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Norade wrote:Unless that bunker, like Alderaan was able to survive under siege indefinitely. While a blockade would have worked for keeping them from supplying anything that is far far more costly than blowing it up as an example.

Why? All you'd have to do is disable their ability to enter or leave the bunker, using the US/Japan example, disable any surface vehicles and leave behind a single piece of artillery at each entrance, set to blow up anything that attempts to come in or go out those doors. And strangely enough, not everyone is concerned about attaching a price tag to human lives, or worried about the bottom line, ESPECIALLY AN EMPIRE THAT WAS ABLE TO BUILD NOT ONE BUT TWO PLANET-BUSTING WEAPONS RELYING ENTIRELY ON SECRET DONATIONS.

1) The attack of Alderaan certainly killed more people than the attacks on Japan but percentage wise it isn't even close. The nuking of Japan was far worse percentage wise than anything that could have been done to Alderaan and a half dozen other worlds. That isn't to say it's right, but then again outside of 2 uses nukes have never seen use again so something sure went right there.

There's been another thread mentioned several times so far where this argument's already been brought up. Basically it goes something like this: If you murder several billion people, it doesn't matter if it was only 5 billion out of 100 quadrillion people in the galaxy, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of 200 quintillion people, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of an infinite number of people, it doesn't matter what small percentage of the total galactic population it is, it is still a fucking atrocity and only feasable if even more lives are at stake because of it.

And no, 'more lives at stake' doesn't mean 'destroy these five billion so that the Empire doesn't have to destroy that 25 billion that had subversive, Rebel elements on other planets that would act up if an example isn't made out of Alderaan'.

2) Not really the same given that there may not have been the political will to maintain a siege against Alderaan for any length of time.

Who gives a shit about political will? Palpatine dissolved the fucking Senate, he was the effective dictator-for-life, he could keep it up for as long as he damn well pleased. And if political will was such a problem, then MAYBE THE SIEGE WAS A BAD IDEA, AND MAYBE BLOWING THE PLACE UP IS EVEN A WORSE IDEA and only being pushed through so that rational people don't have a chance to think about it before it happens.

There is also a cost factor, any attacking army will always value their lives more highly than yours so when combined with cost, effect, political will needed, and the creation of a new form of deterrence the destruction of a world was justified.

I'm sorry, what? I'm trying to see your point, but I've just been blinded by stupidity. Is your point about the Empire worrying about cost-factor of blockading a single planet buried somewhere under the countless other worlds that the Empire had already blockaded, enslaved, BDZ'd and otherwise fucked over through conventional means? Is the cost of keeping a few Star Destroyers out of tens of thousands parked in orbit around the planet more than the cost of building and staffing a moon-sized battle station?

Is cost even a concern when said battle-station was built entirely secretly using hidden funds? Are you that much of an idiot?

Boeing 757 wrote:I left that out purposely because IMO, 'good' will be taken differently by each respective party.

So what you're saying is that you deliberately altered the quote to give it a different meaning without making mention of it... because the quote was open to interpretation? How does this change the fact that it was blatantly dishonest of you to do that?

Norade wrote:Nobody forced them to protest there and I'm sure they were warned to GTFO before the ships set down.

Either you're fucking retarded, a sociopath, or trolling. Which is it?

Norade wrote: Nobody forced them to protest there and I'm sure they were warned to GTFO before the ships set down.

Nobody forced Tarkin to have his ship land on those protesters and I'm sure they could have found another landing pad elsewhere. IIRC Tarkin gets promoted as a result of this.

Apparently sending out police and/or soldiers with available non-lethal weapons to remove the crowd was too much work?

Boeing 757 wrote: I left that out purposely because IMO, 'good' will be taken differently by each respective party. What seems good to some one like you or Shroom Man, may not be good in the eyes of the Imperial leadership which felt that it was doing 'good' for their cause by blowing up Alderaan.

