolete in real life with most purchasing being done with credit or debit cards, stock purchases done with electronic transfers, etc.

Holy shit, you think I didn't guess or what?

You're using such a change in Star Trek as "proof" of communism in TOS, so yes, the logical conclusion is you're so retarded you didn't.

In fact, they were already using credits in the XXI century, so what is the change Paris was talking about? How the fuck did the gold reserve get totally worthless?

Don't know, since gold is clearly valuable in the 24th century.

Obviously the type or scale of economy must have changed.

Sure, but to insist that said change was to communism is NOT warranted.

Darth Servo wrote:People used similar terminology during the dot-com craze.

Except were we talking about such fundamental shifts as a total shift to command economy, it would've been noticed - and it would be far more noticeable than what Paris talked about - if as you insinuate he wasn't talking about the Federation economic structure.

Circular logic. Using your conclusion that this shift was to a command economy to justify itself. And who said Paris wasn't talking about economic structure. I'm simply pointing out that you have no evidence that said change was to a command economy. Some "big change" happened, yes. Was said "big change" to communism? What we DO see of TOS economics indicates no.

As I said, transactions were alredy run in credits so no, this change should be a little more fucking fundamental than DOT fucking COM, get it?

But to insist said change MUST have been to a communist society is completely unwarranted. How many times will you repeat this idiotic leap in logic?

And since when did dot com abolish the gold reserve, please do tell. I'd love to hear how it made Fort Knox a museum filled with useless material.

No one said it did. I'm simply pointing out that your evidence does not support your conclusion.

Darth Servo wrote:And you apparently missed the bit about the miners NEGOTIATING PRICE.

So what? As I said, if some services or industries were not nationalized, that would be normal.

Again, circular logic.

Let me ask you something: do you believe the Federation just turned communist overnight? Do you believe a command economy of such scale is established without some intermediate steps?

No, and nothing I have said could possibly warrant such a conclusion. Stop putting words in my mouth. There were about EIGHTY FUCKING YEARS between TOS and TNG you know. Thats hardly "overnight". But then you think the elimination of money and a new economy automatically means communism so...

But let me put things in perspective for you. You claim that the Federation started going communist in the second half of the 22nd century, yet approximately a century later, they're still making the "change over" in TOS? Even though it took far LESS time in the USSR, China or any other real communist regime? Tom Paris' famous "Big economic change of the 22nd century" took OVER A CENTURY; still trying to finish the job in the 23rd?

Darth Servo wrote:20th century Soviet Union proves 19th Russia was communist

You are shooting yourself in the foot here. The XIX-XX century change was such a great upheaval that totally redesigned the society and economy, from a capitalist one to a command one. It was known as, um, "Great October Revolution" and every god damn schoolkid knew it.

No, YOU'RE shooting yourself in the foot. The change to communism in Russia happened far FASTER than the 80 year maximum period in the Federation.

And now Paris recalls the date of some unimportant economic change - no change at all, in fact, since United Earth already used credits,

Who the fuck said it was unimportant? I've simply pointed out that you have no basis for claiming this economic change was the Federation going communist. That does NOT in any way imply that the change wasn't important at all fucktard.

so why did Fort fucking Knox become obsolete, tell me?

Why the hell should I answer questions that are NOT required for my theory? Just to shore up your giant non-sequitor?

But he misses a total fucking revolution between 23 and 24 centuries? That's preposterous

Who said he missed it? If an American student talks about the founding of the 13 colonies but doesn't mention the revolution against England, does that "prove" the student "missed" the revolution?

Wow, Paris didn't mention every major event in the history of the Federation in that conversation, therefore he "missed" them.

And "inside and outside of Federation"? During the NEP period you could have local traders, small capitalists and lots of stuff traded in the USSR. Later it vanished, and capitalist trade moved firmly out border. Was the USSR not a command economy during the NEP? Do you not realize that this is not a 100% either-or dilemma, but a proportion of command economy to possible relaxed monetary trade?

Red herring and putting words in my mouth again. I never made any claims of it needing to be 100%. I have simply pointed out that you don't have one shred of evidence supporting the idea that the TOS era was communist and your whining about "oh, so it must be 100% or nothing" doesn't change that point. What little evidence we DO have of TOS economics does NOT support a communist economy. But of course you'll just repeat your stupid circular logic of "you think its 100% or nothing" while still failing to prove your case that TOS was communist at all.

