Fired Cop On a Murderous Rampage in SoCal

[Dominus Atheos]

Depending on how much of a pedantic dick KS feels like being today, there is also Depraved-Heart Murder principle which Webster's defines as "A murder resulting from an act of reckless disregard for the safety of others."

As for case law, there's Commonwealth v. Malone, in which a 17 year-old was convicted of 2nd degree murder, after he and a friend played "Russian Roulette" with a gun loaded with a blank and the friend "lost", on said principle.

[Alyeska]

Depending on how much of a pedantic dick KS feels like being today

And there you go acting like an arrogant prick. How about less attitude and more discussion? KS has repeatedly said that the police shootings of the innocent bystanders deserve punishment.

KS has pointed out there are circumstances that allow the police to fire without warning. But they are still required to positively identify the target. Since those three people got shot without having been identified, the police in question are in guilty of multiple crimes. Everyone in this thread has expressed interest in seeing them punished for those crimes, including KS.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Depending on how much of a pedantic dick KS feels like being today, there is also Depraved-Heart Murder principle which Webster's defines as "A murder resulting from an act of reckless disregard for the safety of others."

From page 3;

They certainly do deserve it because on the face of it that is what they have done. Attempted to murder someone.

I would like to see that but like I said before it depends on all the facts.

I think you are misinterpreting my posts. I'm commenting on what I think will be the most likely charge and not what I hope or think they deserve they'll get. I suspect you will not acknowledge this though.

As for case law, there's Commonwealth v. Malone, in which a 17 year-old was convicted of 2nd degree murder, after he and a friend played "Russian Roulette" with a gun loaded with a blank and the friend "lost", on said principle.

All fine and good except Los Angeles is in California. I can't really give you a hard time though. California's criminal code is a bit different than Utah's which is why I felt that manslaughter would be the most likely charge.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Given what happened to the last people who were driving a vehicle that resembled Dorner's... some might call that justifiable self defense.

(Not serious there. It was just there... waiting to be said and I cannot resist a good straight line with which to deadpan.)

This incident has been talked about quite a bit during briefings. The general consensus is that those officers by their incredibly stupid actions have damaged the reputation of police everywhere and not just in LA.

So, what do we know? We know that any reasonable officer would know that there are a lot of blue pickup trucks and that if they were wrong, they might shoot and kill an innocent person. We also know that they are specifically prohibited from firing at a moving vehicle (outside really strange situations)

Manslaughter generally covers death during recklessly performed lawful actions where there was no intent to cause death (for example, unsafely operating heavy machinery where death is not intended but is a foreseeable consequence for a legally reasonable person), or unlawful actions where there was no intent to cause death (someone dying as a result of a bar fight). Their actions were not lawful actions (unjustified use of force).

Shooting at someone qualifies as intent to cause death. That moves the matter up to murder. They were not behaving with recklessness, but under CA state law, "with an abandoned and malignant heart". They were going to kill someone, they might have wanted a specific target, but did not give a damn if they hit someone else--which they knew was a strong possibility.

2nd degree murder.

Conceded. I forgot that California's criminal code language is much more unique than that of Utah's. In Utah manslaughter is a 2nd degree felony and we have only one kind of murder. Well, we do have aggravated murder but that is capital crime.

Just to sting the article you posted a bit

They did indeed. After refusing to investigate the matter as a domestic one--despite the father of the victim begging them to--for 26 years. They instead blamed the killing on "unidentified latino male burglars".

Just saying.

Not really a sting since it was about the LAPD improving itself. Sounds like an improvement to me.

Only one type of person just "decides" to kill innocent people. Serial killers, and they start before their thirties and dont post manifestos. Spree killers who post up manifestos have reasons. They might even actually be good reasons (sometimes. Not always or even most of the time, but sometimes. Nor am I saying that the good reasons justify their actions, but rather, that the reasons themselves might be considered moral goods). They are just crazy and do not "express their discontent" through socially legally or morally appropriate channels (now THAT right there, is a euphamism and understatement). This may extend to very tenuous connections to the people who have wronged them (or "wronged" them).

