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Samuel wrote:

Karmic Knight wrote:

Darksider wrote:The Jedi who had a baby with the Clone Commando was killed during order 66 when she stepped in between a lightsaber and a bunch of clones who were trying to murder Jedi.

What was her motivation, trying to stop the Jedi or the clones?

Stopping the Jedi. Clones are people too!

Oh God, this is too much. A couple years ago I would have been pissed. Now I can only shake my head and smile knowing I was smart enough to leave this shit behind.

You know...I gave up on the Star Wars EU about the time of the beginning of the Vong storyline. From what I see I did the right thing. Death Star might be worth picking up, but the last Star Wars books I picked up were the Stover Revenge of the Sith novelisation (a hardback edition for £1 new) and a used copy of Starfighters of Adumaar as it was the only X-Wing novel I was missing.

I've heard various opinions of the EU, what's the general view of the comics? I found the graphic novel Mara Jade:By the Emperors Hand decent, though it was obvious the artist had formerly drawn Judge Dredd in 2000AD some years back as the Imperial Officer partway through looked like a near duplicate of Dredd in some ways.

Allegiance was a good book by Zahn.

As for the comics, the legacy story arc is great.

Some of the NJO books are decent.

Star By Star is pretty good, and the arc's finale in The Unifying Force is suitably epic, since the main characters stop acting like fucking morons. Luke in particular stops pulling the "pacifist Jedi Master" shit and starts slicing up Vong right proper.

Thanas wrote: As for the comics, the legacy story arc is great.

See if you can borrow a couple, or read an issue in the store before you buy though, they are quite hit or miss with some people.

Dark Times is better :p

Darksider wrote:Some of the NJO books are decent.

Star By Star is pretty good, and the arc's finale in The Unifying Force is suitably epic, since the main characters stop acting like fucking morons. Luke in particular stops pulling the "pacifist Jedi Master" shit and starts slicing up Vong right proper.

Yes, the Shimmra/Luke throwdown is my favorite part of TUF.

But the majority of the NJO was average, with a couple of clunkers thrown in. I still love that era, but I acknowledge it's flaws, flaws which don't hold a candle to Traviss' bullshit...

Dooey Jo wrote:Perhaps this whole thing can be rationalised as psychotic delusions brought on by clone madness.

That's a good point, actually. Back in the Thrawn trilogy it was a big deal that Thrawn was churning out stable clones, because supposedly the Clone Wars had mad clones running around wreaking havoc. But has any of that actually happened in the PT-era books?

JME2 wrote:Yes, the Shimmra/Luke throwdown is my favorite part of TUF.

But the majority of the NJO was average, with a couple of clunkers thrown in. I still love that era, but I acknowledge it's flaws, flaws which don't hold a candle to Traviss' bullshit...

NJO was a microcosm of the EU at the time, with some real gems, some real turds, and a lot of forgettable mediocrity.

Darth Yoshi wrote: That's a good point, actually. Back in the Thrawn trilogy it was a big deal that Thrawn was churning out stable clones, because supposedly the Clone Wars had mad clones running around wreaking havoc. But has any of that actually happened in the PT-era books?

Basically, "clone madness" was the result of a clone being grown too quickly. The first clones made by the Kaminoans took ten years to fully mature and train, later clones from the Spaarti Cylinders and taught via Flash Learning took 1 year. The big breakthrough Thrawn made with the Ysalamiri allowed him to make fully mature clones in about three weeks.

Of course, those clones not bred on Kamino and Flash trained had horrible tactics and marksmanship thanks to Traviss. I can only speculate that this was done in order to preserve the legacy of her Commandalorian Gary Stus.

Samuel wrote:

Karmic Knight wrote:

Darksider wrote:The Jedi who had a baby with the Clone Commando was killed during order 66 when she stepped in between a lightsaber and a bunch of clones who were trying to murder Jedi.

What was her motivation, trying to stop the Jedi or the clones?

Stopping the Jedi. Clones are people too!

Oh, it gets better. The Jedi she was defending those uber l33t commandos from were Padawans fleeing from the "Night of Long Knives"-style executions at the Temple.