Except you then responded and acted as if Shroom had said "no reason" instead of his "no good reason." You misrepresented him intentionally when instead you should be trying to prove that the Empire's reasoning was good, instead you misquoted him intentionally so that you could simply argue that the Empire had reason.

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:

Boeing 757 wrote:I left that out purposely because IMO, 'good' will be taken differently by each respective party.

So what you're saying is that you deliberately altered the quote to give it a different meaning without making mention of it... because the quote was open to interpretation? How does this change the fact that it was blatantly dishonest of you to do that?

Did you even read the post? His original statement is there in quotation brackets just as he had written it. Nor did my reply to that segment aim to 'deliberately alter' it.

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:

Norade wrote:Unless that bunker, like Alderaan was able to survive under siege indefinitely. While a blockade would have worked for keeping them from supplying anything that is far far more costly than blowing it up as an example.

Why? All you'd have to do is disable their ability to enter or leave the bunker, using the US/Japan example, disable any surface vehicles and leave behind a single piece of artillery at each entrance, set to blow up anything that attempts to come in or go out those doors. And strangely enough, not everyone is concerned about attaching a price tag to human lives, or worried about the bottom line, ESPECIALLY AN EMPIRE THAT WAS ABLE TO BUILD NOT ONE BUT TWO PLANET-BUSTING WEAPONS RELYING ENTIRELY ON SECRET DONATIONS.

That still increases risk to your own forces, in an ideal war the enemy all dies and you lose nothing. Oddly enough this is how Alderaan played out.

1) The attack of Alderaan certainly killed more people than the attacks on Japan but percentage wise it isn't even close. The nuking of Japan was far worse percentage wise than anything that could have been done to Alderaan and a half dozen other worlds. That isn't to say it's right, but then again outside of 2 uses nukes have never seen use again so something sure went right there.

There's been another thread mentioned several times so far where this argument's already been brought up. Basically it goes something like this: If you murder several billion people, it doesn't matter if it was only 5 billion out of 100 quadrillion people in the galaxy, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of 200 quintillion people, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of an infinite number of people, it doesn't matter what small percentage of the total galactic population it is, it is still a fucking atrocity and only feasable if even more lives are at stake because of it.

And no, 'more lives at stake' doesn't mean 'destroy these five billion so that the Empire doesn't have to destroy that 25 billion that had subversive, Rebel elements on other planets that would act up if an example isn't made out of Alderaan'.

Umm, killing 5 billion so you don't need to use the weapon again is a perfect reason to use it once. Nukes have never been used outside of the WWII and they have likely saved the US and Russia from going to war for really and killing more than 50,000 people.

2) Not really the same given that there may not have been the political will to maintain a siege against Alderaan for any length of time.

Who gives a shit about political will? Palpatine dissolved the fucking Senate, he was the effective dictator-for-life, he could keep it up for as long as he damn well pleased. And if political will was such a problem, then MAYBE THE SIEGE WAS A BAD IDEA, AND MAYBE BLOWING THE PLACE UP IS EVEN A WORSE IDEA and only being pushed through so that rational people don't have a chance to think about it before it happens.

Ramming it through before people can think about it is a valid reason for doing something, not a fluffy nice one, but a valid one.

There is also a cost factor, any attacking army will always value their lives more highly than yours so when combined with cost, effect, political will needed, and the creation of a new form of deterrence the destruction of a world was justified.

I'm sorry, what? I'm trying to see your point, but I've just been blinded by stupidity. Is your point about the Empire worrying about cost-factor of blockading a single planet buried somewhere under the countless other worlds that the Empire had already blockaded, enslaved, BDZ'd and otherwise fucked over through conventional means? Is the cost of keeping a few Star Destroyers out of tens of thousands parked in orbit around the planet more than the cost of building and staffing a moon-sized battle station?

Is cost even a concern when said battle-station was built entirely secretly using hidden funds? Are you that much of an idiot?