I'd rather not get drawn into a semantic discussion on what the word "decision" can mean. I use it in the sense that Dorner posted a list of violations by the LAPD so that he could justify to the world his decision to murder people and create sympathizers. I'd say he was successful in creating sympathizers, even among people here at SDN. Of course they condemn his actions but they "understand" it.

Wager on it? If I am right, I owe you a drink the next time I am in SLC, if the converse is true, you owe me one? Say, set the benchmark for rightness on criminal charges being pressed? The terms there are of course negotiable.

Deal. Let's set the benchmark in the area of criminal homicide (murder, manslaughter, etc). It would be a shame if I won easily on something like "discharging a firearm within the city limits".

[RogueIce]

Well, early morning on 2/7/2013 two LAPD officers were fired on by someone believed to be Dorner simply for just following him. I guess a citizen waved down these officers and reported he saw a man that resembled Dorner driving a pickup truck. The two officers found the pickup truck and followed it. The driver got out and fired on them with a rifle which grazed one officers head.

Given what happened to the last people who were driving a vehicle that resembled Dorner's... some might call that justifiable self defense.

(Not serious there. It was just there... waiting to be said and I cannot resist a good straight line with which to deadpan.)

Even as a joke, it's pretty wrong and misses a very key fact: this incident happened before the newspaper ladies truck was shot up. From CNN's timeline of events:

- Thursday (2/7/13), shortly after 1 a.m. PT: LAPD officer shot in Corona (this was the 'shot while following' quoted above)
- Thursday, about 1:35 a.m. PT: Officer killed, another shot in Riverside
- Thursday, about 5:15 a.m. PT: Police shoot two in Torrance in 'mistaken identity'

So about four hours before they shot at the newspaper truck, two officers were shot at for following someone they believed to be Dorner, and a half hour after that shooting two more officers were ambushed and one killed.

If you can understand why Dorner is doing what he's doing, maybe you can understand why those officers in Torrance may have been more than a little jumpy? Certainly gives more reasons for what happened than some nefarious plot to "silence" Dorner.

Of course this does not excuse what happened: the officers may have been jumpy but quite frankly they're supposed to be better trained than that, we don't expect police officers to panic fire at any suspiciously acting trucks they may see. But it's not like what happened occured in a vacuum either, and I suspect those earlier incidences of violence against other police will probably be brought up as mitigating factors in a trial. Which yes I think they should be tried.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Dorner's actions are unsympathetic in the sense that I can't sympathize or identify with anyone so emphatically just turning off their life without a good reason. Taking responsibility for something (any usual "lots of people died, I'm atoning" suicide), making a grand statement about the political direction of your country with basically sincere motives in the wake of a serious failed coup attempt (Mishima) are to me understandable reasons to off yourself, but I can't understand this mindset, and therefore don't sympathize with it, that leads to this kind of thing... You'll be forgotten in two years, Dorner. You apparently did nothing wrong yourself, and could be working for a mercenary company somewhere in Africa right now making hand over fist between the navy and cop training. And instead you threw it all away.

No, let the bastard rot.

But let him rot according to the law, let his death be with the rigour of a legal state pursuing him legitimately.

This entirely thing just smells of a hit squad in some third world country.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Dorner's actions are unsympathetic in the sense that I can't sympathize or identify with anyone so emphatically just turning off their life without a good reason. Taking responsibility for something (any usual "lots of people died, I'm atoning" suicide), making a grand statement about the political direction of your country with basically sincere motives in the wake of a serious failed coup attempt (Mishima) are to me understandable reasons to off yourself, but I can't understand this mindset, and therefore don't sympathize with it, that leads to this kind of thing... You'll be forgotten in two years, Dorner. You apparently did nothing wrong yourself, and could be working for a mercenary company somewhere in Africa right now making hand over fist between the navy and cop training. And instead you threw it all away.

Did you read his manifesto? He admits to assaulting another officer (though that officer did use racist slang) and wishing he had put a bullet through his head.

No, let the bastard rot.

But let him rot according to the law, let his death be with the rigour of a legal state pursuing him legitimately.

This entirely thing just smells of a hit squad in some third world country.

