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I hate to be a QQ'ing Mage, but I get upset at seeing every other class solo quests because they have heals or damage mitigation that lasts more than a hit or two and I end up standing around looking for a group. For being the glass cannon damage dealer I notice that I get beat for damage by lesser geared Pally's and Rogues.

Melee are supposed to hit harder than ranged DPS.

I'd love to see an explanation for why, they get to stand in one spot and melee for a vast majority of the fights and it isn't as if a mage can do any damage while moving so that can't be the reason for the disparity in dps.

Norade wrote:I'd love to see an explanation for why, they get to stand in one spot and melee for a vast majority of the fights and it isn't as if a mage can do any damage while moving so that can't be the reason for the disparity in dps.

Magical abilities always start better versus Melee. Melee has to scale either somewhat with gear(Rogues/Paladins) or completely with gear(warriors). Thus Blizzard's insanity is that said melee start as shit and move up scaling with gear on a better level then ranged DPS.


Most fights are stand in one spot? Nearly every battle has melee moving either because of adds, some lovable mechanic that affects everyone, or because of some melee only bullshit.

Or better yet:

Naxx: One fight doesn't require movement. We call it Patchwerk.
Ulduar: One fight doesn't, another is a small chance. Every other fight is immense movement. Kologarn, and if lucky XT.
ToC: One fight requires no movement if the tanks set up correctly. Twin Valk'yrs.
ICC: Two fights. Deathbringer and Festergut(non heroic)

Yes, it hinders both, but ranged have the advantage of being able to utilize a circle wherein their abilites can affect the target. Melee get 8 yards and in most fights they are running in and out of it.

You do understand why the number 1 boot enchant is current Cat's Grace, a TBC enchant? It's because it allows more speed if you don't want to dump points into movement speed so you aren't losing thousands of DPS by movement alone.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Norade wrote:I'd love to see an explanation for why, they get to stand in one spot and melee for a vast majority of the fights and it isn't as if a mage can do any damage while moving so that can't be the reason for the disparity in dps.

Magical abilities always start betterversus Melee. Melee has to scale either somewhat with gear(Rogues/Paladins) or completely with gear(warriors). And bullshit on vast majority of the fights being non movement. Nearly every battle has melee moving either because of adds, some lovable mechanic that affects everyone, or because of some melee only bullshit.

Or better yet:

Naxx: One fight doesn't require movement.
Ulduar: One fight doesn't, another is a small chance. Every other fight is immense movement.
ToC: One fight requires no movement if the tanks set up correctly
ICC: Two fights.

Yes, it hinders both, but ranged have the advantage of being able to utilize a circle wherein their abilites can affect the target. Melee get 8 yards and in most fights they are running in and out of it.

You do understand why the number 1 boot enchant is current Cat's Grace, a TBC enchant? It's because it allows more speed if you don't want to dump points into movement speed so you aren't losing thousands of DPS by movement alone.

So Mages aren't a 100% gear dependent class too now? Because if we aren't I must be pressing my insanely hard 2 button rotation wrong to be bringing my dps down...

As for the fights, that might be bias on my part given what my guild has accomplished in ICC but the way I see it in the current end game raids that I have seen there are more melee easy fights than ranged easy fights.

Marrowgar: Ranged gets spike duty so melee stay on boss, nobody can easily dps in bonestorm so mages getting a few missiles off will hardly tip the scale in their favor.
Deathwhisper: Ranged have the advantage, but mages need to break rotation to decurse and cc where melee don't, we also get to run for deformed.
Airship: This is free loot and not even worth being called a boss.
Saurfang: Ranged and healers once again get to do the hard bits while melee just need to not accidentally hit a mob and draw agro.
Festergut: Melee stand still and don't get vomit, ranged get to run for spores and lose dps to throwing up randomly.
Rotface: Ranged and melee both need to move to avoid his slime spray, but melee can attack as he turns and ranged need to run and thus stop dps. Everybody stops dps when they need to kite a small slime.
Professor: Never downed him so I can't say much.
Prince Valanar: Ranged would have the advantage here as there is a lot of movement.
Blood Queen: Mostly a draw as both sides need to move at times and the fear stops all dps.

So please show me where the mage has such an easier time in the fights I described and how melee deserve to top the charts in both dps and damage done.

Norade wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Norade wrote:I'd love to see an explanation for why, they get to stand in one spot and melee for a vast majority of the fights and it isn't as if a mage can do any damage while moving so that can't be the reason for the disparity in dps.

Magical abilities always start betterversus Melee. Melee has to scale either somewhat with gear(Rogues/Paladins) or completely with gear(warriors). And bullshit on vast majority of the fights being non movement. Nearly every battle has melee moving either because of adds, some lovable mechanic that affects everyone, or because of some melee only bullshit.

Or better yet:

Naxx: One fight doesn't require movement.
Ulduar: One fight doesn't, another is a small chance. Every other fight is immense movement.
ToC: One fight requires no movement if the tanks set up correctly
ICC: Two fights.

Yes, it hinders both, but ranged have the advantage of being able to utilize a circle wherein their abilites can affect the target. Melee get 8 yards and in most fights they are running in and out of it.

You do understand why the number 1 boot enchant is current Cat's Grace, a TBC enchant? It's because it allows more speed if you don't want to dump points into movement speed so you aren't losing thousands of DPS by movement alone.

So Mages aren't a 100% gear dependent class too now? Because if we aren't I must be pressing my insanely hard 2 button rotation wrong to be bringing my dps down...

Melee has an ability that starts without the defining "Weapon Damage"? I'm sorry, Blizzard gave you at least something that isn't "If you have no weapon...you do less then shit.".

Their ideas of why Mages do not scale with gear like Melee. You require it, but you don't look at the 344 DPS and go "Shit...I hope this does at least 1/3 of that."

As for the fights, that might be bias on my part given what my guild has accomplished in ICC but the way I see it in the current end game raids that I have seen there are more melee easy fights than ranged easy fights.

Marrowgar: Ranged gets spike duty so melee stay on boss, nobody can easily dps in bonestorm so mages getting a few missiles off will hardly tip the scale in their favor.

And have to move around on the same phase the ranged should be on two sides of the room pelting away at the bitch. The entire whirlwind phase is free DPS except in heroic where an occasional Bone Spike has to be handled.

Deathwhisper: Ranged have the advantage, but mages need to break rotation to decurse and cc where melee don't, we also get to run for deformed.

Yeah, and melee has to do what again? Like complaining that you have a splinter where the other guy has a bullet hole.

Airship: This is free loot and not even worth being called a boss.

Range can do a shitload more then Melee waiting for tank and adds.

Saurfang: Ranged and healers once again get to do the hard bits while melee just need to not accidentally hit a mob and draw agro.

I did point out this is a melee fight. Simply because Melee stands there.

Festergut: Melee stand still and don't get vomit, ranged get to run for spores and lose dps to throwing up randomly.

You did notice I said...non heroic? Again, same issue.

