What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Jub »

Batman wrote:Actually yes they are. RPGs typically have half to 2/3rds the 'muzzle' velocity of a pistol leave alone a full-up rifle. Plus, they're heavier and more unwieldy so harder to aim especially in snapshot situations. Shouldn't make 'that' much difference at the lower end of typical infantry fighting ranges but it likely 'will' make a difference.
I should have elaborated more. Standard RPGs aren't flying at the jogging pace that games and movies show them to be. Nor do they tend to corkscrew through the air wildly or land meters away from where you aimed them. The projectiles fly pretty quickly and their mass and design means they tend to go pretty straight when let go. They aren't a great anti-infantry weapon, but if we had to start handing them out to soldiers as a stop gap for anti-werewolf duty they wouldn't be impossible to land a hit with. A dedicated anti-werewolf RPG, should such a thing be deemed needed, could be designed to increase the projectile velocity while keeping the warhead weight down and creating a much more portable, accurate, and role appropriate weapon.

That said, I'd imagine that a better solution could be found given enough time. I think it's more likely that shotgun round sized grenades and something like the AA-12 would make a comeback. Or maybe something like the old electronically fired Metal Storm project might come back into vogue for throwing shit down range fast enough to disable a tough beast.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Purple »

Jub wrote:They aren't a great anti-infantry weapon,
Yea... how about not. The RPG series, the RPG-7 in particular is a devastating anti infantry weapon owing in no small part to its various anti infantry rounds including but not limited to fragmentation, thermobaric and airburst fragmentation projectiles. The thing is basically a handheld field gun. I'll bet you any money that the werewolf in question won't much care to point out the difference between being blown up by a direct hit and being shredded by a bunch of supersonic steel fragments or burned by a wave of fire from a few meters away.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Jub »

Purple wrote:
Jub wrote:They aren't a great anti-infantry weapon,
Yea... how about not. The RPG series, the RPG-7 in particular is a devastating anti infantry weapon owing in no small part to its various anti infantry rounds including but not limited to fragmentation, thermobaric and airburst fragmentation projectiles. The thing is basically a handheld field gun. I'll bet you any money that the werewolf in question won't much care to point out the difference between being blown up by a direct hit and being shredded by a bunch of supersonic steel fragments or burned by a wave of fire from a few meters away.
Shit, I guess I haven't stayed up to date on the anti-personal uses of those weapons systems. It makes sense though given the payload those warheads could carry. I also think that if the aim is simply to wound the beast in question badly enough that it's no longer a threat the way you do the damage shouldn't matter.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Borgholio »

If we talk about men in powered armor with shields instead of werewolves, the same idea applies. Unless there is some kind of incredible inertial dampening, hitting a guy in a power suit with an RPG or a tank shell is going to turn him into chunky salsa inside his armor due to the sheer inertia transfer. So you may not need a special weapon to pierce his armor or shield, if you can kill the guy inside by blasting him with a 120mm HE round.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by biostem »

Borgholio wrote:If we talk about men in powered armor with shields instead of werewolves, the same idea applies. Unless there is some kind of incredible inertial dampening, hitting a guy in a power suit with an RPG or a tank shell is going to turn him into chunky salsa inside his armor due to the sheer inertia transfer. So you may not need a special weapon to pierce his armor or shield, if you can kill the guy inside by blasting him with a 120mm HE round.

Similarly, it impressed me when, in The Incredibles, how Syndrome had those stick foam turrets to protect his computer - you need not kill your opponent in order to defeat them.

Speaking of which - has anyone ever just encased Wolverine or Deadpool in a solid block of metal to get rid of them? Seems like you could just restrain them, then dowse them in molten metal until they're fully encased...
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Borgholio wrote:If we talk about men in powered armor with shields instead of werewolves, the same idea applies. Unless there is some kind of incredible inertial dampening, hitting a guy in a power suit with an RPG or a tank shell is going to turn him into chunky salsa inside his armor due to the sheer inertia transfer. So you may not need a special weapon to pierce his armor or shield, if you can kill the guy inside by blasting him with a 120mm HE round.
Hell he'd surely die just from a non explosive round!

