Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[The Yosemite Bear]

Just incase you can't do basic math

Lord Wong, slow down, and pay attention to the context of this part of the thread.

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges. now, it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

Wow! a 1 second delay!

Your beloved Mecha have a sensor suite that only reaches out to 3.2 km, while
the T-90 can effectively enage targets 2m high at these ranges:

Effective range
direct fire vs. 2m high target
HEAT 1010 m
1km
APFSDS 2120 m
2km
with FCS
HEAT/APFSDS 4000 m
4km
HEF 5000 m
5km
HEF indirect 10000 m
10km
Wow, and that's for a 2m tall tank, not a 17.5m tall mecha

[MKSheppard]

Considering we're comparing sabot rounds to area-effect missiles, yes, it's fair. If you like, you can take out the lucky hit. It's doesn't affect the point any, and was essentially fluff text.

Except area effect missiles do JACK SHIT to tanks, while sabot rounds
can penetrate half a metre of rolled homogeneous armor plate....

Why do you think I put the number in quoteation marks?

You never put them in quotation marks, asstard. Quit lying and trying
to distort the debate shithead.

A Scattering Beam Gun is not just a bright flash of light. It's a low level, wide-angle particle-beam blast that temporarily messes with all optics. It lasts only about a second, but that's long enough for a Dom to move to another position, jump, or attack.

Even Infrared Optics? Shit, these tanks were designed to fight on
a fucking NUCLEAR battlefield, and a shiny flash of light isn't gonna
stop them.

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits

The only fucking handicap asstard is the WEATHER! You fucking
fucknut, you cannot comprehend how weather has negatively
affected military operations in the past, so shut the fuck up you
fecal pile of shit!

Considering that the entire scenario has been tailor made to give the Mobile Suits just about every disadvantage possible, I think I'm entitled to take the one loophole I found and run with it.

What disadvantages? You're crying and trying to twist this debate
in ways because your beloved mobile suits have reactor outputs of
1,500 HP, and would bog down in the mud, and their sensors only
have a range of 3.2 km

Again, shut the fuck up fucknut!

[Dendrobius]

I'm new here, and I have watched almost every single Gundam series in existance, so I just want to put in my two cent's worth.

OK, given the way these things usually go, primary evidence (canon) is what we see happen in the anime (Gundam), and secondary would be the information and stats off model kits, etc, right?

I'll address several topics. Armour Strength, Weaponery, The nature of Minovsky Jamming, Defence, and Mobility. Oh, please don't flame me too bad, I am arguing for the Zakus being far more effective than what people are giving it credit for.

Armour Strength:
From the OVA 08th MS Team, Ep9, we saw a Gundam take a shot to the chest from a Midea Tank at point blank range. It had no effect whatsoever on the Gundam in question (RX-79G). No recoil from the hit, no system damage, nothing.

Now, a Zaku is definitely not as strong as a Gundam in terms of armour, but it ain't using 6000 or 7000 series Aluminum either! Secondary evidence says that it uses 'super tensile steel'. Now, if this is steel that has no microflaws or interstices or microcracks in it, for the same weight it would be THOUSANDS of time stronger than RHA. (Any Material Science Engineer should be able to tell you this)

So this suggests that the main cannon of a T90 may not even scratch the armour of the Zaku, let alone destroy it. That is if it's firing sabot. If it fired HEAT rounds, that would be an entirely different issue, but tell me this. With the introduction of ERA, do tanks still carry HEAT rounds?

Weapon Strength:
We know that the Zaku's 120mm cannon can destroy Gundams, as seen in Ep2 of that OVA, when an entire MS Team equipped with Gundams went down for the count against Zaku opposition. Drawing from the above incident as well, the raw power of the 120mm cannon should be more than that of a MBT's cannon, as the 120mm can destroy a Gundam whereas the MBT's cannot.

In other words, firing the 120mm cannon at the T90 would kill it. What's more, since the Zaku is SO MUCH HIGHER than the T90, as MKSheppard keeps reiterating, the 120mm would be firing at the top armour plates of the tank which are thinner and have no ERA.

Accuracy wise, we don't know exactly how good it is, but of what has been demonstrated, we have seen the RX-79G use a bazooka to take out an attack helicopter that was strafing it, so that must call for some degree of accuracy in 'hand held' weaponery. The cannon is equipped with a scope...now I don't think that's there for style marks, is it?

Minovsky Jamming:
Minovsky particles in the all the Universal Century series has basically been described as interfering with every EM wave except for visible light. As in IR and radar are both out.

It works like a smokescreen...you can't target the Mobile Suit that's emitting it because it would be like trying to shoot a smoke grenade in the middle of it's screen...you can't see it, and you can't see where it's emitting from, but sure as hell you can't see past or into it!

Defence:
In Ep8 of 08th MS Team, we saw Zakus dodging almost point blank RPG fire. Whether this was automatic or pilot triggered, we don't know, but we do know that it has the capability of doing so, and also dodging more than one at a time.

The target acquisition systems of a Zaku is far superior to a tank's. A tank, when buttoned up, has a very restrictive view of the outside world. The Zaku has a 180 degree panoramic screen which is computer enhanced. Furthermore this system was designed specifically to work in Minovsky jamming situations, whereas tanks which use thermal imaging may be hampered by the Minovsky particle's IR jamming effect.

Mobility:

In Ep3 of 08th MST, we saw a Zaku literally leap into a river, engage in underwater combat, and come back out, all without any prior preparation whatsoever. So we can assume that it's waterproof and to an extent, mudproof as we saw it on the riverbed as well.