Rotface: Ranged and melee both need to move to avoid his slime spray, but melee can attack as he turns and ranged need to run and thus stop dps. Everybody stops dps when they need to kite a small slime.

Uh...what do you think Melee does? We strafe so we aren't losing huge amounts of DPS because he is splattering towards you. When you get the slime at least ranged should be using instant attacks. Melee get fucked.

So please show me where the mage has such an easier time in the fights I described and how melee deserve to top the charts in both dps and damage done.

Strange that melee has to RUN IN AND OUT of their 8 yards, while ranged can at least do something. Melee have to literally use every closer they have to accomplish this and usually be BiS to compete with top mages on first kills. Later on? It's a matter of finesse and skill. Warriors, Rogues, Druids and Paladins suffer immensely if they aren't on their game exploiting a near perfect edge for running in and out. If your mages aren't in the high levels on the DPS, then maybe...just maybe there's something wrong there.

I'll concede having never done heroic ICC, though my server just got its first 25 LK kill this week so we're not exactly the best raid server around.

I've always viewed the base damage of a spell the same way as weapon damage. That's where you start, and it scales up from there with stats. So getting a better weapon is almost like getting a new spell rank with higher base damage. Casters get a solid starting "weapon" that doesn't scale as time goes on, but it's behavior is stable. Melee get new weapons all the time that scale with content, but the exact behavior seems to wander all over the map. I haven't even the foggiest idea how that would get fixed, or if that's even an accurate assessment of the situation.

A lot of these balance problems feel like leftovers from when what you did with a class was narrowly defined and soloing was an exception, but that's just me. I'm going to echo a previous comment and say I'm looking forward to Cataclysm making new, if not interesting, balance problems to complain about.

Norade wrote:I'll concede having never done heroic ICC, though my server just got its first 25 LK kill this week so we're not exactly the best raid server around.

I will give this, and I'm being honest.

Ranged mana users do get fucked in different ways. Namely...you need to stack basically a stat so...your bar moves faster. And Blizzard has never fixed more then a few coefficents.

As for ICC, it's a matter of tanks sitting correctly and ranged knowing where things move. If you think movement fight like Rotface suck? You will fucking HATE Professor Putricide. Not Heroic Prof, regular. Heroic is a fucking nightmare.

Broomstick wrote:Seriously, guys - you whine whine whine yet you all still play the game.

I'm a PvE player mostly, so not too worried about the arena stuff. And yes, in spite of its many flaws, I do still like & enjoy the game.

Ghost Rider wrote:Jesus fucking christ...I knew it was bad last season, but it's gotten worse? Well of course it does. Mixture of T10 and Arena and your guys have powers most of WoW's staff basically goes "IWIN" button.

Put it this way. Retadins have been nerfed because of lower level / skill BG & arenas. Of course Blizz are out of touch .

Norade wrote:<Snipped list of encounters>

All extra fun from a Ret point of view:

Marrowgar: As GR said, plus if you don't hit him for 15 secs (note, bonestorm lasts longer) your SoV stack falls off. You then need to spend 10-15 seconds restacking Seal of Vengeance before you can do proper DPS again. PS, no charge / intercept / sprint / death grip (!). Same issue with the Libram buff.

Deathwhisper: Ok if you can get your guild to leave you pewpewing the boss all day long. Death & Decay shouldn't be a big deal.

Airship: Yeah, whatever. Pass the loot and let's get moving.

Saurfang: Friendly, unless you have wings up and the adds spawn. More fool you TBH, enjoy the instagib.

Festergut: On 10m heroic it's okay if you're moving from one leg to the other well. Of course, if you have to run out with the spore, say goodbye to your SoV stacks.

Rotface: Getting the disease can cost you SoV stacks.

Professor: Switching to adds can cost you SoV stacks on the boss (nevermind you'll often have to swap seals) and they fall off every phase transition without fail, because Cloak of Shadows works on the tear gas but not Divine Shield (WTF anyway?).

Blood Princes: Retadins go in a corner and cry in this fight. Stupid amounts of movement unless your guild tanks are good enough to group the bosses up really close together. Yeah right.

Queenie: Air phases can cost you SoV stacks unless can smack her as she's flying up (in the middle of the fear, GL non-humans). Plus the usual running around from flames & the pack of the darkfallen.

Valithria: Whatever, just go Seal of Command and show off your cleavage .

Sindragosa: More stacks lost every air phase, plus during Phase 3 if you're unlucky with debuffs.

Lich King: Can't use SoV at all on Val'kyrs, so may as well not bother with it on Arthas either during that phase. Also all those phase transitions, getting inside Frostmourne, being grabbed by a Val'kyr, running from the expanding void zones or spirits (remember, no sprint to get back in quickly).

At least DKs and such can get their diseases back on in all of 2 GCDs. Of course as GR said just above, casters get screwed over in other ways (like haste scaling and lack of powerful instants when they have to move even a little compared to melee), but yeah. Still, I suppose it's a challenge at least .

Darmalus wrote:I've always viewed the base damage of a spell the same way as weapon damage. That's where you start, and it scales up from there with stats. So getting a better weapon is almost like getting a new spell rank with higher base damage. Casters get a solid starting "weapon" that doesn't scale as time goes on, but it's behavior is stable. Melee get new weapons all the time that scale with content, but the exact behavior seems to wander all over the map. I haven't even the foggiest idea how that would get fixed, or if that's even an accurate assessment of the situation.

Seems a fair analogy to me, but just goes to show what GR is talking about with how gear-dependent melee are vs casters.

Ghost Rider wrote:As for ICC, it's a matter of tanks sitting correctly and ranged knowing where things move. If you think movement fight like Rotface suck? You will fucking HATE Professor Putricide. Not Heroic Prof, regular. Heroic is a fucking nightmare.

One of the interesting things I was reading was that Professor isn't a bad fight in terms of mechanics so much as the sheer duration - it just goes on and on and... well you get the idea. Thoughts GR?

Teleros wrote:PS, no charge / intercept / sprint / death grip (!). Same issue with the Libram buff.

Just a little nitpick here, the only way Death Grip helps a Death Knight get into melee range during a boss fight is by drawing aggro. A vast majority of bosses are immune to the pull, so the ability only works as a taunt against them. As such, any Death Knight that uses it during a raid, unless they are tanking or pulling uncontrolled adds off of healers and ranged, is probably an idiot.

Teleros wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:As for ICC, it's a matter of tanks sitting correctly and ranged knowing where things move. If you think movement fight like Rotface suck? You will fucking HATE Professor Putricide. Not Heroic Prof, regular. Heroic is a fucking nightmare.

One of the interesting things I was reading was that Professor isn't a bad fight in terms of mechanics so much as the sheer duration - it just goes on and on and... well you get the idea. Thoughts GR?

Short answer: Kind of.

Long answer: The real problem is some of the saving mechanics of regular professor are now...just fucking harder. And this is not counting the new stuff.

