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Surlethe wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:And really, you can't call the invasion of heaven anything else

I just know that we're going to end up building a stairway to heaven.

If a certain musical group shows up, I may break a rib laughing.

Ed.

So Dante was right and the ninth circle actually was full of traitors? That's funny, I'd have expected it to be full of people who were deemed the biggest escape risks. Putting traitors in the supermax level doesn't make much sense in this universe as this Hell isn't run as a place of punishment. Maybe it's an even evil has standards thing.

Darth Wong wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: Their skills are of rather limited use in a modern army. They're more useful for historical purposes than anything else. They still fought in the Napoleonic fashion, after all.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Teaching military history and motivational techniques. You'll find your esprit de'corps is probably a lot higher if Patton is teaching you personally. Just saying.

Not necessarily. I have to wonder about the classroom dynamic if General Lee is teaching and 20% of the students are black. How will Mr. Lee react to a bunch of uppity 21st century negroes who expect completely equal treatment?

That's a good point. Though I don't know anything about Lee's views of slavery in particular, I would think that having spent over a century as a slave/battery in constant torment as a 'lesser' race, he might decide that 'lesser' races aren't really lesser after all.

Of course, I'm an optimist when it comes to the nature of hell.

Junghalli wrote:So Dante was right and the ninth circle actually was full of traitors? That's funny, I'd have expected it to be full of people who were deemed the biggest escape risks. Putting traitors in the supermax level doesn't make much sense in this universe as this Hell isn't run as a place of punishment. Maybe it's an even evil has standards thing.

Or maybe just common sense on Satan's part?

Remember, he himself could be regarded as a traitor, betraying Yahweh. And I've noticed that traitors tend to be even more sensitive to the possibility that they themselves might in turn also be betrayed. Something of a double standard there, but that's the way of it.

So, having turned his own coat, Satan was perhaps even more despising of humans who'd done the same?

Yahweh would certainly be furious at the concept - perhaps that was one of the concessions made during talks between Satan and Yahweh.

Who can tell? Though we might find out in the future books.

Ed.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's a good point. Though I don't know anything about Lee's views of slavery in particular, I would think that having spent over a century as a slave/battery in constant torment as a 'lesser' race, he might decide that 'lesser' races aren't really lesser after all.

Of course, I'm an optimist when it comes to the nature of hell.

History's view on that depends on which historian you listen to. One of the letters we have from Lee's own hand uses language that can be interpreted in a number of ways, though many simply take it as Lee being a deeply religious man and believing that if the great men of the Bible owned slaves, then God had ordained slavery. And God would put an end to slavery if and when He chose to do so.

(See the wikipedia article on Lee for an excerpt of the letter, under the sub-heading of "Lee's views on slavery." Though it is Wikipedia, and should therefore be taken with a grain of salt.)

Of course, THIS Robert E. Lee will, by now, probably have a MUCH different view of Yahweh...

Ed.

Does that mean that McNamara escaped, or that he was in the process of being stuck in the ice when they found the spot?

It's good to see all the traitors there. My only regret is that some of them didn't get a chance to experience it before the humans liberated it, like Aldrich Ames.

Out of curiosity, which generals would probably be the quickest to adapt to modern technology and warfare? I'd love to see William T. Sherman leading a force to burn his way through Heaven, but he was a Civil War general, so meh.

“He was my friend.” Publius’s voice was loaded with grief.

“He was also a Marine.” Sergeant Voight looked down at the man who had saved his life. “You men, take him to the surface, with an honor guard.

Manly Tears have been shed.

Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't really understand. How would the demons know who the traitors are, considering the industrial nature of hell and the lack of attention they've paid to Earth?

EdBecerra wrote:

Surlethe wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:And really, you can't call the invasion of heaven anything else

I just know that we're going to end up building a stairway to heaven.

If a certain musical group shows up, I may break a rib laughing.

Ed.

or maybe we'll be knock-knock-knocking on(down) heaven's door.

Teebs wrote:Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't really understand. How would the demons know who the traitors are, considering the industrial nature of hell and the lack of attention they've paid to Earth?

They were worried about human workers attacking the traitorous humans.

Teebs wrote:Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't really understand. How would the demons know who the traitors are, considering the industrial nature of hell and the lack of attention they've paid to Earth?

That does raise a legitimate point. How were they so profoundly ignorant of the state of affairs on Earth when they've been doing stuff like following the career of a US Secretary of Defense? For instance, if they've been watching him closely they should have picked up on the existence of things like nuclear ballistic missiles.

“Thank thee friend. We can work now and bring help to these poor creatures. Where art thou going now?” The Quaker looked solemnly at the Army engineer.

"is thee" — Quaker 'plain speaking' is not merely the old "thou (art)/thee/thy" system. It has its own unique grammatical peculiarities.

“I fear thou art right friend. But we shall all do what we can.”

"thee is"

Junghalli wrote:

Teebs wrote:Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't really understand. How would the demons know who the traitors are, considering the industrial nature of hell and the lack of attention they've paid to Earth?