With the issue of mud...if there is enough mud to stop a Zaku, don't you think the T90s will be stopped too? No matter how much you prate on about surface pressure area, the T90 does not float! Say if we give the Zaku equivalent strength to a human of that size. You would need mud up to what, well above your knees before you're stopped cold? Above knee height is 4+ metres of mud. You're telling me Russia has 4+ metres in DEPTH of mud!? That's almost a two storey building's height worth of mud!

Conclusion:
If it is battle on the open plains, I believe that the T90s would get the first shot in, however if they are only equipped with sabot rounds they will not do significant damage before the Zakus can close in and take them out with the 120mm cannons.

If it is urban combat, the tanks will have no chance due to the superior mobility (ability to jet jump) and superior visibility (180 panoramic screen vs periscopes) and superior target acquisition (computer aided vs gunner/commander eyeballs Mk1) of the Zaku II

Of course, this is only the T90 vs the Zaku II. If you start including in other forces like infantry and air support for both sides, then it would be different.

[Vympel]

Russian SEAD was less flexible then its Western counterpart. Their ARM's have to be preset to hit a specific type of emission. However with only one target offering its self that’s not going to be a problem

Hey Skimmer you'll find a really interesting article on JED Online (www.jedonline.com) called 'Crimson SEAD' if you haven't already read it; it's fascinating stuff! You have to register, but it's FREE, so no skin off your nose. Assuming that you're not already registered, of course

[The Yosemite Bear]

I'm new here, and I have watched almost every single Gundam series in existance, so I just want to put in my two cent's worth.

OK, given the way these things usually go, primary evidence (canon) is what we see happen in the anime (Gundam), and secondary would be the information and stats off model kits, etc, right?

I'll address several topics. Armour Strength, Weaponery, The nature of Minovsky Jamming, Defence, and Mobility. Oh, please don't flame me too bad, I am arguing for the Zakus being far more effective than what people are giving it credit for.

Armour Strength:
From the OVA 08th MS Team, Ep9, we saw a Gundam take a shot to the chest from a Midea Tank at point blank range. It had no effect whatsoever on the Gundam in question (RX-79G). No recoil from the hit, no system damage, nothing.

Now, a Zaku is definitely not as strong as a Gundam in terms of armour, but it ain't using 6000 or 7000 series Aluminum either! Secondary evidence says that it uses 'super tensile steel'. Now, if this is steel that has no microflaws or interstices or microcracks in it, for the same weight it would be THOUSANDS of time stronger than RHA. (Any Material Science Engineer should be able to tell you this)

So this suggests that the main cannon of a T90 may not even scratch the armour of the Zaku, let alone destroy it. That is if it's firing sabot. If it fired HEAT rounds, that would be an entirely different issue, but tell me this. With the introduction of ERA, do tanks still carry HEAT rounds?

Weapon Strength:
We know that the Zaku's 120mm cannon can destroy Gundams, as seen in Ep2 of that OVA, when an entire MS Team equipped with Gundams went down for the count against Zaku opposition. Drawing from the above incident as well, the raw power of the 120mm cannon should be more than that of a MBT's cannon, as the 120mm can destroy a Gundam whereas the MBT's cannot.

In other words, firing the 120mm cannon at the T90 would kill it. What's more, since the Zaku is SO MUCH HIGHER than the T90, as MKSheppard keeps reiterating, the 120mm would be firing at the top armour plates of the tank which are thinner and have no ERA.

Accuracy wise, we don't know exactly how good it is, but of what has been demonstrated, we have seen the RX-79G use a bazooka to take out an attack helicopter that was strafing it, so that must call for some degree of accuracy in 'hand held' weaponery. The cannon is equipped with a scope...now I don't think that's there for style marks, is it?

Minovsky Jamming:
Minovsky particles in the all the Universal Century series has basically been described as interfering with every EM wave except for visible light. As in IR and radar are both out.

It works like a smokescreen...you can't target the Mobile Suit that's emitting it because it would be like trying to shoot a smoke grenade in the middle of it's screen...you can't see it, and you can't see where it's emitting from, but sure as hell you can't see past or into it!

Defence:
In Ep8 of 08th MS Team, we saw Zakus dodging almost point blank RPG fire. Whether this was automatic or pilot triggered, we don't know, but we do know that it has the capability of doing so, and also dodging more than one at a time.

The target acquisition systems of a Zaku is far superior to a tank's. A tank, when buttoned up, has a very restrictive view of the outside world. The Zaku has a 180 degree panoramic screen which is computer enhanced. Furthermore this system was designed specifically to work in Minovsky jamming situations, whereas tanks which use thermal imaging may be hampered by the Minovsky particle's IR jamming effect.

Mobility:

In Ep3 of 08th MST, we saw a Zaku literally leap into a river, engage in underwater combat, and come back out, all without any prior preparation whatsoever. So we can assume that it's waterproof and to an extent, mudproof as we saw it on the riverbed as well.

With the issue of mud...if there is enough mud to stop a Zaku, don't you think the T90s will be stopped too? No matter how much you prate on about surface pressure area, the T90 does not float! Say if we give the Zaku equivalent strength to a human of that size. You would need mud up to what, well above your knees before you're stopped cold? Above knee height is 4+ metres of mud. You're telling me Russia has 4+ metres in DEPTH of mud!? That's almost a two storey building's height worth of mud!

Conclusion:
If it is battle on the open plains, I believe that the T90s would get the first shot in, however if they are only equipped with sabot rounds they will not do significant damage before the Zakus can close in and take them out with the 120mm cannons.