So like Festergut, he has a shorter window of DPS error because the increase of hit points obviously, but the problems of DPS are compounded by the new addition of "You are marked to only attack this add!" as a phase change. Reason I say this makes it a shitload nastier? Easy to see, suddenly what your raid could kill without the slow is suddenly split in half and you have to choose which one is the real threat. A decent Abom usually has the slime for it, but it can get nasty given the second new mechanic.

Add also his new happy DoT. He applies a new minute long DoT that not only does some decent damage, it will jump to anyone within 3 yards. Nonetheless this fucking thing not only takes a raider out, the added joy is that you have to pass it on. So what do you do? You have it pass to another in 10-15 seconds depending on healers to get it onto another until it's used up. And it leaves a debuff that makes you take 300% more shadow damage. He applies this about once per phase...two if you're unlucky, so it can get really fucking hairy.

And remember...phase 3 he starts hitting the entire raid with shadow damage. So yeah. It's everything that is pissant about the original with a couple additions that are really fucking ugly.

In comparison? BQL is her same old self, thus being a joke for a heroic. And Sindragosa? Same boring self. You need more raid awareness because Unchained magic fucks your guys around you for 20 yards, and air phase is one shot death rather then "Guys, stop making the pallies heal you.". Sindragosa takes a bit more of a push from everyone because of unchained magic's newest gimmick, but a few wipes and you learn who to go "Dude, stop spamming.".

And to go without saying...Heroic LK? Jesus...I wonder how bad ass still his 10 man is. We are still grinding Professor, so maybe a week? But 25 man? I have no clue beyond what I've talked with a few friends on other high end guilds and their stories are basically "It's worse then you think.". More death flying around, more instant death, and basically requiring all 25 people not screwing around.

I'm a rogue, and I gotta say DPSing is pretty easy if you pay attention. Last week I had my slow weapon in my offhand and my fast weapon in my main on accident and I still did 9200 dps.

Of course, if you're the only rogue in a raid you can say goodbye to 8% of your total damage since there's nobody to trade tricks with. Other than that, its pretty awesome.

No opinions on pvp, though. I hate pvp.

Broomstick wrote:

Teleros wrote:Oh, and let's not forget the 0 Resilience everyone will have in Cata Season 1. "OMFGNERFRETQQ!!!!1!" in 3... 2... 1...

Everyone's resilience goes to 0? I'll actually have a frackin' chance in PvP again for awhile....

Seriously, guys - you whine whine whine yet you all still play the game. Obviously you must like something in there!

Everyone's resilience is unlikely to be 0 (unless they bring in the 'lol crafted gear' that they did with WOTLK) and if it is, you won't stand a chance unless you're in a raiding guild that clears most content in the first few weeks, and even then only if you're lucky.
Take for instance early WOTLK, was absolutely dominated by DKs/warriors/paladins that got Betrayer of Humanity and a few nice pve pieces, as well as classes like mages (who have enough escape mechanisms to survive on low resi). For most classes, early Cata pvp will involve:
a) dying in a cheapshot to a rogue
b) dying in the kidney shot to a rogue after you trinket the cheapshot
c) dying to a hunter before you even get in range
d) dying to the DK that deathgrips you in

I like raiding with friends, the people in my guild, i've known them close on 2 years now, i've been to guildmeets with them and gone out drinking. If they didn't make raiding fun, i'd likely not be playing anymore.

Jesus fucking christ...I knew it was bad last season, but it's gotten worse? Well of course it does. Mixture of T10 and Arena and your guys have powers most of WoW's staff basically goes "IWIN" button.

Oh yeah it's bad, if you're not a mage or overgearing them, you will die to a warrior pretty much as soon as they get MS on you and can bladestorm (barring defensive CDs). It's very annoying as a priest, to know that the moment I don't have Pain Suppression anymore, i'm dead meat if the warrior gets on me and I can't get away. Bladestorm is literally an IWIN button vs most casters and healers (that aren't frost mages)
And it is because of pve gear. Good luck winning against a warrior that has Shadow's Edge, DBW and Grim Toll (human warriors ftw). You're dead, you simply don't stand a chance.

Yeah, we let one of the other warriors tank LK on regular for the epic feel, but even then...it's funny how raid chat goes. Basically healing leader goes "No fucking around guys...warrior tank and he will get gibbed. And shup up about him being geared.".

It's hilarious to see the druid sitting there, accidently presses HP trinket or whatever...and still stand going "Sorry...wait...does it matter?".

And yeah, on LK I can blow out everyone but occasionaly the warlock. But he has to get lucky. Our Unholy DK needs a couple more lucky drops from heroic to be there, but he's getting there. The Arms complains he needs a faster Bladestorm cooldown though .

Warrior tanks get beaten around so hard, they're like the mana sponges of WOTLK that druids were in Cataclysm. It's even funnier when you pair them with a druid or paladin tank, because you can see the huge discrepancy between them.
How Blizzard still thinks warrior tanks are fine is completely beyond me, any high end raider can tell the difference between the tanks, the attention that has to be paid the moment you know a warrior is tanking the boss.



As for the fights, there is a slight melee bias (and by melee I can primarily warriors/dks/rogues, pallys and druids have the longest ramp up times in the game, and enhance shaman are bad for target switching too) primarily because they have essentially unlimited dps potential, as long as the mob is alive, they can keep dpsing. Casters are limited by mana, and the stat that increases dps (haste) is in fact also bad for casters, because it depletes that blue bar all the faster.

Warriors are really the most gear dependent class, saying any other class is more than them is ridiculous. The DPS difference between a warrior with good gear, and one that's just hit 80 is bordering on retarded. It's why warriors are always out of control towards the end of an expansion, because of the way they scale with weapon damage (primarily). Weapons are such a huge deal for a warrior - I still remember seeing the bids coming in for Betrayer of Humanity when it dropped, I think our Fury Warrior at the time paid close to 500 DKP for it. About the only class even close to that gear dependent (outside of tanks) is hunters, after their damage was shifted onto their ranged weapon.

Civil War Man wrote:

Teleros wrote:PS, no charge / intercept / sprint / death grip (!). Same issue with the Libram buff.

Just a little nitpick here, the only way Death Grip helps a Death Knight get into melee range during a boss fight is by drawing aggro. A vast majority of bosses are immune to the pull, so the ability only works as a taunt against them. As such, any Death Knight that uses it during a raid, unless they are tanking or pulling uncontrolled adds off of healers and ranged, is probably an idiot.

True, but I included it for the sake of completeness. We did most of ToGC on Monday (no 4th pally so didn't even try Anub'arak ), and god is it a pain when Icehowl punts you to other side of the room & your SoV stacks fall off.

In other news though, I've dumped Mining for Engineering. Rocket boots !

Teleros wrote:

Civil War Man wrote:

Teleros wrote:PS, no charge / intercept / sprint / death grip (!). Same issue with the Libram buff.

Just a little nitpick here, the only way Death Grip helps a Death Knight get into melee range during a boss fight is by drawing aggro. A vast majority of bosses are immune to the pull, so the ability only works as a taunt against them. As such, any Death Knight that uses it during a raid, unless they are tanking or pulling uncontrolled adds off of healers and ranged, is probably an idiot.

