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Jon wrote:Trailer looks fun eitherway, looking forward to duking it out on the streets of London and Paris.

Hopefully there'll be more point to it now, though. MW2 is full of situations like "well here we are driving our humvees somewhere at random" or "hey there are guys there shoot them".

EDIT: BTW, why are people so in love with Soap? He's a complete asshole.

"This will take a while" *attaches electrodes to prisoner*

thejester wrote:The trope of IIACW is hardly new or unique, it's just as far as I'm aware it has yet to make the transition to FPS-land. Why? I have no idea, but I don't think the argument 'herp derp Americans are only comfortable with the BIG BAD FOREIGNER' is particulary convincing.

Neither is the argument of "herp derp you need foreign invasion to create tension", to be honest.

I kinda liked Soap because he's a complete asshole. I wouldn't want to have someone like him around in real life, but I find him to be an entertaining character.

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:I kinda liked Soap because he's a complete asshole. I wouldn't want to have someone like him around in real life, but I find him to be an entertaining character.

Perhaps.

And man, I forgot how absurd some of the mission in MW2 are.

"Oil rigs, sir?"

"The Russians are using them as SAM sites. The oil workers are human shields, so we can't just blow them up wholesale."

Okay, let's see. There's a FUCKING WAR going on, and you can't blow up some enemy oil rigs/SAM sites blocking your way because there are civilians on them? Really?

It's not just one part of the story that's completely out there, it's the entire thing.

That was my favorite part.

"Don't you dare to attack our SAM sites! If you do... we'll blow them up ourselves!"

*Cue Americans figuring out the cheapest and easiest way to get the Russians to commit suicide* *Cue HOOAH WE USE PRECISION*

barnest2 wrote:

I suppose it technically could but presumably a civil war wouldn't just happen, Texan paratroopers aren't going to suddenly descend from the sky into NYC. Invasion from a foreign force - no matter the absurdity of Russia airlifting onto the east coast - creates a better atmosphere.

Why are the texan paratroops any more difficult to set up than russian revolutionaries with a super-navy?

Because Texans are a known, and generally seen as 'part of us good guys,' quantity in the US. Russians are The Other. Gamers who would never think to ask "where did the Russians get an invasion fleet from?" will ask "WTF? Since when is the Texas National Guard up to that shit?"

Artemas wrote:Socially, it would be sudden though, whereas with a civil war scenario society would be slowly militarizing before it happens. In RED DAWN or HOMEFRONT or MW2 or whatever, the audience (suburban civilians) are treated to the same sudden change as those suburban people whom would be living in those occupied, wartorn places. A civil war on the other hand, sees a far more confused creation of loyalties, rivalries and new ties. If you are trading on the shock value of civilian life destroyed, it is easier (and in the american case, in keeping with their peculiar paranoia) to depict a sudden foreign military on home soil.

Anyone here remember the British "invasion novel" genre? Same concept- you have a nation which is supremely secure in the strength of its navy (and now air power) to secure it from invasion, but which is domestically not well organized to resist invasion. The British had good troops, but not many of them, and they were mostly overseas, so being invaded by a large and tough continental army was especially frightening to them.

The US has a powerfully equipped army... but again, so much of it is overseas, and when you get down to it there's awfully little manpower to cover the amount of ground the US has to defend. This creates the preconditions for "invasion novels" to be successful: a nation with a relatively 'soft' homeland, which is familiar enough with war to know it's horrible and fear what would happen if it suddenly came to their doorstep.

PeZook wrote:You know, I started replaying MW2 because of this thread, and the whole setup with the Russian invasion felt just wrong not just because hundreds of jets appearing out of nowhere is stupid, but how fast it happened.

The game is kind enough to track the time, and the invasion happens literally days after the airport attack. Days.

I couldn't find it shocking or moving because it felt...fake. Like there was a whole fleet of cloaked Russian aircraft carriers prowling just off shore ready to vomit their fighter wings on poor unsuspecting America.

Alternatively, Russia has 300 knot airfoil superships that can cross the atlantic in two days, and they were all loaded and ready to go when the airport was hit

Heh. I've heard it speculated that "Day 1" and "Day 2" and so on of the Modern Warfare games don't happen in such rapid succession as all that, or don't necessarily. I mean, you have characters being wounded in some of those scenes and recovering with improbable speed, you have people moving from one end of the world to another that would be difficult even if there were dedicated air transports sitting ready to move them at any moment, let alone if someone actually has to arrange transportation... it's a mess.