If it is urban combat, the tanks will have no chance due to the superior mobility (ability to jet jump) and superior visibility (180 panoramic screen vs periscopes) and superior target acquisition (computer aided vs gunner/commander eyeballs Mk1) of the Zaku II

Of course, this is only the T90 vs the Zaku II. If you start including in other forces like infantry and air support for both sides, then it would be different.

Ok, given wieght: It's armour would have to be composite (The fact that whole chuncks often break away when it's force ins exceeded tends to support this)

Power: It's stated power is too low to move an object of it's size, at human walking speeds.

Umm: IR & UV are actually wavelengths of light, since we don't see the dogs and cats going apeshit while Miosicky particles are being broadcast, it can't work that way.

Yeah, the writers screwed up Bigtime in creating the science of the sereis, not as bad as say Startrek, but very bad.

Note, the low amount of damage done to civilian structures, rock formations, etc. Would tend to show most everything in MSG uses lighter materials then are used in present day technologies.

[Darth Wong]

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges.

You mean the statement in which the tanks will begin to engage the mobile suits at their superior range. It doesn't mean they will fire one shot at maximum range and then sit there like idiots, the way you seem to think.

5 seconds is more than enough time for a Dom pilot, even not seeing the shot coming, to change his course on a normal zig-zag or move to cover. Yes, you have a bigger target, which reduces your margin of error, But at the same time, your target is also much faster and maneverable (no, not because it's a mecha, but because it's got a set of jet engines in it's legs and skirt armor, and is essentially a giant man-shaped GEV), which jacks up you margin of error again. It does not matter that your target is bigger if it's fast and maneuverable enough to not be where you put your shot by the time it's supposed to reach the target.

You're still missing the point. The mech is easier to hit at that range than a tank, and while a hit is obviously not guaranteed, the point is that the tanks can begin engaging before the mechs can. Even if they only score a few kills at that range, it is still an advantage. By the time the mechs are within their own sensor range, the tanks have already taken many shots, and probably scored a few hits; you can't count on the pilots to dodge every shot that's coming from every enemy tank (unless, as you seem to be doing, you assume that the entire engagement is a one-on-one matchup, without the confusion of war, multiple targets and incoming attack vectors, etc).

Considering we're comparing sabot rounds to area-effect missiles, yes, it's fair. If you like, you can take out the lucky hit. It's doesn't affect the point any, and was essentially fluff text.

It was worse than fluff. You're not going to damage a tank with area-effect explosives.

And I really don't know why you're complaining about fair in this thread...

Quit whining. How is it unfair to place both combatants in the same theatre of war and give, by cost of hardware, an enormous advantage to the mechs? If we made this X dollars worth of tanks vs X dollars worth of mechs (ie- a fair contest), the tanks' numerical advantage would be 20 to 1 easily.

The official numbers given in publications are lower than thier performance in the anime themselves. Best example is the performace of Norris Packard and his MS-07B-3 Gouf Custom in 08thMST episode 10. I might be wrong, so I'm really asking you: Do you think it could've shoved over a section of highway at least twice as long as it's height, and about 20 feet thick, one handed, with a reactor out put of 1034 kW?

Yes, although I'm counting entirely on your description, not having seen the episode in question. Hydraulic accumulators and a poorly attached highway (implicit in the face that it can be shoved over from a single contact point rather than disintegrating around his hand) will solve that problem. Converting low constant power output into high transient work is one of the oldest engineering problems; don't make me laugh with your ridiculous assumption that it can't be done.

Or why when one of the abovementioned GMs, with the reactor output mentioned above, was in danger of melting down, the entire command center, despite being several miles from the mountain in question, were bracing themselves for a shockwave?

Maybe it was carrying a nuclear weapon and they were worried it would cook off, which would imply that it was so badly designed that it woud arm and trigger itself from heat buildup. That's the only reason to be worried about a reactor meltdown from that distance.

Or how two shots from the Apsalus III. whose combined reactors only come up to 3660 kW, blows through a mountain in one shot(the diameter of the hole, BTW, is about half the height of the mountain itself)? You said it yourself, that kind of firepower shouldn't do jack shit to a mountain, yet it blew through mountains on two seperate occasions on episode 11.

Since I doubt there was the requisite nuclear fireball which was more intense than the surface of the Sun for several minutes, causing ground-quakes and an EMP to the horizon, this incident must have been deceptive. There is no way to blow away half a mountain without those kinds of side-effects because of the sheer energy required.

So what's up with that? I'll leave the conclusions to you, as they'll probably be better than mine.

Apart from proving that the show is REALLY badly written, your examples only show that certain scenes are obviously deceptive, since they imply energies whose side-effects would be blatantly obvious yet are not present.

A Scattering Beam Gun is not just a bright flash of light. It's a low level, wide-angle particle-beam blast that temporarily messes with all optics. It lasts only about a second, but that's long enough for a Dom to move to another position, jump, or attack.

Since when can a Dom cover several km/s? And since when is there some magical mechanism through which "all optics" regardless of design are affected by the same phenomenon, despite no physical damage?

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits, except one:

Bullshit. Since when is it a handicap to NOT grant naval support to one side?

But if you want to press the issue, we can take out the Zanzibar, as it's not a dedicated atmospheric craft. That still leaves the Zeon/Germans with the Dopp fighter, Dodai YS and Dodai II bombers, Gunship Heli gunships, Luggun recon planes, and of course, the Gau carrier/bomber.

Now you're just bullshitting. By manpower, size, and cost, you are trying to generate excuses to have a VASTLY larger force on your side, and you actually have the audacity to call this an attempt to make the scenario "fair".