Darth Servo wrote:You're using such a change in Star Trek as "proof" of communism in TOS

Are you so dumb as to equate any command economy with "communism"? Sure, I said "communist", but I also noted the possibility:

Stas wrote:Why the same could not be true of the Federation as it shifted to socialism and later, communism?

And in the post you nitpicked I was even more clear:

Stas wrote:It's rather possible that TOS monetary exchanges are a leftover vestige: after all, transition to socialism is not momentary, and I believe transition to what looks like more or less complete communism isn't momentary either.

Look, sir, droids!

Darth Servo wrote:Don't know, since gold is clearly valuable in the 24th century.

Wait, look, the 24 century is communist. And how is that you "don't know"? Did you think they used U.S. Dollars or something?

Darth Servo wrote:Some "big change" happened, yes. Was said "big change" to communism? What we DO see of TOS economics indicates no.

Hahaha.
*looks at the NEP USSR*
Some big change happened, yes. Was that big change to communism? What we DO see of NEP economics, indicates no.

Darth Servo wrote:But then you think the elimination of money and a new economy automatically means communism so...

No, I mean a command economy, not "communism". Socialism is also a command economy. Not everything needs to be nationalized.

Darth Servo wrote:You claim that the Federation started going communist in the second half of the 22nd century, yet approximately a century later, they're still making the "change over" in TOS?

Do you realize that nationalizing an interstellar economy is not as easy as a small Earth economy?

Darth Servo wrote:Who said he missed it?

If "New World economy" was completely different in aims and goals from the communist economy of TNG, he'd be pretty fucking dumb not to mention a later reversal.

Darth Servo wrote:What little evidence we DO have of TOS economics does NOT support a communist economy.

Okay, let me ask you. What is TOS? A capitalist economy? Or a command economy underway to what you characterize as communism? That'd be socialism, exactly as I detailed in my first post.

I see you continue to engage in circular logic, using your CONCLUSION that TOS was this big "command economy" to justify itself. All based on turning Fort Knox into a museum and claims of not using "money" anymore which is nothing but a giant non-sequitor. Especially since we both know that complete elimination of some kind of accounting unit is impossible.

You don't have one shred of hard evidence that TOS has this big command economy. Hello!!! TOS was made in the 1960s, cold war, when "command economies" as you put them (both socialism and communism) were "teh 3v!1"

Darth Servo wrote:I see you continue to engage in circular logic, using your CONCLUSION that TOS was this big "command economy" to justify itself.

"Conclusion"? It's simply more rational to assume that Star Trek adopted a command economy gradually with the beginnings of that ideology set in the 22nd century and the New World economy concept, as opposed to having some sort of revolution pre-TNG which no one knows about, no one ever mentions, and no one cares.

What makes sense, Servo, to assume the USSR's command economy ways were set with it's doctrine in 1917 - despite it not immediately nationalizing everything, with still existing capitalists, inner trade and profitmaking - or that it was a capitalist economy until 1929 where the great revolution made it communist?

I thought that "gradual transformation" from a mere command economy into a fully fledged communist economy is not a concept too hard to grasp.

What is your scenario then? A fully market economy in TOS? "The great unknown revolution"? "New World economy" being totally unrelated to the command economy aspirations of the UFP later? And obsoletion of gold and UE currency in the 22nd century is a dotcom phenomena?

Accepting that TOS was a NEP-style transitionary socialist period where steps from capitalism were made, but monetary exchange still remained looks more rational than inventing extraneous entities like the 22nd century dotcom something and the great unknown communist revolution pre-TNG. Why do we need those entities? Is a transitionary period, with a general direction to communism, which is expressed in abolition of prior currency and devaluation of the gold standard, a less reasonable explanation than your ones?

Even under my view of TOS not being a command economy, you still have EIGHTY FUCKING YEARS to implement it by the time of TNG so your insistence of "having some sort of revolution pre-TNG which no one knows about, no one ever mentions, and no one cares" under my scheme is bullshit.

