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kaikatsu wrote: Generally, I hate the fact that so many episodes have really interesting implications, and never get used. "There's a machine that can send us to any time, any place?"

Actually, the animated series back in the 70's did revisit the Guardian of Forever, and one of Gene Roddenberry's suggested stories for Star Trek 2 was a plot involving Klingons using the Guardian to go back in time and assassinate John F. Kennedy. The intentions were there, but it just never happened.

The "crystalline entity" from TNG Datalore made a comeback, though. As did Professor Moriarty. Minuet from TNG 11001001 made a bit part return in TNG Future Imperfect. The clone from TNG Second Chances returned in DS9.

Yes, there's plenty of hanging threads that would have been fun to revisit, but it's not as if none of them ever were... and, to be fair, it's not as if the very same starship crew would necessarily always be the ones to come back to their old problems.

This might be a point of contention, but I tend to dislike one episode wonders. The original Star Trek had a lot of that -- an interesting new idea or planet that is ignored for all future episodes. I mean, the Dyson Sphere. The DYSON SPHERE! There could have been an entire SERIES based on the exploration of the Dyson Sphere, trying to unlock its secrets, or find out who made it. (Ringworld comes to mind.)

Did you just call TNG the "original Star Trek"?

Get out.

I will admit, the return of Crystalline Entity (and indeed, of Lore!) was, IMHO, one of the highpoints. It felt resolved. I just feel like such a thing needed to be done more -often-.

And really, characters don't have to come back. They aren't the ones that irk me (though I love it when they DO come back.) Big episode ideas, though, BIG ones -- those tend to get wasted more often than not.

I didn't know that thing about the Guardian though... that's neat. But it seems to be that such a thing would affect the entire UNIVERSE. I get very angry when Trek Writers fail to say "Will this solution work on problems besides this one? How many problems will I be excluding?"

Riker cloning himself is a good example. The character showing up again is well and good, but I fail to see how, after they figured out exactly how this happens, someone didn't clue into the extremely unethical idea that this could be used advantageously. I'd be on top of this faster than you can say clone army.

Regarding the last bit... oh wow... I never... *reads up* I did, indeed, just call TNG the "original trek" or so it seems. While not my intent... g'ah! Smackdown duly accepted.

Riker cloning himself is a good example. The character showing up again is well and good, but I fail to see how, after they figured out exactly how this happens, someone didn't clue into the extremely unethical idea that this could be used advantageously. I'd be on top of this faster than you can say clone army.

The Second Chances clone was created by a possibly unreproduceable accident during an event that only happens once every X years. It's not what I would call a viable cloning method.

Oh, I agree on the hanging plot threads. That bugged me about Trek even as a small child.

To Alyeska: Those are two pretty darn good movies, and they were produced right after the fourth season. "In the Beginning" (Minbari war) got me and my parents into the series. If you liked those, I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy the arc of the main series.

I'd start on Season 2, if you ever find it cheap; it's much better than Season 1 on average, the first episode introduces Sheridan and serves as a sort of "second pilot" for new viewers, and it has "The Coming of Shadows," the show's first Hugo-winner and still one of the very best episodes.

Season 1 has some great moments, character introductions, and tons of foreshadowing, but it's not great if you want to jump into it. Especially since seeing "In the Beginning" gave you a decent grounding in the backstory.

I think the greatest waste was Star Trek V, but I'm biased towards original and movie-era Trek. Shatner had something and I'm not convinced it was entirely his fault that the movie turned out badly. The crappy effects company, for instance, was certainly not his fault but whichever producer chose it.

We saw more of the Enterprise in that movie than any other. It gave the ship character and it made the ship feel real.

But the characters who weren't Shatner got hosed. That was nobody's fault but his.

Sonnenburg wrote:But the characters who weren't Shatner got hosed. That was nobody's fault but his.

Spock and McCoy got good stuff. Scotty's pratfall would have worked if his capture didn't hinge on it and he wasn't knocked unconcious. Chekov had a nice dramatic scene when he ordered warp speed to escape the BOP. I can't honestly think of anything Sulu did, though. Uhura got shafted, too.

The part where it finally went over the top was that only Kirk could resist Sybok's (sp?) powers. That was just a little too egocentric, even for this film.

The script was really just bad, I don't think any level of effects could have saved it.

Sonnenburg wrote:The part where it finally went over the top was that only Kirk could resist Sybok's (sp?) powers. That was just a little too egocentric, even for this film.

The script was really just bad, I don't think any level of effects could have saved it.

Gah, I forgot about that part. Well, that's another reason why the movie was wasted.

Sonnenburg wrote:The part where it finally went over the top was that only Kirk could resist Sybok's (sp?) powers. That was just a little too egocentric, even for this film.

The script was really just bad, I don't think any level of effects could have saved it.