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Wong:

About Apsalus: There WAS a nuclear fireball, and it melted armor several km away. It is specifically stated that the hull of a hover transport was liquefied even though it was physically shielded by two Gundams. No conclusion can be made about EM effects, though it could be assumed that if there were any, the MSes would be shielded against it.

And the Gouf Custom suit DID shove over the highway section. Notice that certain highways are built with gaps to allow for thermal expansion, that's prolly what happened, a section of non-continuous highway was lifted up (its pretty obvious the edges are metal because it looks different from the asphalt (?) of the rest of the highway.

All mobile suits use some sort of fusion reactor, sufficiently powerful to blast a hole in a 200km long colony sufficient to warrant evacuation. And I agree that it is bad engine design, although it allows for a nifty way to sidestep the treaty signed in the first month of the One-Year War forbidding the use of nukes and chemical/biological weapons.

Just wanted to clear it up.

[SAMAS]

You say that like it makes a difference.

You have no idea of real combat do you? Your mech
will be empty of ammunition after 4 minutes of combat,
while the tank will fight on for 30 minutes before it has
to go back to reload.

That's not a problem, as Mobile Suits aready carry their reloads with them, and in a Dom's case, can quickly withdraw back to base for more. Tanks carry so much ammo because more ofen than not, they have to.

This is the critical difference between Mechs(particularly in this case Mobile Suits) and Tanks in combat. Mobile Suits are made more for sorties against the enemy. Get in, kill the target, get out.

This is actually emphasized in Mobile Suit Gundam, particularly Operation Odessa, where the Federatiion, which was still using mostly Tanks, drove back the Zeon Forces, as their Mobile Suits were forced into extended engagements trying to protect their HLVs and Zanzibars launching into space.

[pointless mecha wankfest crap snipped, forgetting that
in WW2, tanks were capable of scoring kills on moving
tanks at ranges in excess of 2 km]

I say again: Moving at what rate? 2km/h(for example) is considered a moving vehicle, you know. Size or not, there is a big difference between say, 75km/h and 240km/h.

That's the cool thing about Minovsky Particles. When scattered, they block out pretty much everything but light and heat.

You STUPID FUCK! IR is INFRA-RED radiation....AKA FUCKING HEAT!

You have just shown yourself to be so fucking stupid I wonder how
you can possibly fucking BREATHE!

Then why'd you bring it up, dumbass? That's no advantage.

And you can go ahead and fire SAMs, Sidewinders, or whatever at it. Just make sure that you have plenty of them. The Zanzibar and the Gau are warships. They're built to take several hits from missiles, guns, and even lighter beam weapons.

Wow, a total armament consisting of:

2-barrel main gun x 1
mega particle gun x 4
2-barrel machinegun x 5

Jesus, the SA-12 could smoke it from 6 to 75 km away from you
at speeds of up to 1.7 km./sec, which you cant even intercept.

[/quote]

And if it's 6/75 km away, it's already being shot at by the abovementioned guns.

And it'd run out of missiles before doing any real damage. This is the part you are not getting. Go ahead and fire your missiles. Congratulations, you've inflicted moderate hull damage. Now have some Mega Particles for dessert.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Niitpick: MSG Island Three colony dimensions are only 30 km long x 6.4 km wide.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Niitpick: MSG Island Three colony dimensions are only 30 km long x 6.4 km wide.

I writhe corrected. My 200km assumption was incorrect.

[MKSheppard]

That's not a problem, as Mobile Suits aready carry their reloads with them, and in a Dom's case, can quickly withdraw back to base for more. Tanks carry so much ammo because more ofen than not, they have to

How do they reload after their ammo is gone? Do they stop in
the middle of the battlefield and take the ammo packs off their backs?

This is the critical difference between Mechs(particularly in this case Mobile Suits) and Tanks in combat. Mobile Suits are made more for sorties against the enemy. Get in, kill the target, get out.

A tank is designed for SUSTAINED combat at realistic rates. Your mobile
suits will be killed as they retreat to get more ammo.

This is actually emphasized in Mobile Suit Gundam, particularly Operation Odessa, where the Federatiion, which was still using mostly Tanks, drove back the Zeon Forces, as their Mobile Suits were forced into extended engagements trying to protect their HLVs and Zanzibars launching into space.

Hah. Mobile Suits are fucking worthless than. They would never stand
up to realistic combat in the real world.

I say again: Moving at what rate? 2km/h(for example) is considered a moving vehicle, you know. Size or not, there is a big difference between say, 75km/h and 240km/h.

Except when your fucking mecha is the fucking size of a house, the speed
difference becomes negligible. And I'll say it again....AT-11 Sniper ATGM...
can shoot down small fast manuverable helos, and is Laser guided....and
Minkovisky Particles won't block LASERS, since lasers are just really
LIGHT.

Then why'd you bring it up, dumbass? That's no advantage.

You keep thinking that Radar is used for everything in the real
world. Only things in land combat that use radar are the AH-64D's
radar guided hellfires, and of course, the radar-directed Contakt
ERA on russian MBTs that can stop incoming sabot rounds.

And it'd run out of missiles before doing any real damage. This is the part you are not getting. Go ahead and fire your missiles. Congratulations, you've inflicted moderate hull damage. Now have some Mega Particles for dessert.

You don't get it do you? Let me show you what happens when something
slams into something at 1.7 km a second, much less a several HUNDRED
pound missile:

[SAMAS]

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges.

You mean the statement in which the tanks will begin to engage the mobile suits at their superior range. It doesn't mean they will fire one shot at maximum range and then sit there like idiots, the way you seem to think.