The events of the game become less silly when spread over a period of weeks. But yeah, I take your meaning.

Scottish Ninja wrote:That was my favorite part.

"Don't you dare to attack our SAM sites! If you do... we'll blow them up ourselves!"

*Cue Americans figuring out the cheapest and easiest way to get the Russians to commit suicide* *Cue HOOAH WE USE PRECISION*

SHIT. How did I miss that? And then of course they come up with this complicated scheme which apparently involves committing two nuclear submarines plus God knows what else... instead of just torpedoing the rigs and dealing with the problem that way.

Man.

Simon_Jester wrote:SHIT. How did I miss that? And then of course they come up with this complicated scheme which apparently involves committing two nuclear submarines plus God knows what else... instead of just torpedoing the rigs and dealing with the problem that way.

Man.

That felt like something torn completely out of context. It was like the US wasn't fighitng a vicious war in their own home at all.

But I guess the devs wanted submarine insertion (cool setup!) yet they ALSO wanted a Littlebird ride (Hell yeah another cool setup!) so they kinda mashed those two together and wrote something up to kinda sorta join them.

It's the old problem of screenwriters: you have to learn to murder your babies. They couldn't do that.

Since America is pretty much the only nation that has the ability to invade another 1st world country from anywhere, I would really like to see a game that takes the perspective of a small nation being invaded by Big Bad America. I mean come on, that would be epic.

hongi wrote:Since America is pretty much the only nation that has the ability to invade another 1st world country from anywhere, I would really like to see a game that takes the perspective of a small nation being invaded by Big Bad America. I mean come on, that would be epic.

That upcoming game by the PLA might fulfil that. Well, except for the 'small nation' bit.

well in fairness one of the main characters you play as actually IS russian; hell you even play as a russian red shirt in one mission. I am not arguing that it is wholly progressive but compared to other video games, it certainly is better in the view of the "other".

PeZook wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:SHIT. How did I miss that? And then of course they come up with this complicated scheme which apparently involves committing two nuclear submarines plus God knows what else... instead of just torpedoing the rigs and dealing with the problem that way.
Man.

That felt like something torn completely out of context. It was like the US wasn't fighitng a vicious war in their own home at all.

But I guess the devs wanted submarine insertion (cool setup!) yet they ALSO wanted a Littlebird ride (Hell yeah another cool setup!) so they kinda mashed those two together and wrote something up to kinda sorta join them.

It's the old problem of screenwriters: you have to learn to murder your babies. They couldn't do that.

What they should have done is have a submarine insertion mission before the American invasion, then a helicopter attack afterwards.

One interesting thought:

Before invasion

Have mission where HEROIC OOHRAH SASMARINES do a complicated submarine insertion and rescue an oil rig that's been captured by generic terrorists. Or something.

After invasion

Have mission where as part of the preliminary briefing they say "The Russians are using some oil rigs as SAM sites, they have to be cleared out before we go in. The oil workers are being used as human shields."

"So, we're going to do another raid like the one in _________?"

"Nah. The Yanks have a Seawolf on the way, those rigs are gonna be eating torpedos in another hour."



Think it would work?

I thought something with Gulf of Mexico would work better if they REALLY REALLY wanted to have a submarine insertion somewhere. That or have the 6th Fleet blow up oil rigs left and right while OOORAHOOAH special forces try to secure intelligence/tap into Russian comms/whatever on one of them.

It would allow you to also have an escape from a collapsing rig because 6th Fleet cannot coordinate with their own special forces, as evident in the next mission where they begin to shell the CRITICAL ENEMY INSTALLATION errr I mean random gulag with the SAS and Seals still in there.

Or dispose of an oil rig whatsoever, and have Seals infiltrate a Russian port to blow up their SSBNs with limpet mines.

But that would require changing the rotating logo before the mission and man voice actors would have to yell "SANDERSON!" instead of "ROACH!"

EDIT: Which I suppose is a valid concern, since lots of VA lines have the player character's name in them ; Then again, they made some specifically for Allen for his grand total of one pointless mission in Afghanistan.

Didn't you have to rescue some of those workers in the mission? I suppose that could indicate the rig workers were foreign nationals or something, because why would they hold their own civvies hostage? That was my theory on it, anyway.

But then, as others have said, the MW2 storyline is best handled by not thinking about it, and just listening to Hans Zimmer's awesome score as you blow some shit up.