True, but I included it for the sake of completeness. We did most of ToGC on Monday (no 4th pally so didn't even try Anub'arak ), and god is it a pain when Icehowl punts you to other side of the room & your SoV stacks fall off.

In other news though, I've dumped Mining for Engineering. Rocket boots !

Saronite Bombs being off the GCD and Rocket boots being the best speed booster, as well as a couple other things? It makes Engineering actually a decent profession all things considered.

Minischoles wrote:

Broomstick wrote:

Teleros wrote:Oh, and let's not forget the 0 Resilience everyone will have in Cata Season 1. "OMFGNERFRETQQ!!!!1!" in 3... 2... 1...

Everyone's resilience goes to 0? I'll actually have a frackin' chance in PvP again for awhile....

Seriously, guys - you whine whine whine yet you all still play the game. Obviously you must like something in there!

Everyone's resilience is unlikely to be 0 (unless they bring in the 'lol crafted gear' that they did with WOTLK) and if it is, you won't stand a chance unless you're in a raiding guild that clears most content in the first few weeks, and even then only if you're lucky.
Take for instance early WOTLK, was absolutely dominated by DKs/warriors/paladins that got Betrayer of Humanity and a few nice pve pieces, as well as classes like mages (who have enough escape mechanisms to survive on low resi). For most classes, early Cata pvp will involve:
a) dying in a cheapshot to a rogue
b) dying in the kidney shot to a rogue after you trinket the cheapshot
c) dying to a hunter before you even get in range
d) dying to the DK that deathgrips you in

LOL, yeah. First season PvP is determined who can get the shiny epics from the last boss of a raid and deck out their DPSer to stunlock or just simply mow down said opponent.

Jesus fucking christ...I knew it was bad last season, but it's gotten worse? Well of course it does. Mixture of T10 and Arena and your guys have powers most of WoW's staff basically goes "IWIN" button.

Oh yeah it's bad, if you're not a mage or overgearing them, you will die to a warrior pretty much as soon as they get MS on you and can bladestorm (barring defensive CDs). It's very annoying as a priest, to know that the moment I don't have Pain Suppression anymore, i'm dead meat if the warrior gets on me and I can't get away. Bladestorm is literally an IWIN button vs most casters and healers (that aren't frost mages)
And it is because of pve gear. Good luck winning against a warrior that has Shadow's Edge, DBW and Grim Toll (human warriors ftw). You're dead, you simply don't stand a chance.

Yeah, I've seen friends with that set up or using Runestone and going "Hur hur...u lose!!!". Or really any combination. What I found funny about protect warriors is they were basically Fury/Arms geared...with a sword and board and certain talents. Yeah they did horrendous damage....because they were basically cutting through your armor like butter.

Yeah, we let one of the other warriors tank LK on regular for the epic feel, but even then...it's funny how raid chat goes. Basically healing leader goes "No fucking around guys...warrior tank and he will get gibbed. And shup up about him being geared.".

It's hilarious to see the druid sitting there, accidently presses HP trinket or whatever...and still stand going "Sorry...wait...does it matter?".

And yeah, on LK I can blow out everyone but occasionaly the warlock. But he has to get lucky. Our Unholy DK needs a couple more lucky drops from heroic to be there, but he's getting there. The Arms complains he needs a faster Bladestorm cooldown though .

Warrior tanks get beaten around so hard, they're like the mana sponges of WOTLK that druids were in Cataclysm. It's even funnier when you pair them with a druid or paladin tank, because you can see the huge discrepancy between them.
How Blizzard still thinks warrior tanks are fine is completely beyond me, any high end raider can tell the difference between the tanks, the attention that has to be paid the moment you know a warrior is tanking the boss.

Because there are so many of them!!!

I think Blizzard is just being a fucking obstinate bitch on this particular issue.

As for the fights, there is a slight melee bias (and by melee I can primarily warriors/dks/rogues, pallys and druids have the longest ramp up times in the game, and enhance shaman are bad for target switching too) primarily because they have essentially unlimited dps potential, as long as the mob is alive, they can keep dpsing. Casters are limited by mana, and the stat that increases dps (haste) is in fact also bad for casters, because it depletes that blue bar all the faster.

Yeah, it's what's silly about haste. Casters need it...but then again it makes them suck down everything faster, thus needing to stop and recover...to pray for replenishment...to blow through bar faster.

Warriors are really the most gear dependent class, saying any other class is more than them is ridiculous. The DPS difference between a warrior with good gear, and one that's just hit 80 is bordering on retarded. It's why warriors are always out of control towards the end of an expansion, because of the way they scale with weapon damage (primarily). Weapons are such a huge deal for a warrior - I still remember seeing the bids coming in for Betrayer of Humanity when it dropped, I think our Fury Warrior at the time paid close to 500 DKP for it. About the only class even close to that gear dependent (outside of tanks) is hunters, after their damage was shifted onto their ranged weapon.

Ugh...yeah. I remember wielding the crap epic crafted and a blue sword for so fucking long. And being usually around number 10 at BEST on DPS. Get Betrayer? Get Armageddon?

Oh look who's back in the top three!!! Wash, rinse, repeat every single fucking raid. Fuck Blizzard and their asinine gear setup.

Hunters are almost in the same boat. Compare a fresh hunter with normal arrows and an ICC with epic arrows. You swear they are not the same fucking class. That the hunter with Epics is some heroic class you open when you kill Marrowgore.

I currently have a Palli Tank (Bishotron Venture Company) and virtually everyone I know says that they would easily rather Tank with me over a Warrior, even if the Warrior has Higher gear.

The discrepancy between Warrior tanks and Palli tanks is just so massive.
A Paladin can:
"Bubble himself": reduce damage.
"Holy shield:" reduce damage and inflict damage
"Sacred Shield" Heals himself when hit by enemy

These three alone make Pallies infinitely easier to heal and manage as for as boss fights go, combine that with an AOE "taunt" along with being able to Bubble other people mid fight and, using Lay On Hands" totally heal yourself midfight or someone about to die mid-fight and Warriors simply cannot come up to it.

Either Blizz seriously has to retool Warriors form the ground up, or they will become another Pure DPS class in the future.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:I currently have a Palli Tank (Bishotron Venture Company) and virtually everyone I know says that they would easily rather Tank with me over a Warrior, even if the Warrior has Higher gear.

The discrepancy between Warrior tanks and Palli tanks is just so massive.
A Paladin can:
"Bubble himself": reduce damage.

As in Divine Shield?! No one wastes it on that because in any decent raid...you've just screwed your DPS to getting eaten alive.

If BoP? Usually we use it on others to get rid of debuffs. Not considered a Pally tank ability. More a Pally ability.

"Holy shield:" reduce damage and inflict damage

Warriors have the same.

"Sacred Shield" Heals himself when hit by enemy

Which other pallies can do as well.

These three alone make Pallies infinitely easier to heal and manage as for as boss fights go, combine that with an AOE "taunt" along with being able to Bubble other people mid fight and, using Lay On Hands" totally heal yourself midfight or someone about to die mid-fight and Warriors simply cannot come up to it.