Not at all. That is just a singlular example, like the one that's beeen going around on the Tanker's side of tanks long-range sniping at Mobile Suits stuck up to their waists in mud.

5 seconds is more than enough time for a Dom pilot, even not seeing the shot coming, to change his course on a normal zig-zag or move to cover. Yes, you have a bigger target, which reduces your margin of error, But at the same time, your target is also much faster and maneverable (no, not because it's a mecha, but because it's got a set of jet engines in it's legs and skirt armor, and is essentially a giant man-shaped GEV), which jacks up you margin of error again. It does not matter that your target is bigger if it's fast and maneuverable enough to not be where you put your shot by the time it's supposed to reach the target.

You're still missing the point. The mech is easier to hit at that range than a tank, and while a hit is obviously not guaranteed, the point is that the tanks can begin engaging before the mechs can. Even if they only score a few kills at that range, it is still an advantage.

No, the point is that it is not easier to hit, simply on the fact that it's bigger. Movement and maneuverability(and distance and speed of your weapon) are also factors in hitting something.

Since I apparenty used a bad example, let me just state it.

At long range, a Dom is going to be harder to hit than a modern tank, because it's speed and maneuverability offset it's size.

By the time the mechs are within their own sensor range, the tanks have already taken many shots, and probably scored a few hits; you can't count on the pilots to dodge every shot that's coming from every enemy tank (unless, as you seem to be doing, you assume that the entire engagement is a one-on-one matchup, without the confusion of war, multiple targets and incoming attack vectors, etc).

True, that all fails to take into account things like air suppourt, at the very least.

Considering we're comparing sabot rounds to area-effect missiles, yes, it's fair. If you like, you can take out the lucky hit. It's doesn't affect the point any, and was essentially fluff text.

It was worse than fluff. You're not going to damage a tank with area-effect explosives.

And I really don't know why you're complaining about fair in this thread...

Quit whining. How is it unfair to place both combatants in the same theatre of war and give, by cost of hardware, an enormous advantage to the mechs? If we made this X dollars worth of tanks vs X dollars worth of mechs (ie- a fair contest), the tanks' numerical advantage would be 20 to 1 easily.

The official numbers given in publications are lower than thier performance in the anime themselves. Best example is the performace of Norris Packard and his MS-07B-3 Gouf Custom in 08thMST episode 10. I might be wrong, so I'm really asking you: Do you think it could've shoved over a section of highway at least twice as long as it's height, and about 20 feet thick, one handed, with a reactor out put of 1034 kW?

Yes, although I'm counting entirely on your description, not having seen the episode in question. Hydraulic accumulators and a poorly attached highway (implicit in the face that it can be shoved over from a single contact point rather than disintegrating around his hand) will solve that problem. Converting low constant power output into high transient work is one of the oldest engineering problems; don't make me laugh with your ridiculous assumption that it can't be done.[/quote]

I didn't assume. Look above.

I might be wrong, so I'm really asking you: Do you think it could've shoved over a section of highway at least twice as long as it's height, and about 20 feet thick, one handed, with a reactor out put of 1034 kW?

I didn't think so, but I knew that it was entirely possible that I was wrong. So I took the care to ask rather than assume.

Or why when one of the abovementioned GMs, with the reactor output mentioned above, was in danger of melting down, the entire command center, despite being several miles from the mountain in question, were bracing themselves for a shockwave?

Maybe it was carrying a nuclear weapon and they were worried it would cook off, which would imply that it was so badly designed that it woud arm and trigger itself from heat buildup. That's the only reason to be worried about a reactor meltdown from that distance.

(The Federation is attacking the mountain base where the Apsalus is being completed. After extendec bombing, They find the entrance, and start sending in Mobile Suit Teams)

(dalogue taken from english subtitles of the DVD)
Captain Ryer: If we can't get in, what would you say to our making the mountain disappear?

Commander Kojima: But, without using nuclear weapons, that won't be a simple task.

(Onscreen, a trap in the tunnel entrace goes off, signalling the death of the GM team sent in as an explosion erupts from the tunnel)

Technician: We've got a high probablility of a Mobile Suit reactor explosion! Lock filters onto all optical sensors, or you'll burn them out! All units, brace for shockwave! (smoke billows from the tunnel, but nothing happens) ...Secure from alert. Looks like nothing's going to blow.

Ryer: as long as mobile suits are powered by nuclear reactors, there's no way to completely avoid battlefield accidents, correct?

Kojima: Are you suggesting we intentionally blow up one of our...?!

Ryer: Operation Star One is near. At all costs, I want to avoid Admial Revil laughing at me for allowing that thing to get up into space. Understand?

Nuclear weapons were specitically banned by the Antactic treaty, after the first week of the war wiped out half the population of the Earth Sphere. Entire Sides(clusters of Space Colonies stationed at the LaGrange points in orbit) were reduced to floating masses of debris by nuclear exchanges, and whole colonies were depopulated by gas attacks.

Or how two shots from the Apsalus III. whose combined reactors only come up to 3660 kW, blows through a mountain in one shot(the diameter of the hole, BTW, is about half the height of the mountain itself)? You said it yourself, that kind of firepower shouldn't do jack shit to a mountain, yet it blew through mountains on two seperate occasions on episode 11.

