29th Century Federation vs. Galactic Empire(Split)

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 03:11pm

TheDarkling wrote:Duh this was before Voyager went back

Oh you mean the first time.
Who's to say Braxton didn't break out the old history book showing Voyager's course and position in the Delta Quadrant through it's journey?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 03:14pm

Thats possible I suppose except shoudlnt he have seen the report and Voyager get sent back in time etc, also why not stop Voyager going on its mission?

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 03:16pm

TheDarkling wrote:Thats possible I suppose except shoudlnt he have seen the report and Voyager get sent back in time etc, also why not stop Voyager going on its mission?

Because he was more interested in blowing it up?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 03:17pm

That Braxton was an oddball wasnt he? crazy loon.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2002-09-21 03:20pm

TheDarkling wrote:There never is a fture empire - the Empire is still born even in the movies its is a mere flicker in galatic history.

Now for the Grandfather paradox simple,

The guy comes back in time and kills his Grandfather, hes never born however he is still alive in the past this need nopt lead to a paradox because when the guy went back in time he is essentially severed from it meaning that he leaves the timestream and then become tethered in the past.

That is some hi grade crack you are smoking!

The simple answer is that whatever technology brings them back in time seperates them from the future (obvious if you think about it), remember in Trails and Tribblations Julian is worried that when they go back to the future ( ) he will never have existed but he isnt worried about not existing now, therefore whatever technology that is employed in time travel seperates the person from their future and anchors them to the past, if the alternate timelines hold true then Jullian need not be worried since he will only return to his time where everything wont be affected by his actions in the past.

Time travel creates an alternate timeline and you can't return to your own, you merely return to a VERY close facsimile. Instead, an ALTERNATE you returns to what was YOUR time from their own alternate timeline which varies just ever so slightly from yours.

Ok lets look at it this way, IF what you are saying is true how could Sela have ever existed? If there were no alternate timeline where the Federation were at war with the Klingons, there could have been no conception between the romulan and Tasha. In the Timeline of TNG post "Yesterdays Enterprise" It never occured, so where did Tasha come from? She came from a *drumroll* ALTERNATE TIMELINE/UNIVERSE.

Im sorry but alternate futures arent the way it works in trek because if it was they would never try to set the timeline straight since it cant be altered just another created and since the SF people deal with time travel often I think they know more about it than we do.

Our opinions do not override Canon evidence - its that simple.

Just because they TRY to change the future doesn't mean that they can. Heres another example: Captain Janeway in the last episode of Voyage (I know it sux, but it still is trek cannon) is very concerned about altering the timeline, however Admiral Janeway seems to not be concerned in the slightest. I feel this is because she realizes that there are multiple timelines and that she is content to create a new one where the Voyager crew (intact to the point where she time travelled to) made it home alive.

If there aren't multiple timelines, there is no reason for her to have done this. In fact she did not go back to her OWN past, but rather the past of an alternate timeline.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2002-09-21 03:20pm

Evil Jerk wrote:
An actual CHANGE.
Someone's presence alone won't cut it, also, ever heard of predestination?
Why is there a physical difference between someone's mere presence and their active participation? In "Trials and Tribble-ations", the timeline is "preserved", but we now have O'Brien in the "lineup" scene and Odo watching Uhura and Chekov buy a tribble, among other changes. These things did not happen originally, but no overall change was made.
And what if somebody worse than Palpy whom the Emperor got rid of before he became powerful appears, he becomes powerful, forms a super-empire and develops galaxy incinerating weapons.
ANY NUMBER OF THINGS COULD HAPPEN.
It's possible. Anything is possible. But is it likely? There are only 2 Sith (sometimes one) at a time. If they die, the Sith become extinct, the Force is re-balanced, and the Jedi regain their full powers and preserve the Republic forever. If you can name someone who is "Worse" than Palpatine who would likely create the Empire if Palpy wasn't around, then the Empire might come into existence anyway. But until you do, your theory is just wild speculation; the Empire will almost certainly not arise without the Sith's manipulations.