I know this is dogpiling, but Jesus Christ is this idiotic. Though of course, the sensible in-universe reading of that is just that there was one delusional, batshit insane Jedi bitch around at the time, much like you can explain away a lot of Traviss's other bullshit with her Marysue characters being ignorants and raving lunatics.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Of course, those clones not bred on Kamino and Flash trained had horrible tactics and marksmanship thanks to Traviss. I can only speculate that this was done in order to preserve the legacy of her Commandalorian Gary Stus.

Is there any unambiguous statement to that effect, or was it just one of her uber clones thinking so? If the latter, who cares what they believe?

It is also directly contradicted by numerous Zahn books as well as the SW:Empire comics. So there is plenty of in-universe evidence to dismiss it as non-canon. The weight of evidence is clearly against her.

Darth Hoth wrote:
Is there any unambiguous statement to that effect, or was it just one of her uber clones thinking so? If the latter, who cares what they believe?

It is an observation (from the book Order 66 IIRC) made by one of her characters during a battle where the flash clones apparently use bad tactics. I'm guessing that it is possible find instances to contradict this aside from what Thanas mentioned as well.

Darksider wrote:Some of the NJO books are decent.

Star By Star is pretty good, and the arc's finale in The Unifying Force is suitably epic, since the main characters stop acting like fucking morons. Luke in particular stops pulling the "pacifist Jedi Master" shit and starts slicing up Vong right proper.

Star By Star is stupid as shit. I read it expecting to like it based on previous claims made here about it being 'decent' as in your words. I hated it.

TUF bored the crap out of me. By about the middle of the book I finally lost patience with the turgid prose and began skipping whole paragraphs because they didn't really interest me. The NJO sucks.

The NJO was southbound from the word go and at least for me personally from the moment they killed Chewie for no other reason than having an OT character die (when the EU would have been served much better by getting rid of the Organa Solo brats once and for all. Preferably before they did anything beyond merely existing).
The Vong should realistically have been a complete and utter nonthreat even for the Zahn-inspired minimalist New Republic.

Batman wrote:The Vong should realistically have been a complete and utter nonthreat even for the Zahn-inspired minimalist New Republic.

I really can't get over how completely and utterly retarded the NR leadership was in the face of complete annihilation at the hands of (stupidly) evil invaders from another galaxy. I mean seriously, the Vong are presented as a caricature of Evil and it's so obvious, and yet it's like you have the most clueless dolts in charge who do absolutely nothing - even when the Vong are invading and butchering huge numbers of people.

I would take Zahn-inspired minimalism any day of the week over this shit. The EU went downhill with the NJO, and shit like Traviss is only the latest iteration of a familiar theme.

While there were undoubtely some elements of the decline in the NJO (By which I mean Anakin and Chewbacca's death), I honestly don't think that's were the rot really kicked in. I mean, some of the books were really awesome (Traitor, Final Prophecy, and The Unifying Force). Plus they were actually trying something new for a change rather then simply trying the same darn formula again and again, which given the declining sales might have been a pretty smart move on their part (not saying that they couldn't have planned it out better, they definately could have). Personally, if they had just left it at TUF (or fast forwarded a couple decades or centuries or even millenia,) then maybe the franchise wouldn't be in the pit it's currently in. Plus they were able to turn Jacen into a likable character rather then the weak willed pussy he was at the start of the series

They would have done better to make the Vong just an extra galactic invasion force with standard tech instead of organiwank, wage a full scale war and have the Jedi tip the balance and allow them to rise back up to their mythical stature and prominence.

Although I do see why they did the Vong the way they did... If they weren't 'cut off' from the Force, it would be completely unreasonable to think they wouldn't have a Jedi type soldier of their own. That of course could have been interesting in it's own right.

I bought a new post-NJO book that heavily features Luke Skywalker, but I'm afraid to read it for fear it will suck.

Err-why would they automatically have a Jedi type soldier of their own?

Why wouldn't they? Their population was high enough to carve out a portion of the galaxy as their own. If they had access to the Force, presumably there would be sensitives, who would have an advantage over non-sensitive soldiers. If they kept the Vong as space Vikings, then of course they'd try to breed more sensitives. With selective breeding, they'd eventually end up with an adept corps of some sort.

