So I started reading Dune

[NecronLord]

I've split the rest about Trantor at the request of the thread creator.

[Big Orange]

Ignoring Kevin J. Anderson's books, what did Frank Herbert intend for the Butlerian Jihad? It is carved in stone that no House or other significant agency should devise computer technology comparable to the human mind, the technically backward society is pathologically fearful of AIs and they depend on Mentats for complicated tasks. Although AIs may inevitably exist in some covert, sparing form much like the Atomics. They could be used in emergencies onboard Spacing Guild starships for example.

[PainRack]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but Frank Herbert would hardly be the first author to buy into a brain bug. He is primarily responsible for the "harsh environment=military badass" brainbug, though he did have the good sense to put in other deciding factors, like the religious fanaticism of the Fremen, their lives mirroring the discipline of a military unit, the decline of their enemies, and above all else, the hydraulic despotism of the Atreides Dynasty. He might have simply looked at some of the great butchers of the past, and underestimated the numbers required.

To be honest, his equivalent wasn't as stupid as Freehold. The Fremen excellent fieldcraft and survival skills, trials through combat did make for excellent soldiers......... in the context of Duneverse where major armed conflicts don't happen and hand to hand combat is the pinnacle of infantry battle.

The real problem was how on god earth did the Fremen manage to pull off such a high level of technology, industrial capabilities, agriculture and population base, have high levels of material comforts in sietch............. and kept it secret.

Ignoring Kevin J. Anderson's books, what did Frank Herbert intend for the Butlerian Jihad? It is carved in stone that no House or other significant agency should devise computer technology comparable to the human mind, the technically backward society is pathologically fearful of AIs and they depend on Mentats for complicated tasks. Although AIs may inevitably exist in some covert, sparing form much like the Atomics. They could be used in emergencies onboard Spacing Guild starships for example.

One should not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind....... Given some extracts from the appendix and Leto exploration of the past in Children of Dune, a probable scenario is this. Human societies have evolved and created a a highly technical and machine economy, in which AIs manage a good amount of the human economy and panders to the ruling elite without regard to the lower classes. However, disturbances in the social order, the idea that humans were now the "slaves" and managers to technology(the computer operator who was epousing Jihad) promoted a revolt to overturn and promote an "equitable" reform, cuasing a "Jihad".

Methinks the commandant "Man may not be replaced" suggests that its equivalent to union workers arguing against machines replacing their jobs. The managers like it as it cut down costs, the elite like it as it increase production and gives them more profits........ now imagine what happens when the Blue and White collar workers ALL get shafted and suffer as machines take over their jobs. To make matters worse, they're no longer taking orders from "human" bosses, but AIs instead..........

[Junghalli]

You know, one of the things I hate KJA and the Brian for is how they totally pissed away the opportunity to show how the society in Dune could evolve from the modern world. They had a perfect opportunity to do so in the Butlerian Jihad books, but no, they'd rather write popcorn fluff about the war against the Evil Robots and their Robot Mengele. One of the most fascinating unanswered questions about the universe, and they barely bother to address it.

God I so totally refuse to consider those books not being an alternate universe.

[K. A. Pital]

Come on, it's KJA. When he touches something, it's ruined for all time, and he did it to both Star Wars and Dune. It's best to ignore the existence of his novels, like we ignore the existence of Terminator 3.

[PainRack]

You know, one of the things I hate KJA and the Brian for is how they totally pissed away the opportunity to show how the society in Dune could evolve from the modern world. They had a perfect opportunity to do so in the Butlerian Jihad books, but no, they'd rather write popcorn fluff about the war against the Evil Robots and their Robot Mengele. One of the most fascinating unanswered questions about the universe, and they barely bother to address it.

God I so totally refuse to consider those books not being an alternate universe.

I mean seriously....... You guys read the Jihad books as well as others, right? I only managed to go through Atreides before I swore that I would never again read another KJA book ever.

Are the concepts simply those lifted from Herbert later sequels? Women wombs, BG wombs and spice, and the robots from the Golden Path time exploration that Siona underwent?
The Ixian revolution that Leto Atreides fought in and the womb spice was almost exactly what Chapterhouse Dune stated....... If so, it shouldn't had been some new tech, since the Teilaxu were already doing that.

[Samuel]

How could it evolve from the modern world? I can't think of people at the top ignoring the problem of restless workers. What would they do to fix it and why didn't that work- I can see most of the population on the dole and I can't see a big enough incentive they would have to change that.

[Junghalli]

<snip>

Don't forget one of the most obnoxious Mary Sues ever. And totally unbelievable moronic villains. "Hey guyz, I've just captured a major enemy scientist, what shall I do? Shall I return her to our homeworld and see how much information they can pump out of her? I know, I will torture her to death for kicks and piss away any information she could give us right here and now!"

