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Posted: **2002-09-24 12:39am**

What I posted on SB:

Originally posted by sugardaddy

My personal theory is that the Empire controlled the military. However, it subcontracted to entities such as the CSA and Mining Guilds(ref: ESB) to maintain police work.

I believe that Lando and Leia speak of Cloud City being too small for the Empire, or even the Mining Guilds, to care about. That implies some sort of internal control IMO

I researched it, and you seem to be correct. 25,000 is the correct number. I shall partake of my crow pie now...

Posted: **2002-09-24 12:55am**

A couple of trekkies are determined to prove to me that the globes atop the Executor were shield generators. They point to the scene where the dome is destroyed, followed by the pronouncement that the bridge shields are down, followed by the destruction of the bridge by the A-Wing.

Posted: **2002-09-24 12:58am**

Oops, Vert and I are not trekkies.

Posted: **2002-09-24 01:01am**

Isil`Zha wrote:Oops, Vert and I are not trekkies.

If that is indeed the case, then both of you are conducting an excellent imitation of Trekkies. You ignore all evidence which does not support your assertion. I repeatedly demonstrated to you how you did not prove your point that the globes were shield generators (or emmitters). I furthermore laid out the reasons (many times) why I thought the globes were sensor/targeting devices, but BOTH of you ignored that evidence in favor of your own -- truly a rabid Trekkie trait.

Posted: **2002-09-24 01:14am**

jegs2 wrote:
Isil`Zha wrote:Oops, Vert and I are not trekkies.
If that is indeed the case, then both of you are conducting an excellent imitation of Trekkies. You ignore all evidence which does not support your assertion. I repeatedly demonstrated to you how you did not prove your point that the globes were shield generators (or emmitters). .

*snip more flaming*

By what? Your complete lack of evidence that "the gunners were affected"?

And then you turn back to insults again like it will change anything for you.

Posted: **2002-09-24 01:18am**

Isil`Zha wrote:
jegs2 wrote:
Isil`Zha wrote:Oops, Vert and I are not trekkies.
If that is indeed the case, then both of you are conducting an excellent imitation of Trekkies. You ignore all evidence which does not support your assertion. I repeatedly demonstrated to you how you did not prove your point that the globes were shield generators (or emmitters). .

*snip more flaming*
By what? Your complete lack of evidence that "the gunners were affected"?

And then you turn back to insults again like it will change anything for you.

Your evidence is more shaky, and yet you stick to it like glue. I also pointed out that in the same scene, an ISD was in flames and out of control, but both of its domes were intact and undamaged, and yet you ignore that or attach conditions like, "It doesn't have to be damaged for the shields to be damaged." But like I said, you can't have it both ways.

Posted: **2002-09-24 01:58am**

jegs2 wrote:Aaargh, you're sure it's 25,000 only? If that's the case, I'll soon be eating my words on another posting. I was sure there were more....

Yeah, it makes no sense at all, since the Empire consists of millions of worlds. Also, it contradicts the ISB, which states that there are 24 ISDs per sector fleet and that there are thousands of sectors. My rationalization is that there might only be 25k of the Imperial-class, but there are many, many more ISD-sized ships of other classes, as well bigger and smaller ships. This is based on Dark Empire.
Even the most low-end fleet counts, using the ISB number of 2,400 ships per sector fleet, and assuming 1,000 sectors, number over 2.4 million.

Posted: **2002-09-24 03:57am**

There are not only ISD.
There are also VSD, Dreadnoughts, Carracks, Nebulon-B, and all kinds of other smaller and bigger ships.
25000 is already much. Although I wouldn't mind having more....

Posted: **2002-09-24 12:12pm**

Cpt_Frank wrote:There are not only ISD.
There are also VSD, Dreadnoughts, Carracks, Nebulon-B, and all kinds of other smaller and bigger ships.
25000 is already much. Although I wouldn't mind having more....

Yes, I seriously thought the ISD's were numbered in the millions. It seemed only logical given the size of the GE. With the smaller destroyers, frigates, dreadnaughts, corvettes, etc., it would be interesting to see what numbers for the Imperial Fleet those could crunch.

Posted: **2002-09-24 12:13pm**

Oh well, I've tasted worse crow before...

Posted: **2002-09-24 11:22pm**

I have a question ok

Is the ISD superior to a Mon Cal Starship, and if an ISD is superior please tell me why?

And then tell me why the NR wouldnt use ISD's and replace Mon Cal Cruisers as its main capital ship?

Thank you and goodnight.