Also worth considering even if the target is tough enough to stop conventional fragmentation for whatever reason, you could always use an expanding rod warhead to slice them in half, or more elaborately multi liner EFP warheads have now reached a reasonable degree of reliability and can be constructed from reactive metals that are well, burning metal ignited by the explosion or the force of impact with another hard object (both approaches have advantages, bonus that anything left is non hazardous unless you wood chipper it). These devices have already been demonstrated in weights of less the one pound, making them suitable for use as grenades or small rocket warheads.

This is a life fire example from about a decade ago with a several EFP pound charge.
Image

SMILEY FACE OF DEATH

Blow is a computer simulation of how a multi liner intended for radial projection as you'd want in a grenade would look.
Image

Both the above came out of PDFs on DTIC if anyone is wondering.

Incendiary tungsten slugs at ~2,200m/s are probably going to be pretty effective against a target to which any level of 'can die' rules apply, even if they only weigh perhaps 1-2 grams apiece. These sort of warheads burn so hot they can make concrete explode from the thermal shock. For now its functionally limited only by our ability to make the charge liners with precision (required precision is relative to the entire size of the charge, not absolute, smaller is harder) but the US military is already experimenting with 3D printing explosive warheads of this sort. So that should take care of that problem within reason. Reactive metal costs and difficultly vary with application, but nothing is a deal breaker and the tech was implemented in some applications more then 15 years ago, such as JASSM warhead.

Toughness alone isn't a good basis to work from if you want melee, though I would suggest that layered protection helps in all instances. But generally humans have been keeping weapons ahead of protection for a long time now and a lot of scope is left for better explosives. That basic problem applies of the defense has to work 100% of the time, or you die, while the attack merely needs to work often enough to be effective in combat. Modern weapons are predicated on long ranges, if the enemy can't shoot back with similar effects life is just too easy and lots more weapons will 'work' as personal arms, like one of those 12 shot revolver grenade launchers. Load HEAT grenades in the sucker and let fly. And it would not be unreasonable to have ~30 more grenades on your person as reloads with various warheads.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Sky Captain »

What if a supermonster can be be killed with ranged weapons, but require a ton of firepower to do so like calling an airstrike or multiple shots from tank gun which may not be available all the time. But the same monster can also be killed by slicing it apart with a sword made from some sort of super expensive unobtainium. It would make sense to outfit your elite troops with those swords to give them a chance if only other man portable solution that reliably would kill that monster is nuclear RPG
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Zeropoint »

Hmm. Perhaps this results in "monster superiority" becoming the deciding factor on the battlefield. As long as YOUR super elite unkillable dudes are keeping THEIR super elite unkillable dudes tied up, your normal soldiers can get on with the fighting. As soon as one side's monster troops gain a decisive advantage, the battlefield becomes unsurvivable for the other side's mere mortal troops. In some respects this would resemble the issue with air superiority on today's battlefield--ground units are pretty well hosed when the sky is full of enemy bombers and attack craft.

Of course, this still doesn't produce an environment where the rank and file soldier carries a sword.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Simon_Jester »

It also implies that the best counter to a monster is another monster, just as the best counter to a tank is another tank, the best counter to a jet fighter is another jet fighter, and so on.

One may argue that the real best counter to a tank is, say, an asymmetric threat like an attack helicopter... but the attack helicopter achieves this by being about as deadly as the tank, not by being a far weaker platform with a weapon that can hopefully kill the more powerful enemy.

Which is what you get when you have a merely mortal soldier with an unobtainium spear fighting a superhuman monster that sneers at bullets.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by bilateralrope »

How about this:
- Personal shields that can protect the user from most harm. Everyone has them.
- There is a material that just ignores the shields. Bullets made from it would work. But only one group knows how to make things with that material and, while they are willing to sell melee weapons, they are not willing to sell bullets. Because being the only group with shield piercing bullets is a major military advantage that they are not willing to give up.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Borgholio »

One may argue that the real best counter to a tank is, say, an asymmetric threat like an attack helicopter... but the attack helicopter achieves this by being about as deadly as the tank, not by being a far weaker platform with a weapon that can hopefully kill the more powerful enemy.
Indeed, one of the deadliest threats to a tank is an individual solder with a shoulder-fired TOW missile. Pop up out of nowhere, fire a shot, knock out the tank, then run like hell. That's why most tanks have infantry support. A single guy able to knock out a main battle tank is pretty much as asymmetric as you can get.