[Traveller]

Are KJA's crappy Butlerian Jihad novels not just a big ret-con in order to milk more $$$ out of the franchise? The original novel never mentions killer robots with transplanted brains or anything even remotely like that. I always interpreted the Butlerian Jihad, based on my reading of the novel and the appendix in this manner.

Humanity did in the Duneverse's past, possess a machine-dependant civilization, (much as we do now). But Humanity had grown soft, decadent, and lived more or less empty lives, dependant on computers and other labor saveing devices to make there lives easy. The 'fundies' of that age, angered by this state of affairs, begin a 'crusade', and they use the word crusade, not war, or war or liberation or anything like that. I dont have my novel handy, but the quote I recall was along the lines of

"Two Generations of madness in which the God of Machine-Logic was overthrown". It says the 'God' of machine-logic, not 'Machine-Logic'. Thus it gives the impression FH presents the Butlerian Jihad not as a stupid war against giant robots with human brains stuck in them, but in essence, a luddite style, religously inspired destruction of all computer-based technology in order to prevent humanity from essentially becomeing little more than wards of there own creations. Not just the machines themselves, but it sought to elimate the underlying premise that allowed them to be built in the first place, thus the 'God of machine-logic' quote. It implies a mind-set about they also sought to eliminate. The Butlerian Jihad however, does not simply proscribe 'thinking machines', but a whole range of labor-saving devices are forbidden as well. As much as wouldnt care for a bunch of fundy fanatics breaking down my door and smashing up all my pron and taking away my self-programming microwave oven, I find that type of jihad a little more credible in principle than KJA's goofy storyline. Nothing in the orginal novel supports anything like what KJA dredged up. AFAIC, he more or less borrowed the Matrix's back-story and threw some Dune-related words into it to help generate Dune $$$'s

Additionally, the so called Alan Smithee version of David Lynch's movie, the montage sequence at the beginning of the film directly refers to the culture pre-Butlerian Jihad and gives a brief overview of the events that took place. Its interesting that the monologue says some men used machines to enslave humans, not machines but men. One could debate what is canon of course, but this presentation of the Jihad seems more faithful to the novel than KJA's material.

Can watch it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FUAQ-dAh0g

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

I highly recommend reading the Dune Encyclopedia first chance you get; it is out of print and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. But it is readily available on most file-sharing programs; even a P2P rookie could probably get a .pdf copy in a few hours.

I can say that the Dune Encyclopedia's accounts of the history recounted in KJA's and the ingrate son's books has more entertainment value in a few dozen pages for those specific entries than the two upstarts managed in six shoddy prequels, and their statement of the canon statue of the DE certainly conflicts with Frank Herbert's statements on the first page:

Here is a rich background (and foreground) for the Dune Chronicles, including scholarly bypaths and amusing sidelights. Some of the contributions are sure to arouse controversy, based as they are on questionable sources. Others round out long speculation. Specialists have had their field day here with problems geological, biological, astronomical, and mystical, with pronunciations, major biographies, histories and accounts of little-known figures. The range of topics is catholic: cf. from games for amusement to games of life and death (Cheops or Pyramid Chess to "The Assassins' Handbook.")

The history of the Financial Synod which spawned CHOAM gets its first airing in these pages. In fact, many secrets hidden in the Dune Chronicles are answered here.

How did Irulan first gain and then arouse the displeasure of Ghanima? Who was Jehanne Butler and why does the Butlerian Johand carry her name? What are the hidden origins of the Spacing Guild? Where did spice-trance navigational techniques develop? What was Leto II's private opinion of Holy Sister Quintinius Violet Chenoeh? Does Cheops have something in common with the three-body problem?

I must confess that I found it fascinating to re-enter here some of the sources on which the Chronicles are built. As the first "dune fan," I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold.

So all of this talk about the prequels and sequels being based on Frank Herbert's notes is obviously nonsense; Take, for example, this excerpt describing tactics used in the Butlerian Jihad used by the crusaders against their "enemies:"

For example, consider Transcom, a trading corporation lasting for almost seven thousand years: the all-but-overwhelming amounts of data processed in split seconds during hyperspatial travel led Transcom to direct irs ships from a central computer bank, Centrans, located on an artificial satellite, Xenophon. As a ship entered hyperspace, its destination vwas transmitted to Centrans via Holtzman Waves. During the ship's progress to pre-designated points en route, Centrans processed the information and prepared course corrections. When the ship reached the first "mail drop," it reentered normal space and received course updates from Centrans. The computer-bank simultaneously handled routing for Transcom's more-than-twelve-thousand ships; during its long history, various mercantile associations subscribed to Transcom's service- the Van Rijn combine, Asconel, Far Traveler Couriers, and many others. With a clear perception of the indispensibility of the communications satellites, the crusaders of the Jihad struck early at Xenophon and similar establishments. The result was immediate and final: the utter collapse of regular interstellar trade. Had Transcom(and companies like it) not been destroyed by the Jihad, there would have been no transportation vacuum for the Spacing Guild to fill.