What is your recommended strategy for capturing someone that has stated and demonstrated that that he will kill his targets and use deadly force against anyone that attempts to apprehend him. The way the law is written for persons like Dorner is for good reason. Just look at criminals who have shown this type of attitude. Most, if not all, have multiple murders of police officers on their records.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Patiently work to find out where he is sleeping. Close in on it with overwhelming force and pin him down. Give him the surrender offer when he's swept by two snipers for safety.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'd rather not get drawn into a semantic discussion on what the word "decision" can mean. I use it in the sense that Dorner posted a list of violations by the LAPD so that he could justify to the world his decision to murder people and create sympathizers. I'd say he was successful in creating sympathizers, even among people here at SDN. Of course they condemn his actions but they "understand" it.

Fair enough. Dont get me wrong, the dude is bugfuck. On the other hand, I do like to figure out "why" someone goes off and starts killing people. I do this because I reject the notion that someone can actually be "evil" in the Snidely Whiplash sort of sense, barring serial killers where whatever the fuck is wrong with them--while it is still a material and not some sort of metaphysical essentialist bullshit--is about as close to evil as one can comprehend.

It is like Bester (B5). He is a twisted fucker, but you want to know WHY he is a twisted fucker.

Deal. Let's set the benchmark in the area of criminal homicide (murder, manslaughter, etc). It would be a shame if I won easily on something like "discharging a firearm within the city limits".

Done. Though in fairness, they have almost miraculously failed to kill anyone. Just hospitalize. So we ought go with assault charges/battery/assault with a deadly/aggravated assault/whatever those are in CA or attempted murder until such time if any as they put someone in the morgue.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Patiently work to find out where he is sleeping. Close in on it with overwhelming force and pin him down. Give him the surrender offer when he's swept by two snipers for safety.

Hey as long as it doesn't officers at risk or his targets I'm all for it. However, it's more realistic that he will be found while he's awake and encountered by one or two ground teams. That's assuming he didn't plan ahead and has already driven out of the area with some type of vehicle.

Fair enough. Dont get me wrong, the dude is bugfuck. On the other hand, I do like to figure out "why" someone goes off and starts killing people. I do this because I reject the notion that someone can actually be "evil" in the Snidely Whiplash sort of sense, barring serial killers where whatever the fuck is wrong with them--while it is still a material and not some sort of metaphysical essentialist bullshit--is about as close to evil as one can comprehend.

It is like Bester (B5). He is a twisted fucker, but you want to know WHY he is a twisted fucker.

I like to know the why myself but it does seem like he told us. He is mentally ill and in his mind it is OK to kill someone if they offend you, don't give you the result you feel you deserve, and whatever else is on his list for justifications. The part where he complains on the gun control situation in the US and roughly says "I shouldn't have been able to get these weapons" demonstrates a very interesting mental state. Like he knows that he is doing is wrong but somehow it is the fault of other people.

Done. Though in fairness, they have almost miraculously failed to kill anyone. Just hospitalize. So we ought go with assault charges/battery/assault with a deadly/aggravated assault/whatever those are in CA or attempted murder until such time if any as they put someone in the morgue.

Yeah, miracle indeed.

[Broomstick]

Patiently work to find out where he is sleeping. Close in on it with overwhelming force and pin him down. Give him the surrender offer when he's swept by two snipers for safety.

Hey as long as it doesn't officers at risk or his targets I'm all for it. However, it's more realistic that he will be found while he's awake and encountered by one or two ground teams. That's assuming he didn't plan ahead and has already driven out of the area with some type of vehicle.

He apparently has had some flight training, although not an actual license. Flying out of the area is a possibility and local airports are also on the alert. The recent weather in that area would have mad a small airplane/partially trained flyer taking to the air suicide, but once the weather clears it's possible he might attempt to steal a small airplane, some sort of single-engine Cessna or Piper. If he's really thought ahead he might have some sort of ultralight stashed away and only need a few hundred feet to get airborne.

I think it unlikely he'd do that - cars and SUV's has greater utility, operate in more kinds of weather, carry a shit ton more payload (gotta have room for the guns, right?) and are much easier to conceal in a crowd of traffic, but wheels aren't his only option.