Warriors and druids have AoE taunt.

What they don't have is Divine Sacrifice, Argent Defender and AoE aggro that is second to none.

Divine Sac is a fantastic Oh crap ability for a raid rather then a tank because of the fact it shares with everyone. In fact very early on we had them do it, and bubble in very high damage situations to insure everyone took less and then the Pally not taking anything.

Argent Defender is a passive "Oh shit button". Almost nothing compares because the fact it's passive.

AoE aggro is because how many abilities hit everything for Holy, which just ignores armor.

Blessing of Sanc is one of the best tank blessings of all fucking time.

Either Blizz seriously has to retool Warriors form the ground up, or they will become another Pure DPS class in the future.

They already are. The only reason my raid uses a Warrior tank is because two of the longest and most loyal are this class. I keep a spare ICC25 gear in case the Druid or Paladin have an off day. Same with the Arms.

As for pure DPS class? Warriors in BiS gear are bar none one of the best, to the best DPS class with no equal. When you meet having 100% Armor Pen(Passive), Critical % Hard capped, and having an unlimited pool of resources to access said ability? Nothing compares. The burst is better then anything except a hunter, the sustained is better then a rogue. The fact if played and tooled correctly the Warrior also has the best mobility of any of the melee is another benefit.

What the problem is that a warrior NEEDS BiS. That means said warrior has to be carried by the guild for the carrot of knowing he/she will become the monster at the end. In between fresh whatever(1-**) to end of the expansion raiding said warrior is less then dirt is what is so absurd. They have never changed this and sadly Cata will likely prove they never will. They have also done some asinine nerfs...Titan's Grip being the current fave still. At the high end it is bad but not world shattering, but on that low end? It's a monstrous nerf that scales backwards because it hurts the low end DPS by also depriving the low end...rage. You are doing 10% less damage and thus you are simply getting less rage, thus not able to spam your buttons. Add the fucking stupid hybrid tax? Then fresh warriors go Protect or Arms. One of which is a poor tank that needs coddling, and the other is one of the most complex rotation/timing in the game to get right...one a fucking sitting target, let alone moving fights. Though not as bad as Kitty.

Largest reason warrior tanks suck is not as much as abilities as mitigation. We have mitigation almost on par with Paladin utilitizing all around skills, but none of the best of anything. We have this murky kind of abilities. Or even better, look at T7-10 four piece. Warriors strive for a four piece protect set, not because of the fact it's BiS, but because that ability overshadows everything.

T7 : Shield Wall by 3 secs. Not gamebreaking, but nothing of T7 was. But it did make mitgation a shitload easier on many bosses.

T8 : Shield Block reduces Magic by 20%. Holy shit, why wasn't this a baseline ability I will never understand.

T9 : Decrease Shield Block by 10 sec. Massive mitgation at those levels.

T10 : Bloodrage = Mini Shield wall. Again, massive mitigation

Others vary, but for warriors...something stinks when the 4 piece is constant shoring up of large holes.

For the most part the high end becomes either Pally or Druid because Paladins have massive mitigation and Holy, along with a few oh shit abilities no one has. Druid...because a 70K-100K(when all set up) pool is better then anything short of 102% permanent defenses.

Ghost Rider wrote: Because there are so many of them!!!

I think Blizzard is just being a fucking obstinate bitch on this particular issue.

Yeah, that issue is absolutely fucking retarded. Yeah let's not buff warriors because they're played the most, never mind that the only reason they're not subbed out is frequently purely due to the time spent in the guild, or the fact that they're guild leader.

They used the same reasoning for why they wouldn't nerf Bear Druids - because they're the least represented spec, they won't nerf something that is struggling in rep numbers. I literally facepalmed when GC came out and categorically stated that druids wouldn't get nerfed while so few played the spec.

Warriors and druids have AoE taunt.


What they don't have is Divine Sacrifice, Argent Defender and AoE aggro that is second to none.

Divine Sac is a fantastic Oh crap ability for a raid rather then a tank because of the fact it shares with everyone. In fact very early on we had them do it, and bubble in very high damage situations to insure everyone took less and then the Pally not taking anything.

Argent Defender is a passive "Oh shit button". Almost nothing compares because the fact it's passive.

AoE aggro is because how many abilities hit everything for Holy, which just ignores armor.

Blessing of Sanc is one of the best tank blessings of all fucking time.

This, Blizzard once again shows how they completely over react to something. Paladins were considered the 'AoE' tanks in TBC, and that stigma of not being able to main tank carried over, so instead of actually competently buff the class, they completely overpowered it.
Argent Defender being passive is ridiculous, the paladin doesn't have to do anything but spec into it, and suddenly you've got a last stand effect and a Guardian Spirit effect, rolled into one talent, that procs anytime you get hit hard enough.

Divine Sac (even after the nerf) is hands down THE best ability in the game right now for progress raiding, no other talent or spell even comes close to equalling it. There's a reason paladins of all specs were subspeccing prot to grab it in Ulduar and ToC, because it was as I think most dubbed it 'a Raid Wall', going back to Ulduar time now, it wasn't unusual to take 4-5 paladins to Mimiron HM attempts, just to chain Divine Sac for p2, or taking them to Iron Council HM, where the damage reduced is astounding. The presence of Divine Sacrifice is the whole reason the door tactic for Twin Val'kyrs heroic even works.

Either Blizz seriously has to retool Warriors form the ground up, or they will become another Pure DPS class in the future.

They already are. The only reason my raid uses a Warrior tank is because two of the longest and most loyal are this class. I keep a spare ICC25 gear in case the Druid or Paladin have an off day. Same with the Arms.

Same, both our warriors are some of the longest playing members in the guild, one of them is the guild leader. There is no chance any raiding guild would actively go out and recruit a warrior tank

As for pure DPS class? Warriors in BiS gear are bar none one of the best, to the best DPS class with no equal. When you meet having 100% Armor Pen(Passive), Critical % Hard capped, and having an unlimited pool of resources to access said ability? Nothing compares. The burst is better then anything except a hunter, the sustained is better then a rogue. The fact if played and tooled correctly the Warrior also has the best mobility of any of the melee is another benefit.

What the problem is that a warrior NEEDS BiS. That means said warrior has to be carried by the guild for the carrot of knowing he/she will become the monster at the end. In between fresh whatever(1-**) to end of the expansion raiding said warrior is less then dirt is what is so absurd. They have never changed this and sadly Cata will likely prove they never will. They have also done some asinine nerfs...Titan's Grip being the current fave still. At the high end it is bad but not world shattering, but on that low end? It's a monstrous nerf that scales backwards because it hurts the low end DPS by also depriving the low end...rage. You are doing 10% less damage and thus you are simply getting less rage, thus not able to spam your buttons. Add the fucking stupid hybrid tax? Then fresh warriors go Protect or Arms. One of which is a poor tank that needs coddling, and the other is one of the most complex rotation/timing in the game to get right...one a fucking sitting target, let alone moving fights. Though not as bad as Kitty.