That does raise a legitimate point. How were they so profoundly ignorant of the state of affairs on Earth when they've been doing stuff like following the career of a US Secretary of Defense? For instance, if they've been watching him closely they should have picked up on the existence of things like nuclear ballistic missiles.

The demons can read minds, perhaps every now and then someone in Satan's court goes out and one of the things on the mind raping grocery list is to identify "traitors", they can't really grasp the details but they can establish a solid enough picture so that a place is reserved for the 'traitor' in the Ninth Circle.

So what probably happened was this demon (or demons) raped the minds of a number of tormented whom felt personally wronged by this 'Robert Strange McNamara' and so a very special place was set aside for him.

EdBecerra wrote:History's view on that depends on which historian you listen to. One of the letters we have from Lee's own hand uses language that can be interpreted in a number of ways, though many simply take it as Lee being a deeply religious man and believing that if the great men of the Bible owned slaves, then God had ordained slavery. And God would put an end to slavery if and when He chose to do so.

(See the wikipedia article on Lee for an excerpt of the letter, under the sub-heading of "Lee's views on slavery." Though it is Wikipedia, and should therefore be taken with a grain of salt.)

Of course, THIS Robert E. Lee will, by now, probably have a MUCH different view of Yahweh...

Ed.

One of the little known stories about Lee is that after he retired during the Civil War, he returned to his home town and went about the life of a gentlemen. During a Sunday service an ex-slave decided to attend and went forward to accept communion. There were no other black people at this church and the South being what it was back then nobody went forward with the man, with one glaring exception. Robert E. Lee.

I hate what the CSA stood for, in particular I hate the "trade/property rights" argument that is commonly trotted out as an excuse for their rebellion, but fair's fair. Lee wasn't racist, didn't particularly believe in slavery the way some Southerners did, but had a very strong states-first view of how the country should be run. Hell, he wasn't particularly loyal to the CSA, just Virginia. If Virginia had done the right thing from the beginning, Lee would have stayed an Army officer and gone on to quickly win the war for the North.

Stewart, just a nit, but 3,000 divisions? All mechanized? Dude, it costs roughly three billion a year to run a mechanized division in peace time, I don't even want to know what it costs during wartime. You're basically saying that the world's defense spending is going to jump at least nine-fold just to account for Earth's army. Holy fuck, man, that's a lot.

Something else that kinda bugs me. You have 125 corps, which means that each corp has 24 divisions. I doubt that a Corp level communications unit, even if it were brigade-sized, could deal with the information flood of 24 divisions during combat operations. Hell, I question if it could do it during peace time. 24 divisions is about as large a field army as the United States Army has ever assembled, to call that a Corp is a bit insane IMO.

Stuart...is it possible for you to focus more on the non-european/ american historical figures?

I mean come on, with so many people down there, it seems almost impossible that almost all of the major players down there happens to be euro/american figures.

If you need any help with other historical figures...I figure we can discuss with others first?

Having a strong focus on european/american figures certainly seems a little bit unbelievable at times.


In fact it might be possible for us to get less well known figures as compared to those well known ones.

Guardsman Bass wrote:Does that mean that McNamara escaped, or that he was in the process of being stuck in the ice when they found the spot?

He's not dead yet.

Fyrwulf wrote:I hate what the CSA stood for, in particular I hate the "trade/property rights" argument that is commonly trotted out as an excuse for their rebellion, but fair's fair. Lee wasn't racist, didn't particularly believe in slavery the way some Southerners did, but had a very strong states-first view of how the country should be run. Hell, he wasn't particularly loyal to the CSA, just Virginia. If Virginia had done the right thing from the beginning, Lee would have stayed an Army officer and gone on to quickly win the war for the North.

I'm not going to be an apologist for slavery, but I will note that Lee was a deeply religious man, one who felt that if the Bible says it's okay, then that was good enough for him. God had approved, who was Lee to question God's will?

And the old Testament DOES have firm laws/rules/religious restrictions as to how slaves are owned, how they're treated, et cetera. (which in and of itself is sort of ironic - the Jews had been slaves in Egypt, then Yahweh turns around and gives them rules that include how to own slaves, and how to treat them once you bought them...)

Exodus 21 mentions this, just off the top of my head. I'd have to do a search to find more. (I recall, years ago, an alternate history based on this, one where the Abolitionists turned the tables on the pro-slavery faction in Congress by - with perfectly straight faces! - insisting that slavery be governed by Biblical law, and the Southern states accepted this without examining it too closely. Missing both the bit about releasing all your slaves every seven years, and that all children born to a slave couple were free by birth, until it was far too late to do anything about it. Slavery became a financial burden that bankrupted the plantations, and did so in a legal and moral method that no Southerner could object to without appearing to object to the Holy Word itself. Nice trap there, no? Heh. The fine details in a contract... they'll get you every time.)

So I can see how it would be possible for General Lee to see slavery as permissible. Of course, when you read the Mosaic laws about slavery, they sound more like the modern regulations concerning the abuse of pets and livestock.

Now that Lee's seen the other side of that, I suspect he'll be a lot less accepting of the laws Yahweh's handed down.

Come to think of it, there's a lot of other gents from the CSA down there...

Ed.

I missed the previous debates regarding this, but why would McNamara be placed there?

