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All the auto pilot on the Kelvin was going to do was point in the right and direction and switch the engines on. It follows instructions that you give it. THat's a little different to the M5 which gave itself instructions. It determined tactics etc. It's entirely different to an autopilot.

erik_t wrote:20-odd years before TOS, a ship had the ability to engage an enemy autonomously with the autopilot (which failed and doomed elder Kirk). This seems to contradict TOS's The Ultimate Computer, where a computer that can autonomously run (if not maintain) the ship is revolutionary.

I don't think the crew manually aims the weapons in Star Trek- the ranges implied are generally too far for an individual to do so, at least in TOS. They probably select the target and let the computer do the rest.

Kuja wrote:So, you are a fucking moron. Are you seriously contending that Klingon ships can be blown up with one shot?

Not "blown up", you strawmandering peabrain - they aimed for the flimsy little stem of a neck between the bridge and the rest of the ship and knocked them out of commission. Without shields, the ships were cleaved in half and predictably so.

Only a complete fucking idiot would take that interpretation of events. "Vague" dialogue? It's only vague if you're a complete moron who can't make a simple inference.

And this is because... you said so, I see.

In fact, the first supervisor even asks Spock how Kirk managed to beat the exam, not cheat it.

How is that at all an invalid question? After all, he DID just beat it: he rescued the Maru, something that the scenario is supposed to render impossible. Your wrangling over one word is childish and frankly idiotic.

Because it does not conform to the interpretation of events that appear to be crucial to prevent you from flying into a lathering nerd rage over? It's not an iron-clad case and I'll never say it is, but the shock and bewilderment that Kirk had caused with the outcome of his test combined with the choice of words of the supervisor engenders a default assumption, a la the same Occam's Razor that you're about to hijack, that he was believed to have won it.

Furthermore, where was the helmsman's shock and confusion when Kirk suggested one torpedo apiece during the exercise? Star Trek is notoriously full of subordinates making skeptical faces for dramatic effect when their superior officers suggest unorthodox tactics without clear odds of success, and yet he simply blithely consented with a satisfied nod when Kirk ordered one torp apiece - perhaps because he was confident that Kirk intended for him to aim for the stems, the only way any such order makes sense?

Oh yes, and by the way:

Spare me the sniveling outrage

Fuck you, cuntrag. Can't take a few goddamn vulgar words? Welcome to SDN where if you say something completely fucking moronic, like you did, someone is allowed to call you on it.

Ah yes, the old "SDN is my outlet for me to shed my passive-aggressive whimpering and become a chisel-chinned debating Adonis at the first opportunity" chestnut. Forgive me if I do not cower in awe at your wishful thinking and impassioned squalling, but I don't ever recall the motto having been written with the intent to let nerds treat debates as potential opportunities to release pent-up testosterone at the first chance they think they can get away with it - in fact, there was a whole dialogue opened in the early days of the HoC about this same kind of attitude of "entitlement to rage".

If you care to continue thinking that I'm wilting under your acid tongue instead of rather just groaning at your impotent hair-trigger rage, then I guess you have the same prerogative to inject intent into me that you do into films.

You're obviously unfamiliar with something called Occam's Razor, or else you wouldn't be spouting this shithead theory of Klingon cruisers being blown up with one torp. Let me spell it out for you.

Either Kirk's cheat dropped the simulated ship's shields and made them absurdly easy to destroy, thus his easy sucess.

OR

Klingon battlecruisers are somehow massively inferior to their Federation counterparts - so much so that they can be destroyed with a SINGLE torpedo strike.

Hilarious! Occam's Razor somehow does not apply to the dialogue of characters or the evident flimsiness of the D-7's stems, but it does whenever you selectively want it to? See, were all other things equal, you might have a case with Occam's Razor there, but since the reaction of everyone around Kirk was NOT directed specifically at his obliteration of the Klingons, all things AREN'T equal.

Here's a hint, dumbass, the simpler solution is NOT the second one. Now put up some evidence other than whining about "vague" dialogue, or get the fuck off your goddamned high horse and concede.