Since I doubt there was the requisite nuclear fireball which was more intense than the surface of the Sun for several minutes, causing ground-quakes and an EMP to the horizon, this incident must have been deceptive. There is no way to blow away half a mountain without those kinds of side-effects because of the sheer energy required.[/quote]

As stated, there was the prerequisite fireball. EMP wasn't mentioned, as the 08th Team was more concerned with protecting themselves and the Hover Truck from the shockwave of the blast, which hurled boulders half the size of their gundams past them. After the smoke cleared, you could see clear through the mountain to the other side, and the sides of the hole were still glowing from the heat.

The second time, the shot was interrupted by the Gundam EZ-8 introducing the cockpit to it's fist. A short burst still vaporized a good 60% of the Gundam, melted through the mountainside the Kojima Battalion's Big Tray(Think a hovertank the size of an Iowa) was behind, and vaporized the bridge, and a good two more decks on the land battleship.

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits, except one:

Bullshit. Since when is it a handicap to NOT grant naval support to one side?

Niether side has naval power in this case.

But if you want to press the issue, we can take out the Zanzibar, as it's not a dedicated atmospheric craft. That still leaves the Zeon/Germans with the Dopp fighter, Dodai YS and Dodai II bombers, Gunship Heli gunships, Luggun recon planes, and of course, the Gau carrier/bomber.

Now you're just bullshitting. By manpower, size, and cost, you are trying to generate excuses to have a VASTLY larger force on your side, and you actually have the audacity to call this an attempt to make the scenario "fair".

That's Zeon Air Power. Most of their dedicated aircraft the Zeon used in the One Year War, with the exception of the Fat Uncle transport plane.

I didn't say how many there would be, except that they would be replacing the Stukas, as Yosmite said. Meanwhile, the Russians get modern MiGs and Hind gunships. Yosmite allowed the use of Zeon aircfaft, and that's what it entails. True, that's not what he had in mind, but that's the consequence, and I even admitted to running with it.

That's exactly what I would do in that situation. Denied the use of Zeon tanks in muddly weather, I would count heavily on my Air Power to get my Mobile Suits where they needed to be.

[MKSheppard]

Not at all. That is just a singlular example, like the one that's beeen going around on the Tanker's side of tanks long-range sniping at Mobile Suits stuck up to their waists in mud.

War is not fair, fucknut. It's not my fault your mecha have
ground pressures of 90 + PSI while my T-90s have GPs of
only 15.7 PSI...

And long range enagements are the NORM in tank combat now,
so STFU.

No, the point is that it is not easier to hit, simply on the fact that it's bigger. Movement and maneuverability(and distance and speed of your weapon) are also factors in hitting something.

A house, no matter if it's moving at 240 Km or 0 km is still a fucking HOUSE,
you brain-dead retarded moron. And if you try your fancy maneuvers,
your mecha ends up stuck in the mud as it's ground pressure doubles
from 90+ PSI to over 180+ PSI and it goes knee deep in the mud.

True, that all fails to take into account things like air suppourt, at the very least.

Then your air support DIES like flies sprayed with RAID as they are
shot down out of the sky by IR guided AAMs, and then the Hinds and
Mi-28 Havocs rip your mecha into pieces with ATGMs.

And since the official publications give them a reactor rating of 1,500 HP,
we'll just stick with that. Explosive uncontrolled releases of reactor energy
are not the same as CONTROLLED releases of energy, like a fusion reactor
would do.

[Sea Skimmer]

And if it's 6/75 km away, it's already being shot at by the abovementioned guns.

And it'd run out of missiles before doing any real damage. This is the part you are not getting. Go ahead and fire your missiles. Congratulations, you've inflicted moderate hull damage. Now have some Mega Particles for dessert.

Can you even identify the warhead weight a type of an S-300V? Given your utter lack of knowledge about real militaries I find this doubtful. Do you know how many ready missiles a battery has or how fast they can salvo. No? Well then, another load of bull to add to your pile.

[SAMAS]

That's not a problem, as Mobile Suits aready carry their reloads with them, and in a Dom's case, can quickly withdraw back to base for more. Tanks carry so much ammo because more ofen than not, they have to

How do they reload after their ammo is gone? Do they stop in
the middle of the battlefield and take the ammo packs off their backs?

Only stop if possible, dumbass. I already see you thinking they'll be stupid enough to stop in the open in the middle of a firefight. If they can, they'll pull back to cover. Otherwise, they'll just reload on the move.

This is the critical difference between Mechs(particularly in this case Mobile Suits) and Tanks in combat. Mobile Suits are made more for sorties against the enemy. Get in, kill the target, get out.

A tank is designed for SUSTAINED combat at realistic rates. Your mobile
suits will be killed as they retreat to get more ammo.

The tanks will be dead before the Mobile Suits pull out(what do you think the first target is going to be?). Like Wong said, this will not be a one-on-one engagement. That means Dopp strafing from above, Dodai YSs dropping Goufs right in the middle of your position, and a second wave of Doms coming in from the ground.

And wait until we get into the cities...

This is actually emphasized in Mobile Suit Gundam, particularly Operation Odessa, where the Federatiion, which was still using mostly Tanks, drove back the Zeon Forces, as their Mobile Suits were forced into extended engagements trying to protect their HLVs and Zanzibars launching into space.

Hah. Mobile Suits are fucking worthless than. They would never stand
up to realistic combat in the real world.

When one's survivability is based on mobility, and you're stuck in one place, your combat effectiveness goes way down.

The majority of RW combat has been in jungles, mountians, and cities. Areas where your tanks are at a disadvantage, due to the three-dimensional terrain, and abundance of cover.

Except when your fucking mecha is the fucking size of a house, the speed
difference becomes negligible.

No it doesn't, dumbass. If something is fast and maneuverable enough to not be in the area at the same time as the shot, size doesn't mean jack shit, unless the smaller target has the same speed and maneuverability. Think about it for a second.