I like to know the why myself but it does seem like he told us. He is mentally ill and in his mind it is OK to kill someone if they offend you, don't give you the result you feel you deserve, and whatever else is on his list for justifications. The part where he complains on the gun control situation in the US and roughly says "I shouldn't have been able to get these weapons" demonstrates a very interesting mental state. Like he knows that he is doing is wrong but somehow it is the fault of other people.

That attitude is hardly limited to him, except most people who blame others for their bad actions don't ramp up to actual murder. I keep think of the classic wife beater line "she made me hit her!"

[Knife]

They guy is really unbalanced, so I'd be surprised if he had some sort of James Bond egress plan. He probably holed up somewhere familiar.

[PeZook]

But he warned he'd use TPS to counter BPP and develop INT to kill HVTs in the BWOING!

The way he tossed around acronyms in that manifesto of his really made him look like a teenage armchair general, but I don't want to Internetalyze him. It's clear he's disturbed (Duh, he started to kill people over corruption), so a better question is if it was possible to have caught that earlier? I mean, he himself describes an incident where he assaulted an officer...

[Alyrium Denryle]

But he warned he'd use TPS to counter BPP and develop INT to kill HVTs in the BWOING!

The way he tossed around acronyms in that manifesto of his really made him look like a teenage armchair general, but I don't want to Internetalyze him. It's clear he's disturbed (Duh, he started to kill people over corruption), so a better question is if it was possible to have caught that earlier? I mean, he himself describes an incident where he assaulted an officer...

True, but that is because the officer referred to him using a racial slur. In some jurisdictions, that is actually an affirmative defense to an assault charge.

[weemadando]

Apparently they've found him in Big Bear, but there's an ongoing siege/gunfight.

Inland CHP radio apparently has been managing it http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audi ... eedId=8710

[The Duchess of Zeon]

At least one officer has been airlifted for trauma care already. They have him holed up in a house he reached in a car cash after he did a home-invasion to secure a vehicle at another house, with heavy gunfire exchanged during the entire chase and now standoff.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

At least two county deputies were wounded and possibly also the Fish and Game officer who first found him and exchanged gunfire with him.

[weemadando]

Seems a Marshals service air unit just reported positive ID on the suspect.

Lots of other units heading into the area, Command trucks and air units ferrying SWAT teams have been on the feed a bit.

Given there's already been officers injured in this exchange I can't see this ending well.

Also, if you live anywhere near Big Bear, sounds like ALL the roads are getting closed.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

He was apparently driven back into the cabin after trying a breakout with smoke and grenades, though not much information is getting out. They're expecting he'll try another breakout attempt under cover of darkness and are bringing in all the reinforcements they can for it; he's refused all attempts to communicate and may be using the television, since there's news copters around, to spot police teams for him so he can direct fire on them. I don't know why they can't order those news copters to get the hell out; you can see the tactical teams and their positions at the surrounding buildings very clearly on the feed from them.

[Sea Skimmer]

News is saying now police were told by the person he stole the vehicle from it had almost no gas, they chased the vehicle, he abandon it after a fight in which nobody was hurt, the ran into a nearby cabin, and only then a gunfight took place that wounded the two deputies when they first approached. I see this ending via sniper fire.

Apparently this area is very very close to where his burning truck was found several days ago. Hundreds of yards only. He may have been hiding right under the noses of police this whole time.

[Sea Skimmer]

Seems I misheard, this area is well away from the original search area and burning truck, but only a few hundred yards from where the police HQ and press area for the search has been.

[weemadando]

And now the internet is saying that police deployed incendiaries of some sort and the cabin is well ablaze. Apparently fire crews are not being brought forward.

Can't wait to see the various theories that emerge.

[Havok]

Yeah looks like his trip is over.

[Agent Fisher]

And now the internet is saying that police deployed incendiaries of some sort and the cabin is well ablaze. Apparently fire crews are not being brought forward.

Can't wait to see the various theories that emerge.

They deployed tear gas grenades, which have been known to catch structures on fire. And apparently, there is ammo that is cooking off, so that's probably why fire crews aren't being brought forward.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The pictures of the burning building don't look anything like the one he was holed up in.