His name? Without knowing his history, where he lived, what he did, all of that? Yeah right.
If you didn't know jack about Hitler except his name, how would you go about killing him in the present, let alone the past.

Well I would just beam a bomb into Hitler's bedroom before WWII started, in the present. In the past I would walk around Munich talking to people, looking in phonebooks until I found him and THEN kill him. It's not too hard with a little investigation. Remember, no one will be expecting time traveling assassins with transporters from other galaxies.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 03:30pm

Admiral_K: I see Janeway has a mystical revelation about the nature of time, the universe and everything but keeps it to herself, yeah ok then.....

Where did Tasha come from - she came from the future that existed when the Ent-C did go back in time but she was then taken from that future and sent back in time (thus she exists twice) and the timeline is altered once the Ent-C arrives back at Narendra III to what we know as normal trek.

The very fact you brought up this episode stuns me - think on this, why send Tasha back if that weird timeline would continue to exist? the answer is it wasnt going to, the timeline would be altered back to what it should have been and thus Tasha would die at the hands of Armus - the entire point of sending Tasha back refutes your point and I cant believe your brought it up.

I may be on crack but you are drinknig paint thiner and finishing up with some nice lead chips.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2002-09-21 03:52pm

I believe I have a working theory about trek time travel that is a bit of an offshoot of the Multi Worlds theory put forth in Parallels.

Time travel as seen in star trek isn't really time travel at all, rather it is dimension shifting. If the many worlds theory is to be believed, even the slightest change in history results in a parallel world, therefore it is conceivable that you would find yourself in another dimension that is so close to your own that you don't realize the difference. Now, the people in these other dimensions are Dimension travelling as well, so when you leave your timeline, they are coming in to take your place and no one is the wiser.

While they may believe they are "changing history" they are in fact simply changing the course of an alternate reality. That is why they still have the memories of things that they changed, for instance Sisko remmembered that Gabriel Bell did not look like him in his past. Yet everyone else would think he always looked that way. If Sisko looked anything like Gabriel Bell, apparently a well known historical figure since Sisko seems to know so much about him, SURELY someone would have commented on it especially in light of the circumstances of that episode.

Now, in theory it WOULD be possible to return to your very own exact dimension, however I imagine this would be very difficult and require EXACT calculations. Additionally, there may also be something about dimensional travel that pushes you more towards alternate realities more like the one you are currently leaving. If any of you watched any of the episodes of the short live T.V. Series "Sliders" you would have an example of what I'm saying. Back to my point, when someone "returns" to "their time" they are in fact moving to another dimension. They look at changes in the past and think that THEY did them, when in reality it was most likely alternate versions of themselves. I also think that under extreme circumstances, you can also be pushed into realties that are a radically different timeline from your own (as in the mirror universe).

This explains why the Grandfather Paradox doesn't occur and how you can actually "change the past." so to speak. Its perfectly fine to kill your grandfather in another dimension because technically he isn't your grandfather. However, an "alternate you" would never exist in that timeline. But thats ok because there are millions of other timelines where he does. Besides, most people wouldn't want to kill their grandfathers anyway.

The "reality" if you will, of the situation is that you can NOT change the past. What you can do is change the course of events of a parallel dimension which may be running weeks, months, or decades either ahead or behind you. Since these worlds are infinite, there is no chance of you NOT being able to find a world at a particular point in history. I believe also, analyzing further examples from the Q they seem to understand this, in that their road if they keep walking it comes back to the beggining.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2002-09-21 04:04pm

TheDarkling wrote:Admiral_K: I see Janeway has a mystical revelation about the nature of time, the universe and everything but keeps it to herself, yeah ok then.....

Where did Tasha come from - she came from the future that existed when the Ent-C did go back in time but she was then taken from that future and sent back in time (thus she exists twice) and the timeline is altered once the Ent-C arrives back at Narendra III to what we know as normal trek.

