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What's been bugging me is the fact that Vader actually had more to do with bringing down the Sith, in the long run, than bringing any sort of order to the galaxy. If anything, Palpatine was more pivotal toward establishing a Sith regime/empire...

biostem wrote:What's been bugging me is the fact that Vader actually had more to do with bringing down the Sith, in the long run, than bringing any sort of order to the galaxy. If anything, Palpatine was more pivotal toward establishing a Sith regime/empire...

In the legendaries Darth Vader was more of the sysbol of the Imperial power, while it was known that he ultimetly was just a servant that wasn't commonly known was that Palpatine was anything else then a byrocrat that was able to grab power during the end times of the Old Republic.

It's been heavily implied that the "First Order" isn't running with the full facts or belive those to just rebel misinformation, so it's possible that they know just enough of the Sith philosophy to assume that Vader was the real driving force (pun unintended) behind the Empire with Palpatine seen as figure head but not enough to know that Palpatine was in fact head of the Sith Order and the one with the real power.

Lord Revan wrote:..the sysbol of the Imperial power...

I meant "symbol" damn typos

biostem wrote:What's been bugging me is the fact that Vader actually had more to do with bringing down the Sith, in the long run, than bringing any sort of order to the galaxy. If anything, Palpatine was more pivotal toward establishing a Sith regime/empire...

Palpatine arguably couldn't have pulled off what he did without Anakin. It was Anakin who turned on Windu, Anakin who lead the assault on the Jedi Temple.

Has it been canonically established that Palpatine wasn't faking his defeat and needed Anakin to deal with Windu? I wonder how Order 66 would have been different without him. Would Palpatine just send an overwhelming number of clones into the Jedi temple or would he order an bombardment of the place just to be sure?

Galvatron wrote:Has it been canonically established that Palpatine wasn't faking his defeat and needed Anakin to deal with Windu? I wonder how Order 66 would have been different without him. Would Palpatine just send an overwhelming number of clones into the Jedi temple or would he order an bombardment of the place just to be sure?

Even with the old canon, which gave Mace Windu his own pet lightsaber style devoted to fighting the Dark Side, it was always ambiguous. Now that the book that established that idea is no longer canon, there is less evidence on the Windu side. Most who argue in favor of Windu seem simply use Occam's Razor. He appeared to win, therefore it is likely that he did. This could be backed up by Anakin's quote from AOTC, in which he refers to Yoda as wise and Mace Windu as powerful.

The argument in favor of Palpatine is that he effortlessly killed the first three Jedi and Windu was powerless to stop him. Thus it makes sense that he drew out the final combatant in order to make it look good for Anakin. He after all was willing to let himself be captured to game Skywalker against Dooku and eliminate a potential rival. Another underlying assumption of this perspective seems to be based on the fact that because Yoda lost, then Mace Windu should have as well(despite the above quote).

Assuming that Palpatine would have won regardless, clones would have been able to clear the Jedi temple without Anakin, if not easily. Consider that they already killed multiple council members in the field with Order 66, there was no one in the Jedi temple that they could not defeat with enough conventional firepower. An orbital bombardment against the capital would be much harder to justify than a mass of clones. It's not like clones were treated as anything other than expendable anyway. It would be like the US president nuking Quantico to take out the FBI Academy. It would be far easier to justify sending in the Marines to do it instead(especially since they surround it).

EDIT: Forgot to mention that it is however possible that Anakin opened the door for the Clones. Without him they would have had to get in the hard way with raw firepower. WHich would have both made a mess and alerted the Jedi inside. It is highly likely that without him, more Jedi might have gotten away.

Spoilers from EU below:

Lord Revan wrote: It's been heavily implied that the "First Order" isn't running with the full facts or belive those to just rebel misinformation, so it's possible that they know just enough of the Sith philosophy to assume that Vader was the real driving force (pun unintended) behind the Empire with Palpatine seen as figure head but not enough to know that Palpatine was in fact head of the Sith Order and the one with the real power.

I wonder if that might eventually lead to Kylo Ren's redemption in which he learns that Vader actually killed the final Sith Lord and turns on the Dark Side. A random idea I had with that is a three way lightsaber duel between Kylo, Rey, and Finn. Rey is out for revenge for the events of TFA and wants to kill Kylo, Kylo wants to kill her, and Finn doesn't want either to die as he believes that Kylo could be redeemed. What would be interesting is if she was the most powerful, Kylo was the most experienced, and Finn was the wild card.