Posted: **2002-09-24 11:27pm**

They are different. It is unclear which one is better. The Mon Cal carries more fighters and has better shields. They also seem to be slightly faster. The ISD is much more heavily armed but carries fewer starfighters and has less capable shields. A possible reason for the NR's use of Mon Calamari ships is their comparatively low cost. Mon Calamari Cruisers are converted passenger liners. It takes much more money to build a new ISD than it does to modify an existing ship. Also, Mon Calamari ships can be built in a variety of shipyards, rather than in a few, isolated and state of the art facilities which crank out ISD's.

Posted: **2002-09-24 11:38pm**

Master of Ossus wrote:They are different. It is unclear which one is better. The Mon Cal carries more fighters and has better shields. They also seem to be slightly faster. The ISD is much more heavily armed but carries fewer starfighters and has less capable shields. A possible reason for the NR's use of Mon Calamari ships is their comparatively low cost. Mon Calamari Cruisers are converted passenger liners. It takes much more money to build a new ISD than it does to modify an existing ship. Also, Mon Calamari ships can be built in a variety of shipyards, rather than in a few, isolated and state of the art facilities which crank out ISD's.

What is the source for this information? I always thought that an isd carried 72 fighter and the standard 1,200m cal cr only 36. As to the shield output why would a converted ship like a cal cruiser have superior shileds compared to a dedicated capital ship like the ISD?

Posted: **2002-09-24 11:45pm**

Most of it is from the EGVV. The bit about the number of starfighters refers only to the largest and most powerful Mon Calamari Cruisers, which carry 10 squadrons of starfighters plus support ships in two hangar bays (ref. X-Wing: Alliance). That is nearly two full wings of starfighters.

The shield strength of Mon Calamari cruisers comes from an emphasis on using multiple sets of shields on the same ship, allowing damaged ones to be taken off-line temporarily while maintaining the other sets of shields to protect the hull. This allows for the ship to recharge its shields even during combat, an advantage that Imperator class ships do not share.

Posted: **2002-09-24 11:49pm**

Master of Ossus wrote:Most of it is from the EGVV. The bit about the number of starfighters refers only to the largest and most powerful Mon Calamari Cruisers, which carry 10 squadrons of starfighters plus support ships in two hangar bays (ref. X-Wing: Alliance). That is nearly two full wings of starfighters.

The shield strength of Mon Calamari cruisers comes from an emphasis on using multiple sets of shields on the same ship, allowing damaged ones to be taken off-line temporarily while maintaining the other sets of shields to protect the hull. This allows for the ship to recharge its shields even during combat, an advantage that Imperator class ships do not share.

The shield thing bothers me. Is that from WEG where the mon cal cruiser have backup shileds and the like. I'm not sure thats such a reliable source as it has been proven inaccurate many times over.

Are you referring to the Home One class in ROTJ about 3.8km in length more weapons and carries 100 or so fighters?

Posted: **2002-09-25 12:00am**

First of all, the shield thing may or may not be from WEG, but the EGVV also has it, as (I believe) do several EU books when they compare the two ships.

The Home One class does carry 10 squadrons of starfighters. That does, actually, translate to slightly more than 100, but the discrepency is easily explained away by the unreliability of some models of Alliance starfighters, so that their average combat strength may only be 100 fighters.

Posted: **2002-09-25 12:36am**

Master of Ossus wrote:First of all, the shield thing may or may not be from WEG, but the EGVV also has it, as (I believe) do several EU books when they compare the two ships.

The Home One class does carry 10 squadrons of starfighters. That does, actually, translate to slightly more than 100, but the discrepency is easily explained away by the unreliability of some models of Alliance starfighters, so that their average combat strength may only be 100 fighters.

Don't you think the EU writers get their info from WEG? or is that just chance?

Posted: **2002-09-25 12:45am**

you can do something i can not do. I cant accept the inaccuracies of the eu books and i will not use them for any factual basis. I would rather use Wongs page and Saxtons page. They are both accurate and make sense.

Posted: **2002-09-25 11:41am**

AL wrote:I have a question ok

Is the ISD superior to a Mon Cal Starship, and if an ISD is superior please tell me why?

And then tell me why the NR wouldnt use ISD's and replace Mon Cal Cruisers as its main capital ship?

Thank you and goodnight.

I would look at it this way, a MC as depicted in RotJ was a converted civilial ship that was out gunned by a ISD. However they lasted so long because of durability, they had decentralized weapons, and propulsion, as well as multiple shield systems. In short they could take a serious pounding witch enabled them to stand toe to toe with ships with heavier firepower.