Even if cost isn't a major concern, does that mean you flush money? Even though running the station will cost more than the siege attacking one world isn't its job, ruling through fear is and in that it is worth the cost of blowing away a planet.

Boeing 757 wrote: Did you even read the post? His original statement is there in quotation brackets just as he had written it. Nor did my reply to that segment aim to 'deliberately alter' it.

I'm going to post this again. Emphasis mine.

Shroom wrote:And they blow up one of their own worlds for no good fucking reason? Hah. That's not even a remotely reasonable act.

Boeing wrote:It could be argued that Alderaan was destroyed in order to dissuade other planets and sectors from resisting Imperial rule (as the Tarkin Doctrine would have it, thus ensuring 'peace'), and so I don't think that it was destroyed without a 'fucking reason.'

The way i'm reading your response, you're acting as if Shroom said that the Empire had "no reason". I'm reading your response as simply providing a reason. Shroom's point is that the reasoning behind Tarkin's destroying Alderaan is incredibly immoral and evil.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Boeing 757 wrote: I left that out purposely because IMO, 'good' will be taken differently by each respective party. What seems good to some one like you or Shroom Man, may not be good in the eyes of the Imperial leadership which felt that it was doing 'good' for their cause by blowing up Alderaan.

Except you then responded and acted as if Shroom had said "no reason" instead of his "no good reason." You misrepresented him intentionally when instead you should be trying to prove that the Empire's reasoning was good, instead you misquoted him intentionally so that you could simply argue that the Empire had reason.

So dissuading insurrectionists from resisting its will is not good according to the Empire's perspective? Because that is exactly what is spelled out in the Tarkin Doctrine, and what the action of blowing up Alderaan was designed to accomplish.

Go ahead and prove that wrong.

Norade wrote:That still increases risk to your own forces, in an ideal war the enemy all dies and you lose nothing. Oddly enough this is how Alderaan played out.

What? What?!! In what genocidal lunatic's head is this an 'ideal war'?! You really are a sick sociopath. An 'ideal war' is one where the sovereign entities' differences are resolved without the need for armed conflict or death at all you sick, disgusting little shit.

There's been another thread mentioned several times so far where this argument's already been brought up. Basically it goes something like this: If you murder several billion people, it doesn't matter if it was only 5 billion out of 100 quadrillion people in the galaxy, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of 200 quintillion people, it doesn't matter if it was 5 billion out of an infinite number of people, it doesn't matter what small percentage of the total galactic population it is, it is still a fucking atrocity and only feasable if even more lives are at stake because of it.

And no, 'more lives at stake' doesn't mean 'destroy these five billion so that the Empire doesn't have to destroy that 25 billion that had subversive, Rebel elements on other planets that would act up if an example isn't made out of Alderaan'.

Umm, killing 5 billion so you don't need to use the weapon again is a perfect reason to use it once. Nukes have never been used outside of the WWII and they have likely saved the US and Russia from going to war for really and killing more than 50,000 people.

Wow, so I laid out how "I'm slappin' one bitch into silence to scare those other five over there so I don't have to slap them too" is not valid reasoning... and you proceed to use that exact reason? The Empire never fucking *had* to destroy any planets you stupid, basement-dwelling twerp. They did so solely to cause fear, which turns out to be a sucky motivator for peace and loyalty.

As far as nukes are concerned, you're just spouting speculative shit now. Prove that nukes *would* have been used offensively in other conflicts if they hadn't been used at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Prove that a US/Russia war would have been inevitable without usage of nukes. And moreover, prove that this situation would be analogous to the galaxy-dominating Empire.

Who gives a shit about political will? Palpatine dissolved the fucking Senate, he was the effective dictator-for-life, he could keep it up for as long as he damn well pleased. And if political will was such a problem, then MAYBE THE SIEGE WAS A BAD IDEA, AND MAYBE BLOWING THE PLACE UP IS EVEN A WORSE IDEA and only being pushed through so that rational people don't have a chance to think about it before it happens.