Kylo could even possibly sacrifice himself against the wellspring of the Dark Side itself(as described in Aftermath). I found another intereting theory that describes the underlying goals of the Sith and how the Knights of Ren are attempting to finish what they started. No idea how the Jedi and Rey ultimately fit into this.

Lord Revan wrote:It's been heavily implied that the "First Order" isn't running with the full facts or belive those to just rebel misinformation, so it's possible that they know just enough of the Sith philosophy to assume that Vader was the real driving force (pun unintended) behind the Empire with Palpatine seen as figure head but not enough to know that Palpatine was in fact head of the Sith Order and the one with the real power.

Sorry pal. The reactions of non-Vader Imperials to the Emperor in both ESB and ROTJ dispell that idea. On top of that the non-Vader Imperials get to see Vader's own reaction to being summoned by Vader in ESB. Mon Mothma also is quite clear about the Emperor's importance in ROTJ.

Now, did the rank and file know he was a Sith or a force user period? No. That's not the same as being just another bureaucrat. Hitler or Stalin had lots of very scary front of office enforcers, but nobody doubted who was the center of gravity in those regimes.

Patroklos wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:It's been heavily implied that the "First Order" isn't running with the full facts or belive those to just rebel misinformation, so it's possible that they know just enough of the Sith philosophy to assume that Vader was the real driving force (pun unintended) behind the Empire with Palpatine seen as figure head but not enough to know that Palpatine was in fact head of the Sith Order and the one with the real power.

Sorry pal. The reactions of non-Vader Imperials to the Emperor in both ESB and ROTJ dispell that idea. On top of that the non-Vader Imperials get to see Vader's own reaction to being summoned by Vader in ESB. Mon Mothma also is quite clear about the Emperor's importance in ROTJ.

Now, did the rank and file know he was a Sith or a force user period? No. That's not the same as being just another bureaucrat. Hitler or Stalin had lots of very scary front of office enforcers, but nobody doubted who was the center of gravity in those regimes.

you misunderstood me the "just another bureaucrat" line referred to SENATOR Palpatine, there's no dout that the Emperor was very important once who accended to the throne but at least in the legendaries few people knew that Palpatine was powerful outside of the power that comes with the title of "emperor of the Galactic Empire", strip Hitler or Stalin of their titles and they're just old men and at least in case of Hitler in rather poor health.

Strip Palpatine of his title of emperor and he's still a powerful sith lord.

we have to remember that if we assume that human characters are roughly the same age as their actors all revealed characters would have been children or not even born when the Empire fell, now consider that Kylo Ren would been hearing imperial propaganda for most of his lifetime as would most members of the First Order, hence the line "I was raised to do one thing" from Finn. It isn't odd that members of the Knights of Ren would have just enough information on the Sith to think that Vader was the true power behind the Empire.

bare in mind that The Force Unleashed happens 30 or so years after Return of the Jedi, not 2 hours after it.

So apparently the world premier was tonight in LA. Wouldn't be surprised if we get a full synopsis leaked tonight, so I think I'll be avoiding Star Wars discussions until I see it (probably no sooner than the 26th.).

I predict a 65-70% score on RottenTomatoes. Some people will hate it, of course. I'm going in with low expectations, but even I'm not immune to the hype. The trailers have certainly pushed all the right buttons, but I suspect there will be some plot development that will either make or break this movie for me.

It's been hyped by about everyone I know. I figure it'll get rave reviews all around... at first. Then it'll become popular to bash it, later.

One week until I get this film INTO MY BRAIN, good or bad.

In preperation, I've downloaded the Despecialized Edition of the Original Trilogy, as the only versions I've ever seen were the 1997 editions. I'm really looking forward to watching the first film tonight

Crazedwraith wrote:It's been hyped by about everyone I know. I figure it'll get rave reviews all around... at first. Then it'll become popular to bash it, later.

Yeah I also agree that this will most likely be the scenario that happens at some point after the release. That is how the internet works. It is fueled by cynicism and hate. All these internet critics will make their videos about it and find whatever they can to bash it. They get more viewers that way. They know their fan base will expect some kind of comedy routine from these guys and that includes bashing.

Andy Wylde wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:It's been hyped by about everyone I know. I figure it'll get rave reviews all around... at first. Then it'll become popular to bash it, later.