OMG your Argument could not be more flawed if you intended it to be. In fact you just proved MY point. When you say "She came from the Future that existed" and that "she was taken from That future". What Future are you referring to? Why the future of an ALTERNATE TIMELINE. As per my theory in the previous post, the second tasha was in fact from an alternate reality/timeline which is the ONLY WAY she could possibly exist twice in the same universe. You can't argue it any other way.

The very fact you brought up this episode stuns me - think on this, why send Tasha back if that weird timeline would continue to exist? the answer is it wasnt going to, the timeline would be altered back to what it should have been and thus Tasha would die at the hands of Armus - the entire point of sending Tasha back refutes your point and I cant believe your brought it up.

I may be on crack but you are drinknig paint thiner and finishing up with some nice lead chips.

You are making a huge mistake in assuming that the Federation people are omniscient about time travel. In fact they are BARELY starting to understand some of the more intricate ways space/time interact. Why send Tasha back if that timeline would still exist? They are HOPING that it wont. The sad fact is, that it did still exist and the Enterprise D was probably destroyed, although they may have figured some way out of it we don't get to see. Should they have lived, in that reality it is as Picard feared, they would have to continue on without her. You see, their theory is based on time being Linear, but all through TNG we are CONSTANTLY being fed the opposite: That space/time are in fact NOT linear or absolute, from Q's musings, to the Wesleys "pearls of wisdom". Hell, I think thats part of the lesson Q is trying to teach in All good things.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 04:39pm

The Darkling wrote:That Braxton was an oddball wasnt he? crazy loon.

Yup, it's sad to note the quality of their Captains actually worsens after Janeway.

Eframepilot wrote:Why is there a physical difference between someone's mere presence and their active participation? In "Trials and Tribble-ations", the timeline is "preserved", but we now have O'Brien in the "lineup" scene and Odo watching Uhura and Chekov buy a tribble, among other changes. These things did not happen originally, but no overall change was made.

Because they intefered.
Had they remained on the Defiant under cloak not doing anything but observing, they would've changed absolutley nothing.
This is probably how the past observers of the 31st century do it, unless they're all as stupid as Daniels.

It's possible. Anything is possible. But is it likely? There are only 2 Sith (sometimes one) at a time. If they die, the Sith become extinct, the Force is re-balanced, and the Jedi regain their full powers and preserve the Republic forever. If you can name someone who is "Worse" than Palpatine who would likely create the Empire if Palpy wasn't around, then the Empire might come into existence anyway. But until you do, your theory is just wild speculation; the Empire will almost certainly not arise without the Sith's manipulations.

Of course it's speculation, but it is possible.
Annorax spent 200 years butchering history and never got his desired result, it could be the same in this case too.
What I said about a mega-tyrant is just an example, any number of bad or good things may happen, but it's completley random.

Well I would just beam a bomb into Hitler's bedroom before WWII started, in the present. In the past I would walk around Munich talking to people, looking in phonebooks until I found him and THEN kill him. It's not too hard with a little investigation. Remember, no one will be expecting time traveling assassins with transporters from other galaxies.

But since they don't know anything about the history of the Empire, they would have to research it quite a bit in the past, and in the time they spent asking questions, Palpatine would nail them.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 05:36pm

Admiral_K: Forced to choose by your theories on time travel and people who study it in depth in high school, guess whom im going to choose.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2002-09-21 07:30pm

Wow Good one.

Are you attempting to say that you feel High school students are smarter than me, or are you saying that you actually know some high school students who have "studied time travel in depth" from whom you obviously draw your material. Either way, it only proves you are an idiot.

First of all, any "real" theories on time travel asside, I am referring to Trek time travel and Trek time travel alone. Based on on screen evidence, i.e. people who are involved in the time travel notice that their timeline is changed when they return home, and the fact that the multiple instances where a paradox should have incured as citied in previous posts, my theor makes more sense then anything I've seen you post.