What will you accept as "evidence"? Hijacking Occam's Razor so that it does not factor in character dialogue and facial reactions? Pouting and stamping my feet? An orchestrated thumping of wiry nerd chests as they all chant the SDN motto for suspiciously personal emotional ends while RedImperator looks on and sighs exasperatedly?

Crazedwraith wrote:All the auto pilot on the Kelvin was going to do was point in the right and direction and switch the engines on. It follows instructions that you give it. THat's a little different to the M5 which gave itself instructions. It determined tactics etc. It's entirely different to an autopilot.

Didn't he use the remaining active weapons to shoot down torpedos aimed at the shuttles? I thought he did.

erik_t wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:All the auto pilot on the Kelvin was going to do was point in the right and direction and switch the engines on. It follows instructions that you give it. THat's a little different to the M5 which gave itself instructions. It determined tactics etc. It's entirely different to an autopilot.

Didn't he use the remaining active weapons to shoot down torpedos aimed at the shuttles? I thought he did.

Yes, he did, but "shoot all moving targets that fail IFF check until depleted, then dead ahead" is still a shitload easier than what M5 did.

What did M5 do that was so damned impressive? Honest question; I have never actually seen The Ultimate Computer.

erik_t wrote:What did M5 do that was so damned impressive? Honest question; I have never actually seen The Ultimate Computer.

It was designed to do deep-space exploration with no crew present - navigation, scientific research, self-defence, the works. According to the sales pitch it had "human-level decision making skills".

Bounty wrote:

erik_t wrote:What did M5 do that was so damned impressive? Honest question; I have never actually seen The Ultimate Computer.

It was designed to do deep-space exploration with no crew present - navigation, scientific research, self-defence, the works. According to the sales pitch it had "human-level decision making skills".

lol, it had a probe guidance system. come back to me when it had an android neuro net.

Let me rephrase. What was so impressive from a combat standpoint? Wikipedia would have me believe that it was much more capable in the combat simulations than a manned ship. This shouldn't surprise anyone if there was an autopilot which seemed perfectly combat-capable a generation earlier.

In regards to the auto pilot on the Kelvin, I just figured Kirk Sr was going to punch in some maneuvers and instructions to auto target the missiles going for the shuttle craft and ram the Narrada.
I mean, fuck, don't we have auto targeting systems now on naval ships?

Havok wrote:In regards to the auto pilot on the Kelvin, I just figured Kirk Sr was going to punch in some maneuvers and instructions to auto target the missiles going for the shuttle craft and ram the Narrada.
I mean, fuck, don't we have auto targeting systems now on naval ships?

I'm with you. Tell the computer to take evasive maneuvers within the bounds of his determined trajectory. IE: hit the bastards and dodge what you can on the way.

Surely if Kirk truely beat the test legitimately there would be no question as to how he did it?

And I recall in an interview it was said that there would be a reference to Kirk cheating his last test. That's pretty much Word of God.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Anyone catch the dog that Scotty vaporized? It was Admiral Archer's beagle.

I flicked though the novelisation yesterday; the dog eventually rematerialises on the Enterprise, just after it leaves spacedock. No-one knows where it came from.

erik_t wrote:Let me rephrase. What was so impressive from a combat standpoint? Wikipedia would have me believe that it was much more capable in the combat simulations than a manned ship. This shouldn't surprise anyone if there was an autopilot which seemed perfectly combat-capable a generation earlier.

The M5 was capable of advanced tactical and strategic decision making. In the combat sim, it decided when to initiate combat, course and speed for best approach to its targets, prioritized targets, and actually fired the weapons. It decided when to press the attack and when to retreat. It was basically acting as both captain and crew for the ship.

Perhaps not an explicit difference but I think in TOS, McCoy is called Bones because its a nickname for Doctors (sawbones) whereas in the film we see its from McCoy complaining "The Wife took the whole damn planet; all I got is my bones"

Crazedwraith wrote:Perhaps not an explicit difference but I think in TOS, McCoy is called Bones because its a nickname for Doctors (sawbones) whereas in the film we see its from McCoy complaining "The Wife took the whole damn planet; all I got is my bones"

If that is the case, I definitely like the nST explanation better.