Ramming it through before people can think about it is a valid reason for doing something, not a fluffy nice one, but a valid one.

And that valid reason would be? Oh yeah, "We're doing it now so we don't have to do it again". Unless they take the alternative route of not doing it now, not doing it again, simply using their overwhelming forces intelligently and blockading the planet and, say, not being colossal, evil douchepricks, which is what is being argued. The argument here is "The Empire is fucking evil for destroying Alderaan" and your response is "Well they *have* to be evil and destroy Alderaan otherwise they'd be even eviller and destroy other planets!" In what psychotic universe does this even begin to make sense?

I'm sorry, what? I'm trying to see your point, but I've just been blinded by stupidity. Is your point about the Empire worrying about cost-factor of blockading a single planet buried somewhere under the countless other worlds that the Empire had already blockaded, enslaved, BDZ'd and otherwise fucked over through conventional means? Is the cost of keeping a few Star Destroyers out of tens of thousands parked in orbit around the planet more than the cost of building and staffing a moon-sized battle station?

Is cost even a concern when said battle-station was built entirely secretly using hidden funds? Are you that much of an idiot?

Even if cost isn't a major concern, does that mean you flush money? Even though running the station will cost more than the siege attacking one world isn't its job, ruling through fear is and in that it is worth the cost of blowing away a planet.

Except fear causes more problems than it solves, as is easily demonstrable by the entirety of the OT and any number of historical examples. Which means using money to make something to rule by more fear when the only valid threat that exists is yourself is effectively flushing that away.

Edit: Fixed quote tags.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Boeing 757 wrote: Did you even read the post? His original statement is there in quotation brackets just as he had written it. Nor did my reply to that segment aim to 'deliberately alter' it.

I'm going to post this again. Emphasis mine.

Shroom wrote:And they blow up one of their own worlds for no good fucking reason? Hah. That's not even a remotely reasonable act.

Boeing wrote:It could be argued that Alderaan was destroyed in order to dissuade other planets and sectors from resisting Imperial rule (as the Tarkin Doctrine would have it, thus ensuring 'peace'), and so I don't think that it was destroyed without a 'fucking reason.'

The way i'm reading your response, you're acting as if Shroom said that the Empire had "no reason". I'm reading your response as simply providing a reason. Shroom's point is that the reasoning behind Tarkin's destroying Alderaan is incredibly immoral and evil.

I understand what you're telling me. And I do realize that the way that I reworded it is not word-for-word, which makes it appear as if I'm being dishonest. The reason that I didn't say 'no good fucking reason' is because in my mind, it's a given that the Empire blew up the planet for its own good and well-being...otherwise they wouldn't have destroyed the planet. I'll be more careful next time with my wording.

Boeing 757 wrote:So dissuading insurrectionists from resisting its will is not good according to the Empire's perspective? Because that is exactly what is spelled out in the Tarkin Doctrine, and what the action of blowing up Alderaan was designed to accomplish.

Go ahead and prove that wrong.

Okay, here goes... ahem...

Fear is a sucky motivator, only breeds resentment and more insurrection and the only way to effectively fulfill the Tarkin Dorktrine would be to blow up every populated planet in the galaxy, as that is the only assured way to stamp out all possible insurrection.

Wow, that was easy.

Wow, Norade, you're a complete fucking tool and I think it's pointless to argue with you at all. You're one of those shitheads who like to think "hurr killing billions in the name of some militaristic bullshit purpose" = "perfectly fine because of XYZ-military shit rationale", and I think if the Empire used some other method to resolve the situation that happened ON THEIR OWN FUCKING PLANET to avoid needlessly slaughtering innocent men, women and children, you would probably be bitching about how it was not militarily expedient and more efficient or shit to just kill them all and let god sort them out or shit. Turns out violence is the last resort of the incompetent, and again like I said the Empire never tried other methods to resolve the Alderaan issue, all they did was immediately blow the fuck out of it - without even any prompting! It was even a surprise decision, on part of Tarkin, because until the Senate was dissolved right before ANH Alderaan was even fucking represented in the goddamn Imperial Senate and is an Imperial Core World.