As far as why the NR would use them instead of stardestroyers.

1 The ones in RotJ were converted civ ship, MonCal's said they would start designing purpose built warships for the NR.

2 Having above said durability with a increased weapons package would be a serious contender for a stardestroyer.

3 Buying these ship from MonCal instead of KDY or other well known companies that supplied imperial interest, is a political move to distance themselves from anything the imperials did with the hardware purchased from said companies.

4 Purchasing ships from a loyal founding member of the new goverment ensures continuation of the series and a secure contractor to continue building vessels for the goverment.

Posted: **2002-09-25 03:36pm**

Agree with decentralized shield systems and perhaps power, but the weapons are decentralized on virtually all SW capships.

Posted: **2002-09-26 03:01am**

I dont go with that either. In the movies the Imp sector fleet was given orders to keep the Rebels from escaping. THe Emperor intended the DSII to do all of the killing of the Rebel Capital Ships. Now in ROTJ when the Rebel fleeting engages the Imp fleet, many of the Mon Cal cruiser orient themselves above the ISD's. This keeps them out of the ISD's heavy guns firing arcs and if the Cal cruiser have ventral weapons which they do, gives them an advantage of firing on the Isds and taking little to no fire in return. A rather excellent tactic by Ackbar.

There was at least one cal cruiser that we saw in ROTJ exchanging broadside with an isd. We didnt see them fire at each other but I would bet the ISD won that conflict.

Posted: **2002-09-26 02:11pm**

AL wrote:I dont go with that either. In the movies the Imp sector fleet was given orders to keep the Rebels from escaping. THe Emperor intended the DSII to do all of the killing of the Rebel Capital Ships.

Probably for the large cruisers, but for the smaller vesseles a more ordainary naval solution was intended in my opinion.

Now in ROTJ when the Rebel fleeting engages the Imp fleet, many of the Mon Cal cruiser orient themselves above the ISD's. This keeps them out of the ISD's heavy guns firing arcs and if the Cal cruiser have ventral weapons which they do, gives them an advantage of firing on the Isds and taking little to no fire in return. A rather excellent tactic by Ackbar.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the heavy weapons on the port and starboard side on the dorsal surface of the ISD. On top of that (no pun intended) the screen shot I remember show the cruisers above and forward of the Stardestroyers. The ISD's are daggershaped to allow for max. firepower forward, so the rebel ship's would be in the major firing arc. The manuver apears to be just to get in quickly to shield themselves from the DS.

There was at least one cal cruiser that we saw in ROTJ exchanging broadside with an isd. We didnt see them fire at each other but I would bet the ISD won that conflict.

If we are thinking of the same seen, then that was a Neb.

Posted: **2002-09-26 02:13pm**

EEEEEk, stupid quote button.

Posted: **2002-09-26 04:08pm**

Knife wrote:
AL wrote:I dont go with that either. In the movies the Imp sector fleet was given orders to keep the Rebels from escaping. THe Emperor intended the DSII to do all of the killing of the Rebel Capital Ships.

Probably for the large cruisers, but for the smaller vesseles a more ordainary naval solution was intended in my opinion.

Now in ROTJ when the Rebel fleeting engages the Imp fleet, many of the Mon Cal cruiser orient themselves above the ISD's. This keeps them out of the ISD's heavy guns firing arcs and if the Cal cruiser have ventral weapons which they do, gives them an advantage of firing on the Isds and taking little to no fire in return. A rather excellent tactic by Ackbar.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the heavy weapons on the port and starboard side on the dorsal surface of the ISD. On top of that (no pun intended) the screen shot I remember show the cruisers above and forward of the Stardestroyers. The ISD's are daggershaped to allow for max. firepower forward, so the rebel ship's would be in the major firing arc. The manuver apears to be just to get in quickly to shield themselves from the DS.

There was at least one cal cruiser that we saw in ROTJ exchanging broadside with an isd. We didnt see them fire at each other but I would bet the ISD won that conflict.

If we are thinking of the same seen, then that was a Neb.

Posted: **2002-09-27 03:33pm**

Master of Ossus wrote:First of all, the shield thing may or may not be from WEG, but the EGVV also has it, as (I believe) do several EU books when they compare the two ships.

The Home One class does carry 10 squadrons of starfighters. That does, actually, translate to slightly more than 100, but the discrepency is easily explained away by the unreliability of some models of Alliance starfighters, so that their average combat strength may only be 100 fighters.

You have the EGVV book? please refer to page 202 the part about the author. Bill Smith is the editor for WEG. So this information was at least influenced by WEG.

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