Hmmmm... you mean the human race wasn't trying to free itself from giant robots, but was instead embarking on a crusade against billions of innocent people in a clear parallel to Paul's Jihad? For Frank Herbert to say what he said in the introduction while he sat on notes detailing a Butlerian Jihad and other such events that are far different from what his son and KJA crapped out makes no sense. In fact, by telling such a bald-faced lie, KJA and Brian Herbert are in fact branding Frank Herbert as such.

Frankly, if I was the writer of the Peter Berg's upcoming "Dune" movie, I would sneak in as many little snipes against the prequels as possible: show a portrait of Duke Leto's father on Caladan that clearly says "Minotauros Atreides" rather than Paulus. Have Gurney Halleck talk about how Duke Leto freed him personally in a raid on a slave market on Giedi Prime. Have Duncan Idaho refer to Caladan as his homeworld. The one thing that surprised me was that Mohian is indeed Jessica's mother, but of course the circumstances are far different and has nothing to do with the Baron being immensely fat.

The Dune Encyclopedia is written as an in-universe historical document; it was published in 15540 AG, which is sometime before "Heretics" and "Chapterhouse", and there is a subsection under Paul Atreides entry arguing that he had to have been a Fremen and could not possibly have been born of a Great House (for many reasons- the Fremen wouldn't follow an off-worlder being one of them) and arguments for the history we know to be true.

It makes me wonder if the old man and woman from the end of "Chapterhouse" were actually aliens (they sure as shit weren't "Omnius" and "Erasmus" as no such concepts existed in the DE; there were no Terminator-esque robots, giant insectoid robots, no cymeks, etc. The butlerian Jihad was described as being fought against people who used machines rather than machines themselves), because of an entry detailing the Crompton Ruins, which were found on the planet Crompton which at that point the Guild believed no human had ever set foot on. Humanity thought it had finally found proof of alien life in the universe, and it details for a bit the reactions to (it was later discovered to be constructed by Leto II, the God Emperor)the site and how humanity thought for a time it was not alone (and it mentions that detailed protocols were in place in case of alien contact). It makes me wonder if he was trying to set up something with that. But we'll never know, as the two pretenders have likely wiped their asses with Frank Herbert's real notes.

And one more amusing bit: this excerpt shows a Dune-universe perspective on WWII:

FAMILY ATOMICS, HISTORY OF.

INVENTION TO GREAT CONVENTION. The practice of maintaining stockpiles of atomic weapons begane when primitive nuclear weapons were invented on Old Terra on the eve of the Little Diaspora, by the "Raw Mentat," Einstein, who was working for House Washington. When Einstein succeeded in his attempts to construct these weapons, two of the first were used to settle a trade dispute with House Nippon. These weapons were of such a primitive nature that fewer than a million casualties were caused by the explosions- but one must remember that the entire empire at the time had only three billion subjects, all on one planet. The demonstration, though unremarkable by later standards, served two purposes: the destruction of two small cities and the threat of the destruction of others forced House Nippon to concede the lucrative Pacific trade routes to House Washington: and possession of the Empire's only atomic weapons gave House Washington the prestige and power it needed to displace House Windsor.

Naturally, the other Houses Major spared no expense in their own research and espionage efforts in an attempt to equalize their power with that of House Washington. Despite the best efforts of the counterespionage directorates of King George (the first Emperor of House Washington), the secret of how the construct atomic explosives was soon known to House Steel, which immediately began constructing a stockpile and secreting it throughout the House domains in Russia: thereafter, over the course of only thirty years, Houses Windsor (Londinium), Abraham(Jerusalem), Zedong (Khitai), De Gaulle (Zurich?) Ghandi (Indus), and Ul-Haq (Karachi all had built their own House stocks. It is interesting to note that, even this early in the development of atomics, the Houses Minor were also stockpiling atomics, even though, then as later, a stockpile of nuclear weapons was an expensive proposition.