From what I've been able to find on him it seems like he was an overglorified number cruncher in regards to military costs.

Robo Jesus wrote:I missed the previous debates regarding this, but why would McNamara be placed there?

From what I've been able to find on him it seems like he was an overglorified number cruncher in regards to military costs.

I think it's a reference to McNamara's tampering with reports both up and down in the White House.

To quote Wikipedia (possibly a biased source):

As the war expanded in Southeast Asia in 1964, the Johnson Administration was increasingly focused on the November presidential election, seeking to minimize America's growing and often covert involvement in Vietnam. Consequently, McNamara frequently failed to pass along the Joint Chiefs' comments or objections to administration policy, or misrepresented those views to the president. Following the retirement of Admiral George W. Anderson, Army General George Decker, and Air Force chief Curtis LeMay, the JCS became increasingly compliant to Johnson and McNamara's wishes. (H.R. McMaster, Dereliction of Duty, Harper Perennial, 1997.)

This sort of thing happened all too often throughout history, with people tampering with reports to their rulers in order to advance their own agendas.

Ed.

Fyrwulf wrote:

EdBecerra wrote:History's view on that depends on which historian you listen to. One of the letters we have from Lee's own hand uses language that can be interpreted in a number of ways, though many simply take it as Lee being a deeply religious man and believing that if the great men of the Bible owned slaves, then God had ordained slavery. And God would put an end to slavery if and when He chose to do so.

(See the wikipedia article on Lee for an excerpt of the letter, under the sub-heading of "Lee's views on slavery." Though it is Wikipedia, and should therefore be taken with a grain of salt.)

Of course, THIS Robert E. Lee will, by now, probably have a MUCH different view of Yahweh...

Ed.

One of the little known stories about Lee is that after he retired during the Civil War, he returned to his home town and went about the life of a gentlemen. During a Sunday service an ex-slave decided to attend and went forward to accept communion. There were no other black people at this church and the South being what it was back then nobody went forward with the man, with one glaring exception. Robert E. Lee.

I hate what the CSA stood for, in particular I hate the "trade/property rights" argument that is commonly trotted out as an excuse for their rebellion, but fair's fair. Lee wasn't racist, didn't particularly believe in slavery the way some Southerners did, but had a very strong states-first view of how the country should be run. Hell, he wasn't particularly loyal to the CSA, just Virginia. If Virginia had done the right thing from the beginning, Lee would have stayed an Army officer and gone on to quickly win the war for the North.

Correction: Lee was less racist than many Southerners. That doesn't mean he was not racist at all. One of the things we've seen in the twentieth century was that in its first half, most white people agreed that blacks should not be treated like animals. But until the 1960s, they were almost unanimous in believing that they should not be treated as the equals of white people either. I see no reason to believe that Lee was not just 20 years ahead of his time, but 100. Even Northerners from that era would probably have been outraged at the way modern blacks expect to be treated exactly the same as white people. Hell, roughly a third of the US population still has a problem with it.

EdBecerra wrote:

Robo Jesus wrote:I missed the previous debates regarding this, but why would McNamara be placed there?

Treason against the United States.

Cancelling B-70A
Dismantling Continental Air Defenses
Shell games with ABM -- reports found that it cost 4 dollars of offensive spending to overcome each dollar of defensive spending -- Strange simply arbitrarily reversed the numbers...

Zed Snardbody wrote:

Guardsman Bass wrote:Does that mean that McNamara escaped, or that he was in the process of being stuck in the ice when they found the spot?

He's not dead yet.

My mistake. Apparently he just won't give up the ghost - he's like 92 years old now.

EdBecerra wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:How old was Lee when he died? We should get all our old soldiers teaching at a war college somewhere, we'll need them for Operation Babel.

Their skills are of rather limited use in a modern army. They're more useful for historical purposes than anything else. They still fought in the Napoleonic fashion, after all.

And really, you can't call the invasion of heaven anything else

Indeed.

Actually, the American Civil War is often regarded by military experts world-wide (so it's not just us snorting crystal pride) as the first of the Modern wars.

Ahh, but Wellington was the first modern General

High speed transportation (steam trains), high speed communications (telegraph), aerial observation (balloons), early machine guns, early repeating rifles, trench warfare, attempts at barbed wire... despite Mr. Harrison's somewhat over-the-top American boosterism, he had a point with his "Stars & Stripes" trilogy. During the 1860's, America came closer to the mechanized sort of killing than any other nation did until WW1.

Are you not forgetting the Boer war and then, even more so the Russo-Japan war of 04-05 where conditions were exactly like the western front 14-18?

Of course, to be fair about it, the horrors of it caused us to back away and try to play at "noble warfare" using Native Americans as the targets, but that's something the rest of the world was also busy doing, with colonial forces around the planet.
Ed.

Except in the Phillipines, perhaps?

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Zed Snardbody wrote:

Guardsman Bass wrote:Does that mean that McNamara escaped, or that he was in the process of being stuck in the ice when they found the spot?

He's not dead yet.

My mistake. Apparently he just won't give up the ghost - he's like 92 years old now.

He knows where hes going and what he has to answer for.