Even under my view of TOS not being a command economy, you still have EIGHTY FUCKING YEARS to implement it by the time of TNG

Are you suggesting that they just didn't notice a gradual change into a command economy? And did they just start implementing a 180-degree turn into a command economy conveniently right after TOS and completed it exactly 80 years after? Is there any reason why that scenario would be preferential to the NEP scenario?

And it's not just a revolution; why should the aforementioned New Age economy not be the NEP scenario, but a capitalistic dotcom (which also renders gold reserves unnecessary somehow and gets praised?)? In short, why should we assume TOS has a fully fledged capitalist economy instead of simply a less extensive command economy with remainder elements of monetary operations and capitalism?

"exactly 80 years"? You've caught the husker jay disease of trying to say an upper limit is an exact figure.

180 degree turn around? Now who's saying its all black and white?

Darth Servo wrote:"exactly 80 years"? You've caught the husker jay disease of trying to say an upper limit is an exact figure.

That's the upper limit. And the more condensed the years go, the more revolutionary is the change.

Darth Servo wrote:180 degree turn around? Now who's saying its all black and white?

I'm not.

I was asking you why it is more reasonable to assume that TOS is a market economy as opposed to a socialist command economy with few remaining markets and capitalistic institutions - kinda like the NEP in USSR - and why it is more reasonable to assume that New Age economy is not an early form of socialism in the UFP, but a capitalist dotcom-type phenomena which also somehow renders gold reserves worthless, and is completely unrelated to the later transition to a yet newer, communist type economy from TOS to TNG.

In short, I was asking why your scenario is more reasonable than mine; or why mine is less reasonable than yours?

And could you please clarify what your position on TOS economic structure is - I've already clarified mine.

Stas Bush wrote:I was asking you why it is more reasonable to assume that TOS is a market economy as opposed to a socialist command economy with few remaining markets and capitalistic institutions - kinda like the NEP in USSR - and why it is more reasonable to assume that New Age economy is not an early form of socialism in the UFP, but a capitalist dotcom-type phenomena which also somehow renders gold reserves worthless, and is completely unrelated to the later transition to a yet newer, communist type economy from TOS to TNG.

In short, I was asking why your scenario is more reasonable than mine; or why mine is less reasonable than yours?

Because there is ZERO EVIDENCE of a command economy in TOS.

Where are the people in TOS wondering what an investment portfolio is?

Where are the people in TOS saying profit motive is primitive and they've out-grown all that?

In those (as you call them) "remaining capitalist institutions" in TOS, why does no one berate those space miners, telling them to grow up and get with the program the way people in TNG talk trash about the Ferengi?

Why are there such OBVIOUS signs of a command economy in TNG but NOT TOS? Whether you like it or not, there ARE signs of a rather large change between TOS and TNG and your "TOS still had a few pockets of market economy but was still essentially a command one" doesn't cut it.

You go on and on about "why don't we hear about this alleged pre-TNG revolution like everyone talked in the USSR about their revolution" yet your "great new economic change of the 22nd century" was mentioned exactly once.

And you also appear to have acquired the trektard disease of treating dialog as a carefully crafted history documentary rather than an off-hand comment.

And could you please clarify what your position on TOS economic structure is - I've already clarified mine.

That they basically had more of a market economy, although the government probably had SOME influence over it, just like many nations do today.

There are at least 3 instances or evidence of the operation of market economics and zero instances or evidence of communistic economics in TOS. Where Picard showed his utter ignorance of investment banking ("The Neutral Zone") as you'd expect of the child of an ideologically socialist society, Capt. Kirk outlines to Bela Oxmyx and the assembled mob chiefs of Sigma Iota the idea of a profit-making syndicate ("A Piece Of The Action") as an alternative to their system of open gangsterism.

Servo wrote:In those (as you call them) "remaining capitalist institutions" in TOS, why does no one berate those space miners, telling them to grow up and get with the program the way people in TNG talk trash about the Ferengi?

Good argument. This actually points to market operations being the norm - at least, common enough to consider them normal. Conceded.

Darth Servo wrote: Paris talked about a "new world economy" that did away with money and Fort Knox was turned into a museum. Again, doesn't prove jack. People used similar terminology during the dot-com craze.

Would Paris's statement refer specifically to United Earth, or the UFP, by any chance?