hey I wonder if you'd sound like a jackass if you said that nobody forced the tianamen square guys to protest there, and that the protestor should've GTFO from the tanks and that its OK protesters get run over by tanks or some shit like that because its their fucking fault and they should've GTFO because THEY HAD IT COMING

oh wait, you do sound like an incredibly thick piece of shit, like a piece of shit denser than fucking neutronium. is your shitbrain ingrained with neutronium shit pellets? i wouldn't be surpriseds

lol "it is much cheaper to murder the fuck out of an entire world thus its OK" = morally indefensible position = Norade is a piece of fuck = "genocide is the cheaper/better option" = shit argument = Norade is a piece of fuck = jesus christ imagine if the americans talked this way about iraq they'd probably come off like a bunch of jackasses because "blowing up entire planets = good" = not good = you are a piece of shit = ALSO arguing about how killing a fuckload of people is NO BIGGIE by comparing everyone dead in alderajapanalderaaan to the rest of the galaxy's population is a shit argument because = WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THE ENTIRE GALACTIC POPULATION YOU MURDEROUS FUCKFACES = you people are a bunch of shits = and are total fucking idiots

am i rite?

look at me i'm a cocksucker who apologizes for the atrocious actions of shit totalitarian shitregime

Darth Fanboy wrote:So it's cool to land a transport on top of protestors because the body count wasn't above double or triple digits?

No it's amoral because you don't have a right to be there and they've got a job to do.

Dumbass you're taking two of the smaller evils off of that list and completely ignoring the other incidents involving Imperial murders and especially the not-so-short list of species and populations ENSLAVED by the Empire. Slavery being a crime of such douchebaggery it got its own category on our list.

Wow, nice goal post moving. Try to remember you made the argument of body counts, you get to live with it. Again, the Empire is totally evil, but it doesn't really matter how nice a country you're in, trying to impede the daily running of a nations military is a very bad idea.

Okay General Schatten that makes murder okay.

[

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:

Boeing 757 wrote:So dissuading insurrectionists from resisting its will is not good according to the Empire's perspective? Because that is exactly what is spelled out in the Tarkin Doctrine, and what the action of blowing up Alderaan was designed to accomplish.

Go ahead and prove that wrong.

Okay, here goes... ahem...

Fear is a sucky motivator, only breeds resentment and more insurrection and the only way to effectively fulfill the Tarkin Dorktrine would be to blow up every populated planet in the galaxy, as that is the only assured way to stamp out all possible insurrection.

Wow, that was easy.

I'm not a fan of Tarkin's philosophy either. It's counterproductive on the whole and it destroys the benevolent image that Palpatine had been using since TPM. In the long run it also gave the Rebels more ammo for their propaganda and recruiting machine. However, from what I understood, that is what the Empire circa ANH sees as being good [the Tarkin Doctrine] and so it blew up the planet.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Okay General Schatten that makes murder okay.

If some hippies got a case of the retarded and decided they'd do a sit-in on a B-52 runway they deserve what they get, because for one they're going to get shot at trying to cross into a restricted area and you have gigantic fucking planes that need to land. It's not a matter of saying murder is okay and I can not tell you how much this strawman irks me, it's a matter of learning there are places to protest and a military landing pad is not it. They were told to move, they would not move, the security forces (be they stormies or Imperial Army) would have been within the clear to shoot their asses and drag their corpses off the landing pad. The Empire just had a policy that dead is dead and dropped a ship on the ones that wouldn't move.

General Schatten wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:So it's cool to land a transport on top of protestors because the body count wasn't above double or triple digits?

No it's amoral because you don't have a right to be there and they've got a job to do.

So you're fine with the events at Tienanmen Square then?