I wonder if we could see a werewolf surrounded by normal human soldiers specifically to prevent the one random dude with an RPG from scoring a hit...
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Batman »

Surround the guy with the RPG with soldiers with assault rifles and maybe a SAW or two? They take care of the enemy infantry, RPG guy takes down the werewolf. Sort of like modern infantry vs armoured vehicles, except in this case the RPG guy has a distinct range advantage over the werewolf.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Simon_Jester »

bilateralrope wrote:How about this:
- Personal shields that can protect the user from most harm. Everyone has them.
- There is a material that just ignores the shields. Bullets made from it would work. But only one group knows how to make things with that material and, while they are willing to sell melee weapons, they are not willing to sell bullets. Because being the only group with shield piercing bullets is a major military advantage that they are not willing to give up.
Uh... in Halo, or in Mass Effect? I confess I've played neither.
Borgholio wrote:
One may argue that the real best counter to a tank is, say, an asymmetric threat like an attack helicopter... but the attack helicopter achieves this by being about as deadly as the tank, not by being a far weaker platform with a weapon that can hopefully kill the more powerful enemy.
Indeed, one of the deadliest threats to a tank is an individual solder with a shoulder-fired TOW missile. Pop up out of nowhere, fire a shot, knock out the tank, then run like hell. That's why most tanks have infantry support. A single guy able to knock out a main battle tank is pretty much as asymmetric as you can get.
Except that a shoulder-fired missile (let alone a 200 pound TOW missile launcher) is far more likely to actually work against a tank than a spear is against a monster that could, theoretically, have a machine gun of its own.
I wonder if we could see a werewolf surrounded by normal human soldiers specifically to prevent the one random dude with an RPG from scoring a hit...
If we're talking literal werewolves and envision hand to hand combat monsters, no, because they wouldn't have much utility except under very weird conditions.

If we're talking more generic threats that just happen to have some kind of works-by-magic armor or other protection against almost all weapons except special materials... maaaaybe. I'm not sure.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by bilateralrope »

Simon_Jester wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:How about this:
- Personal shields that can protect the user from most harm. Everyone has them.
- There is a material that just ignores the shields. Bullets made from it would work. But only one group knows how to make things with that material and, while they are willing to sell melee weapons, they are not willing to sell bullets. Because being the only group with shield piercing bullets is a major military advantage that they are not willing to give up.
Uh... in Halo, or in Mass Effect? I confess I've played neither.
Neither. Just an idea for a setting where a sci-fi military using a lot of melee weapons would make sense. What Biostem was asking for in his starting post.

I'm wondering if it has any plausibility issues I haven't seen.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Kingmaker »

bilateralrope wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:How about this:
- Personal shields that can protect the user from most harm. Everyone has them.
- There is a material that just ignores the shields. Bullets made from it would work. But only one group knows how to make things with that material and, while they are willing to sell melee weapons, they are not willing to sell bullets. Because being the only group with shield piercing bullets is a major military advantage that they are not willing to give up.
Uh... in Halo, or in Mass Effect? I confess I've played neither.
Neither. Just an idea for a setting where a sci-fi military using a lot of melee weapons would make sense. What Biostem was asking for in his starting post.

I'm wondering if it has any plausibility issues I haven't seen.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by bilateralrope »

Kingmaker wrote:Buy space swords, melt them down, and cast them into bullets.
You know how I said "only one group knows how to make things with that material" ?

That includes melting down the swords. Anyone trying to make things out of the shield piercing material has run into various problems. Only one group knows how to solve them.

Don't think of the weapons as a solid block of metal. Think of them as having a very complex internal structure.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by lance »

bilateralrope wrote:
Kingmaker wrote:Buy space swords, melt them down, and cast them into bullets.
You know how I said "only one group knows how to make things with that material" ?

That includes melting down the swords. Anyone trying to make things out of the shield piercing material has run into various problems. Only one group knows how to solve them.

Don't think of the weapons as a solid block of metal. Think of them as having a very complex internal structure.
So more vibroblade, than silver sword?
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by madd0ct0r »

or phase shifted, or the cutting edge is actually one dimension along. The physics of personal shields are outright weird and impossible, so why do people always default to the lump of iron for the weapon?
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by biostem »

Yeah... I'm more interested in how to increase the "plausibility factor" than the actual hard science. The only real sense I'm getting is "nothing else works except for these special melee weapons" and "said special melee weapons can't just be broken down to make a bunch of bullets or other ranged weapon".