Kitty DPS makes me cry, especially on something like fucking Lich King - a boss that's constantly moving, constantly shifting around, with shitty pathing. Although it's nowhere near as bad as fucking Rotface, spinning around every 0.3 seconds. I'm pretty much at the point where i'll refuse to DPS, i'd rather step out if possible than go through that, and if it's not possible, i'll spec Balance - I absolutely fucking detest moonkin DPS, but it's better than balacing 5-6 seperate buffs and debuffs, all while watching the boss and my aggro, and being ready to innervate/CR - and then on top of that the boss will be moving around and my main combo point generator still has a stupid facing requirement on it.

The Titan's Grip nerf was stupid, it was totally uncalled for, and made the best DPS talent in the tree, also the worst.....it's quite amusing how they can fuck up the game so hard in so short a time. I think Swifty did a video on youtube just comparing the different amounts of rage you generate with better and better gear and weapons, and it's stupid, to be so fucking dependent on a good weapon, so that you generate rage.

But yeah, warriors are essentially at a point in ICC now, where rage isn't a limiting factor anymore, and that's where the out of control scaling comes. When rage is unlimited and constantly generated, how fast you can hit your buttons and things come off CD becomes the limiting factor in DPS. Our fury warrior was laughing about it the other night, on any boss in ICC, he simply cannot spend rage fast enough, no matter how much he heroic strikes, no matter how much he spams his abilities, there is so much damage flying around that he'll completely destroy any other class in the game - there's no ramp up time (unless he has to sunder which is once in a blue moon) once he's on the mob, he's doing damage and probably doing the most. About the only fight he does badly on is Rotface, and even then only if he's unlucky - pretty much every fight he destroys on, the only class even coming close to him right now are the rogues when they're constantly tricksing each other, or arcane mages with IA abuse (a mechanic getting removed next patch).

Largest reason warrior tanks suck is not as much as abilities as mitigation. We have mitigation almost on par with Paladin utilitizing all around skills, but none of the best of anything. We have this murky kind of abilities. Or even better, look at T7-10 four piece. Warriors strive for a four piece protect set, not because of the fact it's BiS, but because that ability overshadows everything.

T7 : Shield Wall by 3 secs. Not gamebreaking, but nothing of T7 was. But it did make mitgation a shitload easier on many bosses.

T8 : Shield Block reduces Magic by 20%. Holy shit, why wasn't this a baseline ability I will never understand.

T9 : Decrease Shield Block by 10 sec. Massive mitgation at those levels.

T10 : Bloodrage = Mini Shield wall. Again, massive mitigation

Others vary, but for warriors...something stinks when the 4 piece is constant shoring up of large holes.

For the most part the high end becomes either Pally or Druid because Paladins have massive mitigation and Holy, along with a few oh shit abilities no one has. Druid...because a 70K-100K(when all set up) pool is better then anything short of 102% permanent defenses.

Yeah, mitigation was fine in TBC, when a boss couldn't completely destroy you in a few hits. But when bosses are regularly hitting a tank for 2/3 to 3/4 of their HP, mitigating 3k of that hit, or dodging every once in a while doesn't help. What becomes king is Effective Health, and no matter what, according to all numbers, warriors have the lowest EH of all 4 tanking classes.

Problem also is, the balance only becomes an issue really in hardmode content - when you've got a Bear that can easily top 70k HP (with the 5% buff) you quickly realise that they are the best tanks for hardmodes, simply because they can absorb so much punishment, and that extra HP gives healers a few precious seconds. It'll becoming even more of a glaring disparity as the rolling nerf buff in ICC gets higher and higher. I can't wait to see a feral druid in BiS tanking gear, with the 30% HP buff - you'll quickly see warriors replaced at that point.

On a completely unrelated note, any EU players on Lightning Blade may want to transfer to a different server if they value their sanity. Ensidia is apparently migrating there so any server problems they experience will also affect Paragon.

One advantage of being on a backwater server with no hardcore raid scene (according to wowprogress, exactly one guild on my server has downed Lich King 10, and they also happen to be the only guild that has reached 11/12 on 25) is not having to deal with the sycophants that hang around in the top guild realms.

Divine Sac (even after the nerf) is hands down THE best ability in the game right now for progress raiding, no other talent or spell even comes close to equalling it. There's a reason paladins of all specs were subspeccing prot to grab it in Ulduar and ToC, because it was as I think most dubbed it 'a Raid Wall', going back to Ulduar time now, it wasn't unusual to take 4-5 paladins to Mimiron HM attempts, just to chain Divine Sac for p2, or taking them to Iron Council HM, where the damage reduced is astounding. The presence of Divine Sacrifice is the whole reason the door tactic for Twin Val'kyrs heroic even works.

Note you won't find many (any?) Retadins speccing into it for regular raiding any more - these days it's a Holy (and maybe Prot) talent in PvE encounters, due to the need for 2pts in Divine Guardian to make it work "properly". Was nice whilst it lasted though.

I'll get into a few more comments later...but on MMO some shit GC spewed make me wonder.

Here are ways we could make AE tanking trivial. None of these are things we would actually do, though players have suggested some things dangerously close to them.

-- Challenging Shout has no cooldown. Everything is pretty much taunted to you the whole time.
-- You can tank everything by spamming Commanding Shout. (Back when say warriors tanked the pre-Nef adds, they could do it by spamming Battle or Demo Shout, which generated terrible threat but just enough to actually work on that encounter. Now it really won't work... but it could with the right numbers.)
-- Thunder Clap hits so freaking hard that you hit it once and never really have to again.
-- Thunder Clap puts a dot on everything (stronger than Deep Wounds) so that you hit it once and never really have to again.
-- Defensive Stance has an 8000% threat modifier.

Again he builds a strawman

Those ideas would all work if we wanted you to never lose threat. That's not the goal. On the other hand, the goal also is NOT:

-- Some tank classes just generate a lot more AE threat than others.
-- Some tank classes just AE tank a lot easier than others.
-- AE tanking gets harder and harder over time as dps specs gear up.
-- AE tanking is really, really challenging and you're at the constant risk of losing aggro.
-- Just for completeness, I'll add the original one above, which is that you never, ever lose threat no matter what.

Adds another bale of straw to the man.

Just to present a point? If the goal is not the first point, that means either MASSIVE buffs or MASSIVE nerfs. Guess which one Blizzard has shown the propensity for?

What we like about the warrior AE tanking model that is worth extending to other classes without just duplicating the warrior abilities:

-- You hit more than one button.
-- You hit different buttons than you do when handling single targets.
-- You have to pay attention to crowd controlled targets.
-- You don't totally ignore your single-target abilities.
-- You might switch targets on some pulls

NERFS AHOY!

And again, the last time you needed CC? Oh wait, they destroyed all CC pulls in Wrath because it became fucking sickening in TBC. Remember when a T6 tank still had troubles in heroics because...mobs fucking nearly two shotted them?