Obviously you have no rebuttal for my argument that there must be multiple timelines in order for a person to "exist twice". Your notion that through some technobabbular excuse every person who ever time traveled is protected from changes they make in the time line is also utterly rediculous. You obviously don't seem to realize that if there were no alternate timelines, any change to history that would in the end prevent that change from occuring would cause the breakdown of time itself. Thats what good ole Doc Brown was always afraid of in Back to the future. Thats why in the recent remake of The Time Machine he could never go back and save his wife... because SHE was the reason he made it in the first place. If she never died, he had no reason to make the time machine. If he had no reason to make the time machine he could not save her from death and so on and so forth.

That is what happens if you subscribe to the concept of Linear time travel, in that there is only one timeline and that any changes you make to your past will affect your future. However Trek doesn't subscribe to that theory and this is demonstrated in the evidence already presented. To argue anything else is to show complete ignorance of common sense and logic.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 07:49pm

No I meant that I take the word of the Trek time travel experts over your interpretation on canon.

You are going off of theories we have on time travel in RL, they are going on facts they have in their universe, if they think a timeline needs preserving or that you really can alter your own history then im inclined to believe them.

All thats necessary for timetravel to work is that the changes travel forward in time and that whatever device thats used in time travel seperates the person from the future as they enter the past.

An example.

>>>>A>>>>>>>>>B

Ok at A the Grandfather is born and B is where the time traveler leaves the future.

A>>>>>C>>>>>B

C is where the time traveler kills his grandfather.

A>>>>>CXXXXXXXXX

X Represents the new time line.
There is no B so the time traveler can not come back again - true howeevr the time line has already been changed, there is no need for him to come back he already exists at C.

Simply the events after C do not translate back into C due to the fact that whatever device removed that person from the future and its effects and tied them to the past at C.

This fits in with the need to preserve the timeline (since there is only one timeline) and the multiple so called timelines are simply caused by peoples differing choices as has already been said

It may not be iron clad but its the way it works in trek and canon has priority over real life theories.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 07:53pm

The way it works in Trek canon is that an alternate universe is created, that's why a person who kills his grandfather won't dissappear, any other way is baseless conjecture.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 07:56pm

No thats not the way it works according to the characters and I take them as a higher authority that you.
We also have evidence pointing away from your conclusion and therefore the grandfather paradox does not apply.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 08:17pm

TheDarkling wrote:No thats not the way it works according to the characters and I take them as a higher authority that you.

Therefore event horizons have cracks?

We also have evidence pointing away from your conclusion and therefore the grandfather paradox does not apply.

Evidence? Where?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 08:34pm

Whatever ST defines as an event Horizon of a singularity does (also the fact is we are talking about experts on time travel from the 31st (where they study it high school proving its common place), 29th, 27th, 24th, 23rd).

Evidence - the already mentioned Defiant incident does it nicely unless you are saying that the Defiant not going back in time caused another universe to form (thats right inaction caused a new timeline to form - why??).
If the Defiant had come from an alternate reality then Our Defiant not going back in time would not affect Our timeline since the Defiant came from another reality.

The Ent-C is another incident why did Guinan think the reality was wrong? since it was created and she had always lived in that "timeline" unless you are saying she has a sense of all "timelines" in which case she should always thinik shes in the wrong timeline Unless you are going to tell me there is a "perfect" timeline or some such nosense.
We also have the fact that the produces decide to jump from timelin to timeline for no apparent reason.

The incident on DS9 when O'Brien was time jumping was he always coming back to another reality since he institutes changes there?

At the end of the day we have a theory on how it would work in our world, they have done it and found out otherwise, htey know more than we do so Im going with them on this one.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 08:42pm

TheDarkling wrote:Whatever ST defines as an event Horizon of a singularity does (also the fact is we are talking about experts on time travel from the 31st (where they study it high school proving its common place), 29th, 27th, 24th, 23rd).

When the 31st century lets complete and utter morons like Daniels play with timelines that they think are solid, I wouldn't put too much faith in their teaching abilities..