The script was bad, but that wasn't entirely Shatner's doing. Paramount meddled a lot in it, they forced him to change a lot of aspects, they dumped a writer on him to punch up the script and add a bunch of gags because they didn't think people would accept a really serious movie right after Star Trek 4.

What StarshipTitanic is getting at is that Shatner was definitely reaching for something a helluva lot bigger and grander than most of the franchise has ever aspired to. If it were produced exactly as he had envisioned it, it would certainly be a flawed production - but, frankly, every production has it's flaws, and like others here I can't help but wonder if the story had the potential to outshine those flaws.

The crappy effects company, for instance, was certainly not his fault but whichever producer chose it.

ILM was booked solid and would not have been able to work on The Final Frontier... but they certainly should have gone with a company that already knew how to do the work that was being asked of them.

EDIT: I think Kirk escaping Sybok's grasp would have worked better if they had instead emphasized that Kirk was just about to start getting brainwashed by Sybok when he's interrupted by their approach to the Barrier. Similarly, the Barrier would have itself been a much more plausible aspect if it had been the Barrier encountered repeatedly in TOS.

That would certainly mitigate Shatner's responsibility, and I'm not going to lay the whole thing at his feet. However, it does seem like Shatner was rather in love with himself. In addition to the "only Kirk can resist" shtick, Kirk's also the first to recognize the flaw in "God" needing a starship. You'd think that with Spock being a logical (and thus likely more skeptical) and very smart person, he'd have reached that conclusion immediately.

Uraniun235 wrote:ILM was booked solid and would not have been able to work on The Final Frontier... but they certainly should have gone with a company that already knew how to do the work that was being asked of them.

Or at the very least, actually cared about what the hell they were doing. Supposedly, the effects supervisor at Associates & Ferren didn't give a shit about the quality of their work...

I actually think to say that Kirk 'resisted' Sybok is not correct. He simply said, I'm not playing along with you. (in essence) I would define resisting
as Kirk putting up some kind of fight against some force Sybok was using.
If I recall, there was nothing like that. Kirk just basically said, I'm not trying to have a therapy session at the moment, thank you. And that was that.

One of the things Shatner wanted in TFF was a real ground combat scene. Those phaser pistols they used were designed to be very combat looking, modeled after Berrete 92s. The clothing worn by the security troops was also meant to emphasive this. Shatner even picked out a real nasty evil sound for the phasers to make, but Paramount made him drop it. They wanted it less intimidating.

^ That would have been so much better than what we got it's not even funny.

Despite some good moments and lines ("Actually, it's my first attempt") I can't even watch STV anymore. I don't care whose fault it is, it's just bad.

faster than you can say clone army

That reminds me of some cool behind-the-scenes notes the production crew made for ST:TMP, including the mention of one of the alien races in the film, being able to clone themselves quickly and thus providing the Federation with a sizable army in a short time.

Hear that potential dripping away...? =P

Equinox2003 wrote:I actually think to say that Kirk 'resisted' Sybok is not correct. He simply said, I'm not playing along with you. (in essence) I would define resisting
as Kirk putting up some kind of fight against some force Sybok was using.
If I recall, there was nothing like that. Kirk just basically said, I'm not trying to have a therapy session at the moment, thank you. And that was that.

No, I refuse.

Jim, if you'd just unbend about this—

And get tricked by the con-man? I know what my weakness are. I don't need Sybok to take me on a tour of them.

It isn't like that at all, Jim. Sybok cured me of my pain—

Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know pain and grief simply can't be waved away with a magic wand. They're a part of our memories, part of what makes us what we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't wan't to lose my pain. I NEED MY PAIN.

Just about one of the most intelligent things Kirk ever says in Star Trek.

^ Yeah, I'll give you that one.

That reminds me of some cool behind-the-scenes notes the production crew made for ST:TMP, including the mention of one of the alien races in the film, being able to clone themselves quickly and thus providing the Federation with a sizable army in a short time.

Hear that potential dripping away...? =P

Yes! Allow me to put it into words:

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHH!

Patrick Degan wrote:

Equinox2003 wrote:I actually think to say that Kirk 'resisted' Sybok is not correct. He simply said, I'm not playing along with you. (in essence) I would define resisting
as Kirk putting up some kind of fight against some force Sybok was using.
If I recall, there was nothing like that. Kirk just basically said, I'm not trying to have a therapy session at the moment, thank you. And that was that.

No, I refuse.

Jim, if you'd just unbend about this—

And get tricked by the con-man? I know what my weakness are. I don't need Sybok to take me on a tour of them.

It isn't like that at all, Jim. Sybok cured me of my pain—

Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know pain and grief simply can't be waved away with a magic wand. They're a part of our memories, part of what makes us what we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't wan't to lose my pain. I NEED MY PAIN.

Just about one of the most intelligent things Kirk ever says in Star Trek.

There is that and the "What does God need with a starship?" line and proceeding conversation with Bones and Spock.

Both of the conversations I found some of Kirk's best points in that movie, and some of his better in the line of movies.