So they reduced said damage and need for CC so dungeon runs wouldn't be "LFM need 3 Mages, tank/healer ready to go.".

Fucking dipwit.

Below...I won't comment, but let those who have raid level hunters look upon in awe and wonder:

Beast Mastery
If you're talking best possible gear, we think BM is pretty close to Survival in 3.3.3. Marks is ahead, and that's largely a function of armor pen, but again you are talking about absolute best gear. If you aren't in Icecrown 25 hard modes, then gear is likely to have just as much effect on your damage as spec. Ideally, things are balanced at all levels between level 1 and 80 with BiS gear, but there are going to be a lot of points along the way where that's probably not true. We see Survival hunters beat Marks hunters all the time in what I would categorize as average (meaning not server first guilds but capable of progressing) raids. Hopefully we'll see some BM guys up there too, but it may take higher gear levels. (Source)

I would be pretty surprised if guilds doing hard modes w/ access to lvl 80 BiS gear have hunters raiding as BM, or would be happy with a hunter choosing a spec that isn't min/max'd.
My suspicion is that the hunters with the gear you are describing will have a propensity to go Marks, because that currently yields the highest damage and raiders tend to play whatever does the highest damage. In a world without armor pen, that might not be the case (though I haven't done the math lately).

Nonetheless, it is also true today that Marks can beat Survival, and yet there are a lot of Survival hunters raiding. Our hope is that in 3.3.3 that there will be as many BM hunters as Survival raiding, which would be a really nice bump for BM. Maybe the estimates (ours and those I've read) about the boost BM is getting are overly optimistic. We'll see.

It's possible the Survival hunters are only going Survival for Replenishment, though all 3 hunters bring some pretty solid raid benefits these days.

But this below I will comment:

Shield Block
If you don't think Shield Block is interesting enough today, that's a fine discussion to have. I'm a little surprised to see any nostalgia for the old model though. Hitting a relatively common dps button that plays into other talents and abilities is one thing. Having to constantly mash "make me slightly more survivable" is another. I'll grant you that it was fun on Illidan, but it took that mechanic specifically to make it fun.

Imagine how you'd react to this scenario:

GC: Good news, everyone! We lowered the cooldown of Shield Wall to 5 sec and balanced assuming you hit it every 5 sec.

Tanks: Um.... Thanks? Could you maybe just make it a passive at that point?

GC: But hitting buttons is fun!

Fuck you dipshit. The reason we want something, anything is as Mini and a shitload of raid end tanks have been fucking saying and presenting endless lists of math you motherfucking cock licking donkey whore. Warriors have some of the worst mitigation and effective health in the entire fucking GAME. You only use a fucking warrior tank because he's literally one of the longest officers or the fucking RL/GL. You don't pick up a warrior tank for Heroic ICC...or even regular ICC if you have a geared Pally/Druid...or fuck a DK. It's not worth it.

There's literally thousands of pages, numerous shows of math demonstrating this, but this goat fucking bitch manages to strawman it because he and the rest of Blizzard doesn't want to admit their nerfs and minor buffs have created a glorious imbalance starting with their fucking ineptitude at the original three protection trees. It started with Vanilla with Warriors being 99% of the tanks(You could tank Paladin but only if your entire fucking guild supported you and got you the gear) Ferals almost never got to touch said defensive gear or any decent leather unless in the same goddamn position.

But wait, you kept nerfing warrior, buffing others, nerfing others, minor buffs to warriors....but people still used warriors. Why Blizzard asks, WHYYYYYYYYY?!!! Because there are thousands who FUCKING USE THEM as their MAIN. They don't have the inclination or time to fucking gear up another tank to endgame raiding level. And that's when your goddamn ineptitude shines. Not at the mid range, or low range...but when you're facing a goddamn boss that is pure fucking damage where a Bear can go "I gots 75K!" and the warrior goes "I almost break 60K". Guess who is a pure damage fight in this expansion? If guessed right, you get a booby.

But nay! Their way is to nerf or buff until an equalizationyet specialization is reached for all classes but forget about gear making a vast difference. And before anyone goes "Cata will make it better!", the same was said of TBC AND Wrath. Still same problems, still same dumbass retarded choices abound. Let's just say Fury is proof of this completely dumbass thinking.

I won't comment about their PvP versus PvE choices here, because I don't believe anyone wants a twelve page rant of their bungling.

Minischoles wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: Because there are so many of them!!!

I think Blizzard is just being a fucking obstinate bitch on this particular issue.

Yeah, that issue is absolutely fucking retarded. Yeah let's not buff warriors because they're played the most, never mind that the only reason they're not subbed out is frequently purely due to the time spent in the guild, or the fact that they're guild leader.

They used the same reasoning for why they wouldn't nerf Bear Druids - because they're the least represented spec, they won't nerf something that is struggling in rep numbers. I literally facepalmed when GC came out and categorically stated that druids wouldn't get nerfed while so few played the spec.

Which is what I found his latest bits so damned hilarious. Essentially mocking "Warriors are up a shit creek, but hey...we will make everyone closer to them!" instead of buffing so they are closer to others. This particular I hate of Blizzard's thinking.

Minischoles wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Warriors and druids have AoE taunt.


What they don't have is Divine Sacrifice, Argent Defender and AoE aggro that is second to none.

Divine Sac is a fantastic Oh crap ability for a raid rather then a tank because of the fact it shares with everyone. In fact very early on we had them do it, and bubble in very high damage situations to insure everyone took less and then the Pally not taking anything.

Argent Defender is a passive "Oh shit button". Almost nothing compares because the fact it's passive.

AoE aggro is because how many abilities hit everything for Holy, which just ignores armor.

Blessing of Sanc is one of the best tank blessings of all fucking time.

This, Blizzard once again shows how they completely over react to something. Paladins were considered the 'AoE' tanks in TBC, and that stigma of not being able to main tank carried over, so instead of actually competently buff the class, they completely overpowered it.
Argent Defender being passive is ridiculous, the paladin doesn't have to do anything but spec into it, and suddenly you've got a last stand effect and a Guardian Spirit effect, rolled into one talent, that procs anytime you get hit hard enough.

Yeah, I know almost any tank spec giving their right nut for that. The fact that a Festergut-like fight on a glass grind starter is a more "Heal him, he's not dead!" and not "Wipe it" is fucking ridiculous as a talent.

Minischoles wrote:Divine Sac (even after the nerf) is hands down THE best ability in the game right now for progress raiding, no other talent or spell even comes close to equalling it. There's a reason paladins of all specs were subspeccing prot to grab it in Ulduar and ToC, because it was as I think most dubbed it 'a Raid Wall', going back to Ulduar time now, it wasn't unusual to take 4-5 paladins to Mimiron HM attempts, just to chain Divine Sac for p2, or taking them to Iron Council HM, where the damage reduced is astounding. The presence of Divine Sacrifice is the whole reason the door tactic for Twin Val'kyrs heroic even works.

Jesus yes. It's so damned hilarious that even in 10 LK Heroic we are using this for a couple parts is fucking insane. As with your other examples it just proves what the fuck is wrong with the way Blizzard handles data.