Since werewolves were brought up - imagine if you had a werewolf that literally could not be harmed by anything - not even suffering from the concussive force of explosives - save for these ultra special swords that almost nobody can make, and can't otherwise be turned into bullets.

I just sounds so preposterous, which is why I've tapped you all for some potentially feasible explanations... I just dislike the whole "cuz I said so" type of excuse.

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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Simon_Jester »

The big problem is that there are so many reasons to use guns, not swords, when both are available, that finding a justification is hard. Unless you give people a surefire defense against ranged weapons... [shrugs]

All the examples I can think of:

1) The protagonists are native to a realm or multiverse, throughout much of which firearms don't work, even as other technologies function as normal, due to physics being negotiable between dimensions.

[Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber; the protagonist knows how to use guns, but normal guns don't work in his home universe or many of those he travels to. To be fair, many forms of magic don't work in his home universe either- but do work in some of the places he travels to...]

2) There are beings which cannot be killed by ranged weapons for any reason because they have some flawless physical, passive defense against attack.

[Think armor or shielding that deflects all ranged attacks likely to pose a threat, or some absolute negation like "ghosts can only be harmed by silver weapons"]

3) There exists a reliable defense against virtually all ranged weapons, which fails at extremely close range. Preferably the melee weapon itself.

[Think Jedi]

4) It is routine for combatants to teleport around into point-blank range of each other, such that stabbing someone in the back with a dagger is only marginally more difficult than shooting them. This may not make guns obsolete, but it at least removes much of their tactical advantage.

[Haven't seen this one done convincingly]

5) Some environmental hazard means that having bullets or beams flying around is dangerous and could get everyone on both sides killed, whereas swinging big chunks of metal around is relatively safe. By mutual consent everyone uses swords rather than risk a disaster.

[The only example I can think of is zephyr particles from Legend of Galactic Heroes, but there are surely others]
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by madd0ct0r »

bilateralrope wrote:
Kingmaker wrote:Buy space swords, melt them down, and cast them into bullets.
You know how I said "only one group knows how to make things with that material" ?

That includes melting down the swords. Anyone trying to make things out of the shield piercing material has run into various problems. Only one group knows how to solve them.

Don't think of the weapons as a solid block of metal. Think of them as having a very complex internal structure.

can I put wings on the swords and turn them into drone missiles?
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by jwl »

Reasons why jedi don't use blasters:

>Sith and dark jedi can dodge and block blaster bolts. The whole reason you use guns is that they are meant to nigh-impossible to dodge, otherwise you may as well throw rocks at people.
>If they want ranged attacks, they can and do just use the force. Waving a hand around may not look the same as pointing a gun, but it gets the job done in the same kind of way.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

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4) It is routine for combatants to teleport around into point-blank range of each other, such that stabbing someone in the back with a dagger is only marginally more difficult than shooting them. This may not make guns obsolete, but it at least removes much of their tactical advantage.
I think a good example of this one is in The Matrix. Agents and powerful humans such as Neo can effortlessly dodge bullets at any range, so you have to get right up in their face (Dodge this!). With that said, why bother trying to shoot when Kung Fu tends to work better anyways?
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Zeropoint »

4) It is routine for combatants to teleport around into point-blank range of each other, such that stabbing someone in the back with a dagger is only marginally more difficult than shooting them. This may not make guns obsolete, but it at least removes much of their tactical advantage.
Given the choice, I'd prefer to teleport behind someone and shoot them in the back with a shotgun or rifle than to teleport behind them and stab them with a dagger.
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Re: What would it take for melee weapons to make sense...

Post by Batman »

Zeropoint wrote:
4) It is routine for combatants to teleport around into point-blank range of each other, such that stabbing someone in the back with a dagger is only marginally more difficult than shooting them. This may not make guns obsolete, but it at least removes much of their tactical advantage.
Given the choice, I'd prefer to teleport behind someone and shoot them in the back with a shotgun or rifle than to teleport behind them and stab them with a dagger.
It does however lower the incentive to use a firearm, especially in a scenario where while inherently possible, using unobtanium to make ammunition instead of stabby things is a lot harder/more expensive.
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