RogueIce wrote:Didn't you have to rescue some of those workers in the mission? I suppose that could indicate the rig workers were foreign nationals or something, because why would they hold their own civvies hostage? That was my theory on it, anyway.

Nobody said anything about them being foreign nationals, just "rig workers".

Yeah, it would make more sense if that was the case. Maybe it was, but no character in the game ever says that

RogueIce wrote:But then, as others have said, the MW2 storyline is best handled by not thinking about it, and just listening to Hans Zimmer's awesome score as you blow some shit up.

The production values and game design are pretty good, and the set pieces are exciting. It's just that the story is sometimes so incredibly dumb that you can't just shut it off and pretend it doesn't happen

Like, say what was the purpose of Allen shooting up the airport, again?

Task Force 141 wanted to get Makharov ; Makharov was right there. Allen had a fucking machine gun.

The solution seemed obvious.

I know Shepherd was a psycho and wanted war (why is he allowed to do these sorts of operations without oversight again?) but how he managed to sell it to Allen was beyond me.

"Go and shoot all these civilians so that Makharov will trust you and we will be able to kill him later."

PeZook wrote:Nobody said anything about them being foreign nationals, just "rig workers".

Yeah, it would make more sense if that was the case. Maybe it was, but no character in the game ever says that

Indeed. Oh well. It was a pretty cool entrance.

PeZook wrote:The production values and game design are pretty good, and the set pieces are exciting. It's just that the story is sometimes so incredibly dumb that you can't just shut it off and pretend it doesn't happen

Well, I managed to, but then I'm kinda inconsistent with that. MW2's story didn't bug me, but I was pissed off beyond words about how dumb Army of Two's story was. Go figure.

Maybe in MW2's case, it helped that the first thing I ever played of it was the "Suspension" Special Ops mission. Fighting desperately across the bridge to the tune of "The Enemy of My Enemy" was just so epic and awesome to me that I was just sold on the game right there.

Army of Two didn't have anything like that to trigger my inner fanboy (though a gold plated M-4 with all the tacticool I could fit on it was pretty awesome).

PeZook wrote:Like, say what was the purpose of Allen shooting up the airport, again?

Task Force 141 wanted to get Makharov ; Makharov was right there. Allen had a fucking machine gun.

The solution seemed obvious.

I know Shepherd was a psycho and wanted war (why is he allowed to do these sorts of operations without oversight again?) but how he managed to sell it to Allen was beyond me.

"Go and shoot all these civilians so that Makharov will trust you and we will be able to kill him later."

Yeah...I got nothing. Unless Allen was just the dumbest soldier in the entire military history of the world and just took anything a three-star told him as the gospel truth.

But yeah, it made no sense. Pretty sure one of the rules of undercover operations is "don't massacre innocent civilians". He should've just gunned down Makharov and as many of his men as he could and accepted whatever happened to him. Who knows, maybe the Russians might have been grateful at him preventing it, if he survived.

A simple change in writing could've done that, by substituting Makharov with some lieutenant of his, so that Allen needed to gain his trust before getting into gun range of Makharov. Even then, though, yeah, the first rule of undercover is that you don't murder people.

Of course with some clever writing, that could've been turned into an advantage: could've been told as the reason why Shepard wanted a hastily trained soldier rather than a smart and experienced (and Russian speaking...how come Allen was able to pass for a Russian? ) undercover CIA operative - he wouldn't be able to tell when to call it in and get the fuck out.

EDIT: It's also interesting that nobody started asking pointed questions, like "Hey, why has that dead American been shot point-blank with a pistol? None of our CT people reported ever getting that close to any of the shooters..."

PeZook wrote:A simple change in writing could've done that, by substituting Makharov with some lieutenant of his, so that Allen needed to gain his trust before getting into gun range of Makharov. Even then, though, yeah, the first rule of undercover is that you don't murder people.

Yep. And they could've gone and shot up some military base or something. Still pretty bad, but at least something some dumb PFC could have been more believably sold on as "doing what needs to be done."

PeZook wrote:Of course with some clever writing, that could've been turned into an advantage: could've been told as the reason why Shepard wanted a hastily trained soldier rather than a smart and experienced (and Russian speaking...how come Allen was able to pass for a Russian? ) undercover CIA operative - he wouldn't be able to tell when to call it in and get the fuck out.

Yeah, could have put that somewhere. Heck, change the guy's name from Allen to some vaugley Russian sounding surname (but with an American given name) to imply he was second generation immigrant or something. Thus indicating he knew Russian only by virtue of growing up around people who spoke it, rather than any brains on his part.