Yeah I also agree that this will most likely be the scenario that happens at some point after the release. That is how the internet works. It is fueled by cynicism and hate. All these internet critics will make their videos about it and find whatever they can to bash it. They get more viewers that way. They know their fan base will expect some kind of comedy routine from these guys and that includes bashing.

I dunno, not all of them are without integrity. For instance, here's how Honest Trailers handled Captain America 2.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:It's been hyped by about everyone I know. I figure it'll get rave reviews all around... at first. Then it'll become popular to bash it, later.

Yeah I also agree that this will most likely be the scenario that happens at some point after the release. That is how the internet works. It is fueled by cynicism and hate. All these internet critics will make their videos about it and find whatever they can to bash it. They get more viewers that way. They know their fan base will expect some kind of comedy routine from these guys and that includes bashing.

I dunno, not all of them are without integrity. For instance, here's how Honest Trailers handled Captain America 2.

Yes that is very true. But maybe I should have said a good majority act in that manner. But there are plenty of good critics out there on the net as well.

Rogue 9 wrote: I dunno, not all of them are without integrity. For instance, here's how Honest Trailers handled Captain America 2.

Though Cinema Sins didn't seem to like it as much, spending more time on it than several worse movies like Star Trek-Into-Darkness. Though the fact that they can find a range of nitpicks for a film doesn't make it bad. They even did one on The Hunt for Red October, which the narrator apparently considers his second favorite movie of all time.

Eight hours, twenty minutes.

I'm oddly excited.

Gandalf wrote:Eight hours, twenty minutes.

I'm oddly excited.

You get to be the first one to open the spoilers thread.

It would be nice if unannounced spoilers for Force Unleashed would not be given until Jan 1st at the earliest, even if it was the worst thing ever put on film.

Reviews are up on IMDB. No real spoilers currently. Though it is unknown if these people have actually seen the movie. The negative reviews look like they haven't.

Crazedwraith wrote:It's been hyped by about everyone I know. I figure it'll get rave reviews all around... at first. Then it'll become popular to bash it, later.

Mainly because fans tend to be the ones that keep on rewatching the same film over and over again. The really good films can stand up even upon multiple rewatching, while many decent movies would start to become less appealing once you try and over analyse everything.

Having read a couple of mainstream spoiler-free reviews the impression I get is that is it largely a remake of ANH, for better or worse. The other impression is that spoilers would in fact ruin it because there is a strong sense of discovery throughout the movie. Whoops. Little late for that one.

That second bit is why I am glad someone other than Abrams is doing the sequels. He is excellent on setup of mysteries but often less than stellar on payoff. Rian Johnson is far better in this respect.

ray245 wrote:Mainly because fans tend to be the ones that keep on rewatching the same film over and over again. The really good films can stand up even upon multiple rewatching, while many decent movies would start to become less appealing once you try and over analyze everything.

Even truly great movies have plot holes that could in some ways ruin them. Citizen Kane is often hailed as the greatest film of all time and yet Kane never spoke the word Rosebud to anyone. He died alone. Thus, how did any of the reporters know he said it? Does that fact make it a bad movie?

Adam Reynolds wrote:Having read a couple of mainstream spoiler-free reviews the impression I get is that is it largely a remake of ANH, for better or worse. The other impression is that spoilers would in fact ruin it because there is a strong sense of discovery throughout the movie. Whoops. Little late for that one.

That second bit is why I am glad someone other than Abrams is doing the sequels. He is excellent on setup of mysteries but often less than stellar on payoff. Rian Johnson is far better in this respect.

ray245 wrote:Mainly because fans tend to be the ones that keep on rewatching the same film over and over again. The really good films can stand up even upon multiple rewatching, while many decent movies would start to become less appealing once you try and over analyze everything.

Even truly great movies have plot holes that could in some ways ruin them. Citizen Kane is often hailed as the greatest film of all time and yet Kane never spoke the word Rosebud to anyone. He died alone. Thus, how did any of the reporters know he said it? Does that fact make it a bad movie?

Well no one is going to say there isn't a great movie without any plot holes, no matter how minor it is. What makes a movie great isn't necessary about how much plot holes it have, but how all those minor flaws could be ignored again and again by the viewer.

Look at James Cameron's Avatar for example. Biggest movie of all time and almost everyone have forgotten about it in pop culture.

It's getting 4 and 5 star reviews across the board so far, with a very few outlying exceptions. Did we really expect anything else? Den of Geek gave it a solid 4 stars, and I trust them. This is looking like a great addition to the franchise so far, but we shall see...we shall see...