Evidence - the already mentioned Defiant incident does it nicely unless you are saying that the Defiant not going back in time caused another universe to form (thats right inaction caused a new timeline to form - why??).

Future Odo's action.

If the Defiant had come from an alternate reality then Our Defiant not going back in time would not affect Our timeline since the Defiant came from another reality.

It did not come from an alternate reality, that was it's reality until Odo changed it.

The Ent-C is another incident why did Guinan think the reality was wrong? since it was created and she had always lived in that "timeline" unless you are saying she has a sense of all "timelines" in which case she should always thinik shes in the wrong timeline Unless you are going to tell me there is a "perfect" timeline or some such nosense.

Obviously the rift which was in both universes partially opened her mind to the events of an alternate reality.

We also have the fact that the produces decide to jump from timelin to timeline for no apparent reason.

Meh, that's what they do. Never said it was a good idea.

The incident on DS9 when O'Brien was time jumping was he always coming back to another reality since he institutes changes there?

He was forming new realities as he progressed, what he did in the future would not form a timeline backwards though.

At the end of the day we have a theory on how it would work in our world, they have done it and found out otherwise, htey know more than we do so Im going with them on this one.

Only from their point of view, but the existance of many people who shouldn't exist and the existance of these parallel realities in Trek tells us otherwise.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 08:52pm

It did not come from an alternate reality, that was it's reality until Odo changed it.

No the Defiant that landed on colony 200 years back had to come from another relaity under your theory since time travel in your own time stream is impossible according to you.

Therefore even if our Defiant didnt create the colony the one from the other reality did therefore that colony should still exist in our time stream yet it doesnt.

The alternate realities tell us nothing at all because they conform to another staple of Scifi unrealted to time travel as has already been stated 3 times now? no 4 including this one.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 08:59pm

TheDarkling wrote:
It did not come from an alternate reality, that was it's reality until Odo changed it.
No the Defiant that landed on colony 200 years back had to come from another relaity under your theory since time travel in your own time stream is impossible according to you.

Therefore even if our Defiant didnt create the colony the one from the other reality did therefore that colony should still exist in our time stream yet it doesnt.

The Defiant was "on course" to create the colony, that is why the colony existed, as long as it was on course it remained in the same universe.
When Odo butted in, he created a new universe where the Defiant didn't crash which is when our Defiant was seperated from the old universe.

Otherwise we have an inexplicable grandfather paradox.

The alternate realities tell us nothing at all because they conform to another staple of Scifi unrealted to time travel as has already been stated 3 times now? no 4 including this one.

But the evidence TOGETHER makes it clear that many of the alternate realities are due to time travel.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 09:06pm

No the evidence does not make that clear your ignoring of canon characters opinion on time travel and what we see, combined with the grandfather paradox create this opinion however im afraid that when forced to choose between current science and trek science we have to obey theirs.

Yes but you see the Defiant stays in our universe, why create another timeline? our defiant not going back in time shouldnt affect our history since it was another defiant that crashed back there according to you.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 09:13pm

TheDarkling wrote:No the evidence does not make that clear your ignoring of canon characters opinion on time travel and what we see, combined with the grandfather paradox create this opinion however im afraid that when forced to choose between current science and trek science we have to obey theirs.

The canon characters opinion means precisley nothing as they are clearly incompitent, what we see is more important.

Yes but you see the Defiant stays in our universe, why create another timeline? our defiant not going back in time shouldnt affect our history since it was another defiant that crashed back there according to you.

Because it was going to crash until Odo changed it.
Odo's action tossed the Defiant into a parallel reality the moment it couldn't crash.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-21 09:17pm

Why? The defiant not going to the past (of a different reality) changed its reality why? it should have only affected the timline it would have ended up in however since we dont see this timeline we get no sucess.

The episode also features the crew trying to make a time double (for want of better terms) which would go into the past - again why since the colony is in no danger since the defiant that founded their colony wasnt the one they were working with.