Ted C wrote:

TithonusSyndrome wrote:This is especially peculiar, considering that Kirk is able to defeat all the ships in the Kobayashi Maru simulation with one torpedo apiece once their shields fail. Either Starfleet intelligence on Klingon and Romulan ship strength is a little generous, or the Enterprise is tougher than a motherfucker.

Knowing that Kirk reprogrammed the simulation, I see no reason to assume that the effect of torpedos on the simulated Klingon battlecruisers has any bearing on their true toughness.

Also, the weapons officer seemed a little taken aback by the order, as if Kirk's confidence that "one should be enough" was crazy.

Jason L. Miles wrote:

Ted C wrote:

TithonusSyndrome wrote:This is especially peculiar, considering that Kirk is able to defeat all the ships in the Kobayashi Maru simulation with one torpedo apiece once their shields fail. Either Starfleet intelligence on Klingon and Romulan ship strength is a little generous, or the Enterprise is tougher than a motherfucker.

Knowing that Kirk reprogrammed the simulation, I see no reason to assume that the effect of torpedos on the simulated Klingon battlecruisers has any bearing on their true toughness.

Also, the weapons officer seemed a little taken aback by the order, as if Kirk's confidence that "one should be enough" was crazy.

I definitely don't remember that at all, and it doesn't seem consistent with how an unshielded D-7 carrying the Klingon Chancellor in TUC was blown wildly off course when it was struck at it's center of mass. The weapons officer aimed for the stems, and predictably, the stems couldn't handle the impact nearly as well as the CoM could.

TithonusSyndrome wrote:

Jason L. Miles wrote:

Ted C wrote:Knowing that Kirk reprogrammed the simulation, I see no reason to assume that the effect of torpedos on the simulated Klingon battlecruisers has any bearing on their true toughness.

Also, the weapons officer seemed a little taken aback by the order, as if Kirk's confidence that "one should be enough" was crazy.

I definitely don't remember that at all, and it doesn't seem consistent with how an unshielded D-7 carrying the Klingon Chancellor in TUC was blown wildly off course when it was struck at it's center of mass. The weapons officer aimed for the stems, and predictably, the stems couldn't handle the impact nearly as well as the CoM could.

That was my reading of it. But then, Kirk was acting as if he had lost his mind (from the perspective of the other cadets) the whole scene, so perhaps I'm seeing more than I should.

It seemed to me that the other Cadets knew something was up and were smiling along with him, especially the Cadet he told to only fire one torp to, to save ammunition.

I'm going to see it again soon. I will pay close attention to where the torps hit.

I remember them hitting the ventral surface of the main hull, which on the K'tinga means the underside of the reactor. But yeah, I'm going again tomorrow Hav, so I'll race you

Havok wrote:Maybe we can just agree that there are enough changes that Spock and Nero didn't just travel back in time, but they actually jumped timelines, and the one they are currently in is different from much further back than the Kelvin.

The idea that Jack Daniels, Budweiser, Nokia etc. survived a nuclear WWIII seems silly to me and one possible reason for their existence could be that WWIII never took place and humanity was able to progress faster than in the TOS timeline which would explain the size and design differences that are present even in the Kelvin.

I've been thinking about this, and maybe in this new time line Gary Seven was successful in preventing WWIII.

Another small tech difference:

in TOS and beyond, the shuttlebay was pressurized and shuttles were boarded by walking through the bay. In nuTrek, the shuttles (at least the ones on the Kelvin) dock ass-first with the side of the hangar and are accessed via a corridor running along the outside of the bay.

One thing I noticed was that, apparently, transporter ranges have increased significantly then in the series, where IIRC, you had to be in orbit, but now it is possible to transport between planets, at least according to dialog from Scotty.

So given the fact that physical objects can wreck the hull of the Enterprise, does that mean a simple slug shot at any federation ship is enough to destroy it?