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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:But then something like that would only make the change applicable to humans, not all the other species as well, which is the actual case.

I'm just saying that it probably occurred at the very beginning.

The Vulcans were the same as far as I can tell, but I've only seen the opening credits and First Contact scene. *Shrug*

I'm refering to the TOS and DS9 episodes that dealt with the Mirror Universe as well, in addition to this ENT episode.

DS9's alliance didn't seem that unlikely, You think the Cardassians, Klingons and Bajorans wouldn't get nasty together if provided with the opportunity? Though in any such relationship, the Klingons would be dominant as was shown.

Going back to the Vulcans, while they do seem to be coming in peace in the not named show, by the time of the TOS show Spock mentions that his death will be avenged by his operatives, some of whom are Vulcans. This appears to to put the fear of God into people.

I don't think the divergence point was First Contact, more time travel bullshit but if as people are suggesting the Mirror Universe, the events portrayed in this episode is the 'original timeline' and the other 'normal' timeline we know is the result of Picard going back and changing Cochranes mentality somehow, then how would Picard and the Federaion have existed in the first place? (Meh, I'm sure the rebuttal will be 'alternate timeline>alternate timeline>circles>yadda yadda)

In turn, if history was so different before first contact, it is a bit perculiar that the event occured in exactly the same place in exactly the samer manner as in the non-mirror universe, until Cochrane pulled out his gun... but then alot of things in the Mirror Universe are the same even hundreds of years later, a seperate quantum (wo0t) reality should be entirely different in DS9 time yet mirror version of people more or less all exist and were all born at the same time etc... somehow, even though events pass in a totally different way, all of our main characters mirror version still happen to be born and do a similar (albeit usually more violent :p) career in the mirror universe

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Then what kind of diverging point besides one that occurs at the Big Bang turns everyone in that universe "evil?"

That's what I'm actually suggesting: alternate timelines whose diverging points occur so immediately that they're essentially independent from each other.

Where is it written that there has to be ONE point of divergence? There could be several after all.

Off the top of my head it seems the divergance is that to use occultic terminologies. The Left Hand Path became social exceptible vs. the Right Hand.

Will elaborated if people wish.

-Russ

A point of divergence is (in this context) the point where one timeline splits into two distinct timelines.

When comparing two timelines, you can't have multiple points of divergence because after the first divergence point, the two timelines are separate entities.

This episode and next week will be the only two ENT episodes I actually plan to watch ahead of time. Next week, if the previews are anything to go by, we get to see a TOS Connie in full-blown all-out ass-kicking mode. And hopefully, Hoshi in a TOS female officer's uniform.

Just watched the episode. Pretty kickass. Trek the way it was really meant to be.

Jon wrote:Here's the alternate first contact sequence for those who haven't seen it...

Edit: Alternate Mirror for the opening titles...

I couldn't get those to work either. The windows closed themselves on me...

Maybe the divergence occurs when the progenitors seed the galaxy with DNA for humanoid life. Maybe they used a tainted, eeeevil batch.

The Vulcans were not, IMHO, invading. That appears to be Imperial Propaganda, mainly because they greeted Cochrane with the hand and the phrase "Live Long and Prosper", and their ship was taken by primitive backwater survivors of a nuclear war, and then their whole governement was taken. This does not suggest an invasion force.

My theory is that the Mirror-verse is the real universe, with the E-E's meddling causing the Federation. After all, Lily's first action upon seeing Data was to shoot him up...

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:My theory is that the Mirror-verse is the real universe, with the E-E's meddling causing the Federation. After all, Lily's first action upon seeing Data was to shoot him up...

He was breaking into her lab and talking about the warp ship...

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Maybe the divergence occurs when the progenitors seed the galaxy with DNA for humanoid life. Maybe they used a tainted, eeeevil batch.

That could be possible.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:The Vulcans were not, IMHO, invading. That appears to be Imperial Propaganda, mainly because they greeted Cochrane with the hand and the phrase "Live Long and Prosper", and their ship was taken by primitive backwater survivors of a nuclear war, and then their whole governement was taken. This does not suggest an invasion force.

Yes but Archers comment then makes no sense. He is not one to scream Imperial Propaganda for the sake of it and three people with a ship is HARDLY an invasion force. Nor is there exactly much technology to play with in that ship. Frankly I think T'Pul would have rolled her eyes and corrected him saying 'Three Vulcans in an unarmed scout ship isn't much of an invasino force' or something. She had no problems snapping back at him when he called her a slave afterall. And there is no indicator at all that the Vulcans are any kind of subservent race either in this episode or in Mirror Mirror.

Yes but Archers comment then makes no sense. He is not one to scream Imperial Propaganda for the sake of it and three people with a ship is HARDLY an invasion force. Nor is there exactly much technology to play with in that ship.

Not one to scream Imperial propaganda? Even when he's been raised on it and has no standard for comparison? Does he KNOW what exactly occured on First Contact?

Frankly I think T'Pul would have rolled her eyes and corrected him saying 'Three Vulcans in an unarmed scout ship isn't much of an invasino force' or something. She had no problems snapping back at him when he called her a slave afterall. And there is no indicator at all that the Vulcans are any kind of subservent race either in this episode or in Mirror Mirror.

Was T'Pol alive back then? Perhaps she simply has learned to deal with Imperial historical whitewashing.

The Vulcans were not, IMHO, invading. That appears to be Imperial Propaganda, mainly because they greeted Cochrane with the hand and the phrase "Live Long and Prosper", and their ship was taken by primitive backwater survivors of a nuclear war, and then their whole governement was taken. This does not suggest an invasion force.

My theory is that the Mirror-verse is the real universe, with the E-E's meddling causing the Federation. After all, Lily's first action upon seeing Data was to shoot him up...

That makes the most sense to me. All the scenes in the opening credits could very well be nothing but more Imperial retconning.

Hold on, don't go too far out of the diegesis, here...

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Also, I didn't notice any bad acting or cgi at all. *shrugs*

No bad acting? Everybody is constantly going like "I must kill you now, because I'm evil, and hideously torture you, because I'm evil, and your death will be horrible, because I'm evil... did I mention I was evil?" Seriously, most of the acting was genuinely funny.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't know, I was just going with what other people said, in an attempt to dispell the rather rediculous notion that the Mirror Universe had a diverging point from the main timeline.

Why is that ridiculous? How exactly is it so much more plausible that the Mirror Universe somehow has a higher "evil content"? I'm banking on the divergence taking place way back in ancient history.

I'm going with that it occured during the Seeding billions of years ago.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'm going with that it occured during the Seeding billions of years ago.

How would that create the Mirror Universe?

Junghalli wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'm going with that it occured during the Seeding billions of years ago.

How would that create the Mirror Universe?

Maybe they inadvertedly stepped on a butterfly during the process.

Who knows, I was under the impression parallel universe and alternate timeline were two different concepts.

Junghalli wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I'm going with that it occured during the Seeding billions of years ago.

How would that create the Mirror Universe?

It's better than the rest of you yahoos thinking it's something like a change in the outcome of Carthage or the Second World War.

Wait, no, I take it all back. I'm going back to my notion that it's a pre-existing, parellel universe and has nothing to do with a diverging point from another timeline.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Wait, no, I take it all back. I'm going back to my notion that it's a pre-existing, parellel universe and has nothing to do with a diverging point from another timeline.

where mankind is inherently eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.

No, the whole universe is.

It makes more sense since a divergence would have to involve time travel, anyway. Plus it isn't Earth-centric, considering that other species besides Humans are effected.