We will have to agree to disagree Im afraid I believe that people who use time travel every day have a better understanding of it that us and you believe that you know better.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-21 09:21pm

Are you guys saying that the Federation would rather lose a war to a totalitarian state, suffering massive casualties to the civilian population on the way, then send a ship back in time to protect the timeline? Seriously, ethics cannot be a reason for the Federation's non-use of time travel in the Dominion War. Also, they won the frickin' war, anyway. Why can't they send ships back in time to prevent some of the disasters that resulted in unnecessary loss of life (ie. Chintoka, Sisko's foolish attack on Dominion lines when they were trying to retake DS9, etc.) If they were really not going back in time for moral reasons, they should have gone back in time after the war to help avoid such pointless loss of life on the part of both sides.
And let's say the federation does go back in time and manages to save some ships. Of course one of the ships harbors a founder who manages to worm their way up into the command staff and instead of losing lots of ships (but still winning the battle) the feddies lose the war. Unless you are at a point where you don't think you can screw up worse ... I'd avoid time travel like the plague. Time travel is going to be excessively hard to predict. Or you save a rank moronic captain from dying so his brilliant underling never gets the command where he leads the federation forces to an astoudning victory.

Or suppose the feddies start winning before the founders start dying and the founders decide to use biological warfare against major federation worlds to blackmail them into a ceasefire? Suddenly that million odd men in the death tolls looks damn appealing.

In star trek there appears to be 3 major reasons for time travel:
1. Accidental (i.e. the whole Edith Keeler debacle)
2. Preventing something truly horrific (i.e. saving earth in ST:IV).
3. Somebody else is dicking with time (i.e. when the 29th century guys recruit 7 of 9).

We have NO FRIKKING CLUE how time travel works in ST. The characters think changing the past does not spawn a new universe. We do see parrallel universe, however we have no clue why they exist. It might just be classic Many Worlds (which does not rely on time travel at all) or it might be time travellers coming back. We have never seen time travel spawn a new universe, that might be the case but we have NO PROOF of it.

On the other hand there are several examples that don't make sense in the time-travel-spawns-new-universes theory. For instance in "Children of Time" the subjective present changes whilst the Defiant does *nothing*. They fly away from the technobabble and do not interact. Yet the descendants cease to exist.

Another fun one is "Time's Orphan" you have Molly Obrien thrown into the past and retreived after 10 years. At the end of the episode the 18 year old Molly is sent back, but the timing is off. She meets here 8 year old self ... whom she sends back to the future. The 18 year old Molly then dissappears (if I recall the show right ... its been a long while). The fun thing in this one is the "present" is changed ... but we are *NOT* following a specific subjective point of view. If we suspend disbeleif we are seeing the planet with no one on it and 18 year old Molly disappearing for the hell of it.

Or of course we can talk about "Cause and Effect" how in hell do you burn 17 days worth of time (starfleet standard subjective) by spinning off new universes?

We see plently of strange things that don't fit with the new universes explanation. My best rationalization is that time travel is damn risky and people only do it the most extroidinaire of circumstances.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-21 09:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:Why? The defiant not going to the past (of a different reality) changed its reality why? it should have only affected the timline it would have ended up in however since we dont see this timeline we get no sucess.

Because that WAS it's reality, a universe where the Defiant didn't crash didn't exist until Odo made it so.

The episode also features the crew trying to make a time double (for want of better terms) which would go into the past - again why since the colony is in no danger since the defiant that founded their colony wasnt the one they were working with.

They didn't know any better.

We will have to agree to disagree Im afraid I believe that people who use time travel every day have a better understanding of it that us and you believe that you know better.

They work with warp cores every day too but don't know how to stop one from going up like a roman candle if you so much as sneeze on it.
I'm merely extrapolating that if they don't know jack about anything else, we can't really trust that their knowledge of time travel is accurate, especially since that from the point of view of the traveller, everything really does change.