And I'll say it again....AT-11 Sniper ATGM...
can shoot down small fast manuverable helos, and is Laser guided....and
Minkovisky Particles won't block LASERS, since lasers are just really
LIGHT.

How fast, how maneuverable? And most importantly, how well armored?

You keep thinking that Radar is used for everything in the real
world. Only things in land combat that use radar are the AH-64D's
radar guided hellfires, and of course, the radar-directed Contakt
ERA on russian MBTs that can stop incoming sabot rounds.

Not anymore.

You don't get it do you? Let me show you what happens when something
slams into something at 1.7 km a second, much less a several HUNDRED
pound missile:

[image snipped]

Unless the missile actually strikes the target, as opposed to a proximity detonation(missiles rarely detonate at or after impact), it's speed doesn't figure into it's detonation.

So what kind of warhead are you using?

[SAMAS]

Not at all. That is just a singlular example, like the one that's beeen going around on the Tanker's side of tanks long-range sniping at Mobile Suits stuck up to their waists in mud.

War is not fair, fucknut. It's not my fault your mecha have
ground pressures of 90 + PSI while my T-90s have GPs of
only 15.7 PSI...

This isn't war, numb-nuts! This is a vs Debate set up deliberately by a single person.

If you want to determine this as a war, Russia vs. Zeon, we can do that.

And long range enagements are the NORM in tank combat now,
so STFU.

And close-range engagements are the norm in Zeon combat, so STFU.

And on a more relavent point, it is made that way, despite long-range communications/radar, and ranges, because of their ability to silence long-range indirect commuinications/detections. That's why combat in gundam, ground or space, is limited to line-of-sight, because that's as good as IR and laser dectection can do.

Troops are not going to move by slogging it through the mud, they're going to use transports such as Gau carriers, and Land Battleships. That means your tank's ranges aren't going to do any good, because the Zeon are going to drop their troops right on top of you.

No, the point is that it is not easier to hit, simply on the fact that it's bigger. Movement and maneuverability(and distance and speed of your weapon) are also factors in hitting something.

A house, no matter if it's moving at 240 Km or 0 km is still a fucking HOUSE,
you brain-dead retarded moron. And if you try your fancy maneuvers,
your mecha ends up stuck in the mud as it's ground pressure doubles
from 90+ PSI to over 180+ PSI and it goes knee deep in the mud.

Do I have to draw a diagram here, or are you just acting this dumb to annoy me?

Have you even been paying attention to what I've been using here? A Dom's legs do not touch the ground when it's manevering, so there is no ground pressure.

True, that all fails to take into account things like air suppourt, at the very least.

Then your air support DIES like flies sprayed with RAID as they are
shot down out of the sky by IR guided AAMs, and then the Hinds and
Mi-28 Havocs rip your mecha into pieces with ATGMs.

Your SAM sites are driled by Mega-Particle Guns before they fire more than a single salvo. Not that it matters, as they weren't in the scenario to begin with.

And since the official publications give them a reactor rating of 1,500 HP,
we'll just stick with that. Explosive uncontrolled releases of reactor energy
are not the same as CONTROLLED releases of energy, like a fusion reactor
would do.

You mean in the face of evidence to the contrary?

[HemlockGrey]

This isn't war, numb-nuts! This is a vs Debate set up deliberately by a single person.

If you want to determine this as a war, Russia vs. Zeon, we can do that.

It is a war, dumbass. Zeon mechs invading Russian territory.

And close-range engagements are the norm in Zeon combat, so STFU.

Wow! Tanks engage at really long ranges while Zeon mechs engage at really close ranges! The mechs really have an advantage there!

And on a more relavent point, it is made that way, despite long-range communications/radar, and ranges, because of their ability to silence long-range indirect commuinications/detections. That's why combat in gundam, ground or space, is limited to line-of-sight, because that's as good as IR and laser dectection can do.

So the tanks waste the mechs in line-of-sight long-range engagements. Your point?

Troops are not going to move by slogging it through the mud, they're going to use transports such as Gau carriers, and Land Battleships. That means your tank's ranges aren't going to do any good, because the Zeon are going to drop their troops right on top of you.

Funny how we're comparing mechs to tanks, not troops.

Your SAM sites are driled by Mega-Particle Guns before they fire more than a single salvo. Not that it matters, as they weren't in the scenario to begin with.

Mega-particle guns from what? The mechs that are busy getting wasted by the tanks?

You mean in the face of evidence to the contrary?

Uncontrolled explosion is not the same thing as a controlled release of energy. He already spelld it out for you.

[Dark Hellion]

Samas, there's no point in trying anymore. Shep and the rest is just gonna sit here and go la,la,la ground pressure la,la,la,la mechs suck the whole time. No one intended this to be a debate. It was supposed to be a tanker wankfest. It is kinda sad when grown men need to set up a completely unfair situation just to prove that there beloved tanks are better than mechs.
I am the first to admit mechs don't make any logical combat sense, but when you use that one point to say that mechs that repetedly blow away faster more manueverable and heavier armed tanks than the T-90's are inferior its just stupid.

[[BL]Phalanx]

Hey, instead of arguing subjectively over the maneuverability issue, why not do some math on it to settle it? Take into account the mecha's size and speed, and calculate the error involved, then compare to the tanks'.

After all, speed does matter when dodging. A Culture warship is larger than either the mecha or the tank, but it could dodge their fire all day long.

Figure out the angular size and compare to the angular speeds, and see who's ratio comes out better.