The existence of stockpiles of nuclear weapons to adopt a new complexion in the Empire. Before, when a pretender's House attempted to seize power, the Imperial House would usually destroy the upstart House (as House WIndsor did when the pretender Hitler attempted to seize the throne in the decade immediately before the development of atomics) or else be displaced (as House WIndsor displaced House Bourbon three centuries before) but the advent of atomics made the total defeat off a House with a stockpile an impossible task, since it was inalterably in the power of any atomic armed House to destroy any other House. But the Houses soon realized that a House could not use its atomics on an enemy it could not identify, and wars began to be fought with economic power, terrorism and surrogates. From the first use of atomic weapons in warfare to the second was a span of three hundred years (after the Little Diaspora)

The first use of atomics is dated in the timeline as 14255 years before the Guild, so adding that to 1945 and 10,191 you get 26,591. So the first Dune novel takes place in 26,591 AD.

[Steel]

The first use of atomics is dated in the timeline as 14255 years before the Guild, so adding that to 1945 and 10,191 you get 26,591. So the first Dune novel takes place in 26,591 AD.

Very interesting stuff there.

However, when they moved the calendar system to the guild one do we know they kept the year to be the length of the earth year? Earth doesn't seem to be very prominent in the later ages.

[Bilbo]

The first use of atomics is dated in the timeline as 14255 years before the Guild, so adding that to 1945 and 10,191 you get 26,591. So the first Dune novel takes place in 26,591 AD.

Very interesting stuff there.

However, when they moved the calendar system to the guild one do we know they kept the year to be the length of the earth year? Earth doesn't seem to be very prominent in the later ages.

Does Earth even still exist? I mean I know the planet will still physically be there but is it habitable and ruled by a House? Or is it a ruined husk from warfare and exploitation of resources.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

I think the timeline said "Terra" was struck by a planetoid and the Imperial Seat was moved off planet- this is sometime in the next few hundred years. Then below it said for three years there was a "rescue" of treasures, meaning they were getting all the valuable artifacts from human history offworld. Then there's an entry saying Terra was re-seeded after that and I think set aside as a museum planet.

As for Steel's question- the Imperial calendar is detailed in another entry. I should check it out.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Ghetto edit:I found an online version of the timeline:

http://www.smirnov.demon.co.uk/arrakis/timeline.htm

This answers the question of Earth in the Dune series, but the way it was written (by a citizen of the 15th millenium AG) . I initially just glommed onto the "First use of atomics" bit to establish a year, but now it's obvious the Imperial year isn't the same length as our year:

19,000-16,500 Early civilizations on Terra.

16,500 Aleksandr creates FIRST EMPIRE.

16,400-16,000 ROMAN EMPIRE arises and conquers the known world, except for China, which resists until 14400.

15,800 Imperial Seat moved to Byzantium in retreat before provincial rebellions and minor jihads.

14,700-14,608 THE GREAT STRUGGLE: The Century Without an Emperor.

14,608 Discoveries in America allow Madrid to attain the status of the Imperial Seat.

14,512 BATTLE OF ENLICHANNEL. Seat of Empire moved from Madrid to London.

14,500-14,200 THE GOLDEN AGE OF INVENTION: Development of radio, television, atomics, rocketry, genetics, and the computer.

14,255 First atomics demonstrated in an intraprovincial war. Seat of Empire moved to Washington.

14,100-13,600 THE LITTLE DIASPORA: The solar system colonized, and the population of Terra is eventually outnumbered by 20 to 1.

13,402 Ceres gains the Imperial Seat after a planetoid strikes Terra.

13,402-13,399 THE RESCUE OF THE TREASURES from Terra.

13,360 Terra re-seeded and set aside (by Imperial edict) as a national park.

[Mayabird]

I thought it was pretty clear that Marty and Daniel (the old man and woman at the end of Chapterhouse) were super-Face Dancers that had become independent of their Tleilaxu masters and had perhaps become a major Scattering power of their own right (maybe part of the reason why the Honored Matres had to flee from wherever they came from). They basically say so, after all:

"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."
"Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it! If it weren't for them . . ."
"They're not gods, Daniel."
"Neither are we."
"I still think you let them escape."
"What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked.
"I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect, God Himself with a flowing beard?' "
Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."
"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and . . ."
"It's personas we take, Marty."
"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

Of course, there could be aliens involved as well, since IIRC there were hints that the sandworms and their ecology was not natural and that someone (or something, duh duh duuuuuh) had planted them there.

[andrewgpaul]

Ghetto edit:I found an online version of the timeline:

http://www.smirnov.demon.co.uk/arrakis/timeline.htm

This answers the question of Earth in the Dune series...

The Orange Catholic Bible was hashed out on Earth, too; it's mentioned in Appendix II: The Religion of Dune at the back of Dune (which also gives, indirectly, the number of planets in the Landsraad - religious riots in the time immetiately after the Jihad killed 80 million - 6,000 per planet, or 13,000 planets.

In addition, the Landsraad itself apparently predates the Jihad, despite what Pinky and the Brian wrote (the same appendix mentoins the Landraad has been meeting for 2,000 years by this point).