If they were planning to use the Vong as space vikings, they failed utterly - one of the reasons the vikings were so succesfull is that they managed to integrate local populations, use a great amount of foreign technologies and intermarriage with the locals.

Thanas wrote:If they were planning to use the Vong as space vikings, they failed utterly - one of the reasons the vikings were so succesfull is that they managed to integrate local populations, use a great amount of foreign technologies and intermarriage with the locals.

Yes, Thanas, we know you like history a lot. We get it.

Is the skywalker book called Abyss? If so it might be good, cause from what I've heard about it it seems quite good, Especially since Luke is apparently quite badass in it.

Thanas wrote:If they were planning to use the Vong as space vikings, they failed utterly - one of the reasons the vikings were so succesfull is that they managed to integrate local populations, use a great amount of foreign technologies and intermarriage with the locals.

Hollywood Space Vikings.

The NJO had some promise, but I think the biggest fault was that it was "Story arc by committee". Its kinda like trying to write a novel with a dozen different people writing a pargraph each via the "telephone" method. What you start with won't be the same thing you get out. Each author has a different viewpoint/opinion/agenda to bring to the thing.

Now, if each author is simply writing of a singular aspect in a "small scale" way that simply represents a piece fitting into the bigger picture of the story arc, this can work. It worked fairly well for the "classic" series as well as the Prequels especially the Clon eWars, and its worked in other settings like Warhammer 40K novels. At least, it works if the author is any good. But when you're trying to write a single, coherent, and LARGE story, then things get complicated and things can start falling apart because each Author will just write it his/her own way - and that's not guaranteed to mesh with the other writers.

In the case of the NJO it could have worked if they'd focused on one particular "style' - ie a "war story/military sci fi" series, or an adventure series, or a mystery, or politicla, or whatever. But in reality we got something that was a horrid, misshapen hybrid of different styles and none of them were developed enough to actually work. LEgacy of the Force had similar problems (chief being the Mandalorian sub-arc being shoehorned in, which should serve to fully emphasize the problem that the NJO faced as well.)

Now, other points also contributed. The handling of the Vong was silly. The "organicwanking" was bad, but that could have been forgiven mostly if the story arc and writing overall had been better, but it wasn't and so it emphasizes the problems. (especially in writing, the attempts at making up an "organic" analogue for EVERYTHING got pretty retarded.) The retarded handling of the NR again was also silly, but could have been forgiven if things had been handled better (IE a much bigger invasion fleet, much better development of the sabotage/infiltration/terrorist angle, etc.) But the real problem was the lack of any real coherency or depth or focus, and thats what pretty much killed the momentum of the series.

That said, there were good individual books in the series. We got a fabulous showing from Allston, we were introduced to Troy Denning (who I consider a good author even if he's gone the way of Zahn, who also still isnt bad as long as you keep him from Thrawn wank) and we were introduced to Luceno (who was perhaps the best of the bunch.) Though you could also argue we were introduced to Stover (who I didnt like IN the NJO, but did a better outside of it.). There was crap too, but then again most people (esp here) expect little else from the EU, so why bother commenting on it?

SW has shown that story arcs only work if you have one, or maybe at most two authors collaborating, and they keep the arcs fairly short. Otherwise SW fiction works better as single novels or "small-scope" depictions of the larger galaxy. (It probably also doesnt hurt to point out that "large scale" stuff would lead to that evil minimalism people so dearly hate.)

Stofsk wrote:

Thanas wrote:If they were planning to use the Vong as space vikings, they failed utterly - one of the reasons the vikings were so succesfull is that they managed to integrate local populations, use a great amount of foreign technologies and intermarriage with the locals.

Yes, Thanas, we know you like history a lot. We get it.

I think he is annoyed by the lack of competancy shown. If you are going to rip of historical groups, you should bother to figure out what made them capable of kicking the crap out of everyone else. It is like this essay-
http://gateway.alternatehistory.com/essays-set.html
if you want to make a reasonable evil empire you need enough "good" traits to insure that they are a threat. Of course, that lacks the pure evil nature that makes them easy to kill, but not all your opponents need to be pure evil in order to be worth fighting.