[MKSheppard]

Samas, there's no point in trying anymore. Shep and the rest is just gonna sit here and go la,la,la ground pressure la,la,la,la mechs suck the whole time. No one intended this to be a debate. It was supposed to be a tanker wankfest. It is kinda sad when grown men need to set up a completely unfair situation just to prove that there beloved tanks are better than mechs.

This was no wank fest from the beginning, asshole. The mecha forces like
to claim their shit is better and more mobile, and what better way to prove
that by setting our battle in the Russian Winter?

If I wanted this to be a wankfest, I'd have brought a BOLO to the game...

[Setzer]

All mobile suits use some sort of fusion reactor, sufficiently powerful to blast a hole in a 200km long colony sufficient to warrant evacuation. And I agree that it is bad engine design, although it allows for a nifty way to sidestep the treaty signed in the first month of the One-Year War forbidding the use of nukes and chemical/biological weapons.

Just wanted to clear it up.

I'm pretty sure the show said colonies were only 40km long, 5km wide.
And how will the Dopp fair against SU-27s and Mig-29s? One look at that thing shows that aerodynamics wasn't a high priority when it was being designed.

[Sea Skimmer]

Only stop if possible, dumbass. I already see you thinking they'll be stupid enough to stop in the open in the middle of a firefight. If they can, they'll pull back to cover. Otherwise, they'll just reload on the move.

They fly they die from a hail of SAM and ATGW hits, they land they sink and get killed by a swarm of tank shells and more missiles. Your claims of high mobility are theoretical at best. The mecha are massively underpowered and have massive ground pressure. Flight makes the house-sized targets visible from even further away.

The tanks will be dead before the Mobile Suits pull out(what do you think the first target is going to be?). Like Wong said, this will not be a one-on-one engagement. That means Dopp strafing from above, Dodai YSs dropping Goufs right in the middle of your position, and a second wave of Doms coming in from the ground.

And wait until we get into the cities...

The tanks which have the range, fire control, ammunition, armor and numerical advantage along with missile armed ground and air support? Sure, you can dance right in, wipe them out and then fly away.

When one's survivability is based on mobility, and you're stuck in one place, your combat effectiveness goes way down.

Exactly, which is why the mecha are fucked. They would have far worse mobility then tanks, which rely on their reactive and passive armor for protection. Mobility is merely a boost.

The majority of RW combat has been in jungles, mountians, and cities. Areas where your tanks are at a disadvantage, due to the three-dimensional terrain, and abundance of cover.

Not many jungles or mountains in central Russia, not a whole lot in the way or urban areas either. Just lots of opens plains and gentle rolling hills. Ideal for a side with a range advantage and huge targets to shoot at, IE the Russians

Mecha are at an even worse disadvantage in an urban area. There weak power plant requires that they have very light armor, making hand held rockets fired from upper story windows highly effective. One would not even have the lean out to use one. Infantry would slaughter them, as would artillery and just about everything else.

No it doesn't, dumbass. If something is fast and maneuverable enough to not be in the area at the same time as the shot, size doesn't mean jack shit, unless the smaller target has the same speed and maneuverability. Think about it for a second.

Why don’t you take your own advice you fucking idiot. This statement is so stupid my comments aren’t even needed.

Unless the missile actually strikes the target, as opposed to a proximity detonation(missiles rarely detonate at or after impact), it's speed doesn't figure into it's detonation.

So what kind of warhead are you using?

Perhaps against fighters and fighter bombers proximity detonations are more common, against mecha which would be the main targets it would be impossible to miss, there's no way such slow mecha even if they can fly 240 kph could not be in the no escape zone. BTW, do you fucking know what that is? It is the zone in which it is impossible for the target to escape a DIRECT hit. A S-300V going for Barn flying at the speed of a moderate biplane is going to have a huge no escape zone and will hit. The Crew would have the point the missile away from the target first and then fire for it to have chance. Speed is a major factor in this, the faster a missile lies the more maneuvering energy it has to play with. It also reduces the maneuvering time of the target. Speed increases the chances of a direct hit, in this case to about 99% with the last one percent being duds but still smashing into the mecha and damagin it with the hail of burning solid rocket fuel chunks.

[Howedar]

I'd just like to point something out. Mech supporters claim that their mechs will be firing on the top armor of the T-90s, as the mechs are comically tall.

Lets assume perfect flat level ground, and a range of 500m. Arc tangent of 17.5m divided by 500m gives an angle of a whopping 2 degrees. Tell me Mech supporters, do you think that 2 degrees makes a difference as to whether you're firing on somebody's front armor or their top armor?

Bear in mind that this is at a range of half a kilometer.

[Vympel]

Samas, there's no point in trying anymore. Shep and the rest is just gonna sit here and go la,la,la ground pressure la,la,la,la mechs suck the whole time. No one intended this to be a debate. It was supposed to be a tanker wankfest. It is kinda sad when grown men need to set up a completely unfair situation just to prove that there beloved tanks are better than mechs.
I am the first to admit mechs don't make any logical combat sense, but when you use that one point to say that mechs that repetedly blow away faster more manueverable and heavier armed tanks than the T-90's are inferior its just stupid.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*wipes tears of laughter*

You know someone's lost the debate when they call real-life logical weapons defeating sci-fi flights of fancy a 'wankfest'. It's the very fact that these so-called advanced futuristic mechs are utterly incapable of fighting with tanks on equal terms that makes it all so comical. Tanker wank-fest? Please. You're just in shock that these stupid weapons don't stand a chance.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I'm pretty sure the show said colonies were only 40km long, 5km wide.

32 km long, 6.4 km wide.