Minischoles wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:They already are. The only reason my raid uses a Warrior tank is because two of the longest and most loyal are this class. I keep a spare ICC25 gear in case the Druid or Paladin have an off day. Same with the Arms.

Same, both our warriors are some of the longest playing members in the guild, one of them is the guild leader. There is no chance any raiding guild would actively go out and recruit a warrior tank

It's really sad. Even when we get a new recruit, they are "I tank!" and a good deal chuckle and tell him "Go Arms or Fury...it'll be faster for you.".

Minischoles wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:As for pure DPS class? Warriors in BiS gear are bar none one of the best, to the best DPS class with no equal. When you meet having 100% Armor Pen(Passive), Critical % Hard capped, and having an unlimited pool of resources to access said ability? Nothing compares. The burst is better then anything except a hunter, the sustained is better then a rogue. The fact if played and tooled correctly the Warrior also has the best mobility of any of the melee is another benefit.

What the problem is that a warrior NEEDS BiS. That means said warrior has to be carried by the guild for the carrot of knowing he/she will become the monster at the end. In between fresh whatever(1-**) to end of the expansion raiding said warrior is less then dirt is what is so absurd. They have never changed this and sadly Cata will likely prove they never will. They have also done some asinine nerfs...Titan's Grip being the current fave still. At the high end it is bad but not world shattering, but on that low end? It's a monstrous nerf that scales backwards because it hurts the low end DPS by also depriving the low end...rage. You are doing 10% less damage and thus you are simply getting less rage, thus not able to spam your buttons. Add the fucking stupid hybrid tax? Then fresh warriors go Protect or Arms. One of which is a poor tank that needs coddling, and the other is one of the most complex rotation/timing in the game to get right...one a fucking sitting target, let alone moving fights. Though not as bad as Kitty.

Kitty DPS makes me cry, especially on something like fucking Lich King - a boss that's constantly moving, constantly shifting around, with shitty pathing. Although it's nowhere near as bad as fucking Rotface, spinning around every 0.3 seconds. I'm pretty much at the point where i'll refuse to DPS, i'd rather step out if possible than go through that, and if it's not possible, i'll spec Balance - I absolutely fucking detest moonkin DPS, but it's better than balacing 5-6 seperate buffs and debuffs, all while watching the boss and my aggro, and being ready to innervate/CR - and then on top of that the boss will be moving around and my main combo point generator still has a stupid facing requirement on it.

Yeah, the graphs showing what one needs to do for Kitty is hilarious and awful. They essentially made the spec to be "Hit all this...and hope the boss doesn't move!". And oh yeah...rely on other classes for a particular part without making someone a mangle whore.

Minischoles wrote:The Titan's Grip nerf was stupid, it was totally uncalled for, and made the best DPS talent in the tree, also the worst.....it's quite amusing how they can fuck up the game so hard in so short a time. I think Swifty did a video on youtube just comparing the different amounts of rage you generate with better and better gear and weapons, and it's stupid, to be so fucking dependent on a good weapon, so that you generate rage.

But yeah, warriors are essentially at a point in ICC now, where rage isn't a limiting factor anymore, and that's where the out of control scaling comes. When rage is unlimited and constantly generated, how fast you can hit your buttons and things come off CD becomes the limiting factor in DPS. Our fury warrior was laughing about it the other night, on any boss in ICC, he simply cannot spend rage fast enough, no matter how much he heroic strikes, no matter how much he spams his abilities, there is so much damage flying around that he'll completely destroy any other class in the game - there's no ramp up time (unless he has to sunder which is once in a blue moon) once he's on the mob, he's doing damage and probably doing the most. About the only fight he does badly on is Rotface, and even then only if he's unlucky - pretty much every fight he destroys on, the only class even coming close to him right now are the rogues when they're constantly tricksing each other, or arcane mages with IA abuse (a mechanic getting removed next patch).

The saddest part of it, is how they did the nerf. Just 10% flat. It's like watching a kid knock down a series of blocks because he wants it smaller.

As for the other part? Yeah, that's where I am and then some. I spam everything. It doesn't matter, my whites crit too many times, I get too much rage, I have everything spammable. I even adopted the Rend Build to use it....doesn't matter, I still get a crit and back to 90-100.

Only fights I lose anything are either Rotface(getting unlucky) or Sindragosa(same deal). Everything else is pretty much spam 4 buttons. And we have another warrior and me do Sunders. I do 2-3, he does the same. Literally it's maybe a 5 second loss at most, and even then we know which times benefit and which don't.

Minischoles wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Largest reason warrior tanks suck is not as much as abilities as mitigation. We have mitigation almost on par with Paladin utilitizing all around skills, but none of the best of anything. We have this murky kind of abilities. Or even better, look at T7-10 four piece. Warriors strive for a four piece protect set, not because of the fact it's BiS, but because that ability overshadows everything.

T7 : Shield Wall by 3 secs. Not gamebreaking, but nothing of T7 was. But it did make mitgation a shitload easier on many bosses.

T8 : Shield Block reduces Magic by 20%. Holy shit, why wasn't this a baseline ability I will never understand.

T9 : Decrease Shield Block by 10 sec. Massive mitgation at those levels.

T10 : Bloodrage = Mini Shield wall. Again, massive mitigation

Others vary, but for warriors...something stinks when the 4 piece is constant shoring up of large holes.

For the most part the high end becomes either Pally or Druid because Paladins have massive mitigation and Holy, along with a few oh shit abilities no one has. Druid...because a 70K-100K(when all set up) pool is better then anything short of 102% permanent defenses.

Yeah, mitigation was fine in TBC, when a boss couldn't completely destroy you in a few hits. But when bosses are regularly hitting a tank for 2/3 to 3/4 of their HP, mitigating 3k of that hit, or dodging every once in a while doesn't help. What becomes king is Effective Health, and no matter what, according to all numbers, warriors have the lowest EH of all 4 tanking classes.

Problem also is, the balance only becomes an issue really in hardmode content - when you've got a Bear that can easily top 70k HP (with the 5% buff) you quickly realise that they are the best tanks for hardmodes, simply because they can absorb so much punishment, and that extra HP gives healers a few precious seconds. It'll becoming even more of a glaring disparity as the rolling nerf buff in ICC gets higher and higher. I can't wait to see a feral druid in BiS tanking gear, with the 30% HP buff - you'll quickly see warriors replaced at that point.

Yeah, EH is insane for Druids. Pallies and DKs are a lower but Pallies have shittons of mitigation. DKs could use some love, but warriors are essentially gimped in both.

So yeah, I want to see our Bear tank in with his gear at 30%. He probably could solo tank Festergut if not for the debuffs at that point. Hearing from the healers, it's a joke on regular.

Is there anyone that truly misses 'CC' ?
I'll admit that all through BC I simply would NOT do a Heroic unless there was a Mage or a Rogue in the group.

Because personally I really, REALLY don't miss having to worry about wiping if we suddenly pull 5 monsters in stead of 4.