PeZook wrote:EDIT: It's also interesting that nobody started asking pointed questions, like "Hey, why has that dead American been shot point-blank with a pistol? None of our CT people reported ever getting that close to any of the shooters..."

Yeah. Honestly, it seems like there were more people involved in the "conspiracy" than just Sheppard and Makharov, as the Russians were clearly just itching for an excuse, any excuse, to go invade the USA.

And of course there's the other NPC members of the team, who are Russians and can be killed, yet the government focuses only on Allen.

Who knows, if MW3 has Price and Soap "uncover" all that, I might give them some credit in the story department. Not much, but some.

RogueIce wrote: Yep. And they could've gone and shot up some military base or something. Still pretty bad, but at least something some dumb PFC could have been more believably sold on as "doing what needs to be done."

There's plenty of ways. They just didn't think about setting Allen up as a character at all, it seems. Almost as if they were itching to get on with the cool setpieces and stolen action movie scenes

RogueIce wrote:Yeah, could have put that somewhere. Heck, change the guy's name from Allen to some vaugley Russian sounding surname (but with an American given name) to imply he was second generation immigrant or something. Thus indicating he knew Russian only by virtue of growing up around people who spoke it, rather than any brains on his part.

That would've been pretty elegant, yeah. Also subtle, so nah, who cares

RogueIce wrote:Yeah. Honestly, it seems like there were more people involved in the "conspiracy" than just Sheppard and Makharov, as the Russians were clearly just itching for an excuse, any excuse, to go invade the USA.

And of course there's the other NPC members of the team, who are Russians and can be killed, yet the government focuses only on Allen.

Frankly, with such a flimsy excuse, they could've just dispensed with it altogether. It's telling that a newspaper headline some time later goes "World condemns USA for airport attack", implying the entire damn world believes Russia's flimsy excuse and supports Russia's genocidal retribution.

RogueIce wrote:Who knows, if MW3 has Price and Soap "uncover" all that, I might give them some credit in the story department. Not much, but some.

If they "uncover" something "more" it will just mean more conspirators everywhere

Of course conspiracies can be cool, when you have no idea who to trust. But that does have to handled smart, too.

Soap: "So... it was you all along!"

Price: "Silly boy, I played you like a fool for all these years and you ate it up!"

Everyone else: "WTF?"

Yeah conspiracies. It gets pretty bad, especially once the conspiracy mindset sets in. Then you have counter-conspiracies and old-fashioned non-conspiratorial but dubiously moral black ops.

Well, captain Price did supposedly die aboard the Tirpitz...and yet lives!

He is the grand architect of it all! An arcane eldricht being that feeds on violence and death!

That would be kinda awesome when you think about it

the airport thing was sold as "makaroff is a mercenary and is working for someone, get in with makaroff's crew to get to the source"

at that point makaroff wasnt the end goal

It would explain some of the absurdities...he's the one who drove Russia to militarise so much whilst distracting the rest of the world somehow....

You know, this suddenly makes an alarming amount of sense

Artemas wrote:the airport thing was sold as "makaroff is a mercenary and is working for someone, get in with makaroff's crew to get to the source"

at that point makaroff wasnt the end goal

No, actually it wasn't. I just replied mission briefings for both missions where Shepard explains Allen's job, and it's all about Makarov. Makarov fights his own war and has no rules, Makarov is the prize, etc.

It's mentioned that he's a mercenary in the intro to "Cliffhanger" (second real mission), except he isn't and that's said in the NEXT mission briefing.

It would be far, far better if they did remember to stay consistent and add this all-important line about finding Makarov's paymaster, or alternatively replaced Makarov with a lieutenant of his.

But I already mentioned how MW1 did its presentation far better than 2.

PeZook wrote:It would allow you to also have an escape from a collapsing rig because 6th Fleet cannot coordinate with their own special forces, as evident in the next mission where they begin to shell the CRITICAL ENEMY INSTALLATION errr I mean random gulag with the SAS and Seals still in there.

I got the feeling that that was General Shepard's fault. For one, his indifference to "danger close," for another, I think on some level he would have been just as happy with the outcome "Captain Price killed by friendly fire."

Then again, I'm rather confused about how much he knew and when he knew it.

Ummm. Weren't Shepard and Makarof in on it together?

That was the impression I got.

I could be totally wrong.

But I thought that Shepard sent someone to be framed in order to get Makarof his invasion which lets him do his coup as part of "saving America".