Let's put this in simple terms: Were anyone's lives dependent on the transport landing right then, right there? No? Then ending someone's life to accomplish it is a moral wrong you twit.

Dumbass you're taking two of the smaller evils off of that list and completely ignoring the other incidents involving Imperial murders and especially the not-so-short list of species and populations ENSLAVED by the Empire. Slavery being a crime of such douchebaggery it got its own category on our list.

Wow, nice goal post moving. Try to remember you made the argument of body counts, you get to live with it. Again, the Empire is totally evil, but it doesn't really matter how nice a country you're in, trying to impede the daily running of a nations military is a very bad idea.

[/quote]

Wait, so because he made the argument that the Empire had a high body count, and in that argument referred to a list which had many items, some of them with high body counts and some of them with not-so-high counts... he's wrong because some of the items don't have a high body count? Are you retarded or something?

Hey Oniko maybe the Empire could've used... urrrhh... crowd dispersal means with shit like teargas and could've dispersed the protestors by beating them with sticks and smashing riot shields in their faces. But apparently landing a ship right on top of them was the better alternatives because they had it coming!

General Schatten wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Okay General Schatten that makes murder okay.

If some hippies got a case of the retarded and decided they'd do a sit-in on a B-52 runway they deserve what they get, because for one they're going to get shot at trying to cross into a restricted area and you have gigantic fucking planes that need to land. It's not a matter of saying murder is okay and I can not tell you how much this strawman irks me, it's a matter of learning there are places to protest and a military landing pad is not it. They were told to move, they would not move, the security forces (be they stormies or Imperial Army) would have been within the clear to shoot their asses and drag their corpses off the landing pad. The Empire just had a policy that dead is dead and dropped a ship on the ones that wouldn't move.

That's not the case at all. They refused to move from the landing pads, and when Tarkin heard about it, he crushed them with his shuttle on his own initiative. He was then commended and promoted. You are significantly distorting the issue, when it is not clear whether it was a military landing pad, or whether they did have a right to protest there, or a number of issues that changes it from "lol hippies".

They had it coming.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:They had it coming.

Just like the Alderaanians, eh Shroom? Had it coming from the start.

It also amuses me that people use The Force Unleashed as a source of evidence, given its other significant contradictions to the mass of sources. I suppose that most people just assume that newer trumps older, but except in the case of things labeled S-canon, that's never been known to apply. Similarly, we can't well pick-and-choose from plot events like we can with characters or technology from iffy sources. So I am in favor of ignoring the second half of TFU altogether, because incorporating it makes things so much dumber.

General Schatten wrote:No it's amoral because you don't have a right to be there and they've got a job to do.

So the people protesting deserved to be killed

Hate to see what you would have done to Rosa Parks...

Wow, nice goal post moving. Try to remember you made the argument of body counts, you get to live with it.

Allow me to humor your fucking semantics then, did you even look at the fucking link I posted where denizens of this board put together a list of atrocities comitted by the Empire that include but are not limited to the wholsesale murder and enslavement of populations? You disagree that the Empire killed large numbers of people? Camaas, Firrerre, Vestar (home of the Icarii) not good enough for you as well?

My apologies though for bringing up the evils of slavery. The fact that the Empire enslaved spcies has no relevance to any argument where the morality of the Galactic Empire is called into question.

Again, the Empire is totally evil, but it doesn't really matter how nice a country you're in, trying to impede the daily running of a nations military is a very bad idea.

So peaceful protesters should be killed because they should have known better? By your logic, the fact that the Empire is evil absolves Tarkin from any responsibility.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:They had it coming.

Those poor hippies .

Bakustra wrote:Just like the Alderaanians, eh Shroom? Had it coming from the start.

Whores, all of them, wretched vile things with cunts for eyes and breasts bleeding blood from the milkbags.

Just like my mother.

Her breasts bled on me.

WHORESWHORESWHORES

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:They had it coming.

Those poor hippies .

We all got it coming, kid.


Deserve's got nothing to do with it.