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Yeah, I think people can just use "caesar" most of the time.

As for the human armies, have massive drafts been instituted in all nations? What is the mobilizational capacity of human armies right now?

And why do the Russians not send our bomber fleets to do some bombing in Hell? After all, it's some kind of target practice for the strategic aviation.

[R_H] wrote:Take a look at his (horribly organized and formatted) "Combat Reform" webpages.

I have, but I didn't know Sparks was responsible for those webpages until I saw the "info" he posted on YouTube regarding submarine aircraft carriers, which reminded me of something I read about in Air-Mech-Strike. (I thought some of his ideas were cool, e.g., the M1 "pedestal tank" with an unmanned turret, but the added details on his webpage showed that he's hopelessly deluded about the feasibility of his proposed wank-tanks and wank-birds.)

Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, I think people can just use "caesar" most of the time.

I think Mr. Slade is trying to distinguish Julius Caesar from the Roman emperors who used "Caesar" as their title, e.g., Octavius/Augustus.

And why do the Russians not send our bomber fleets to do some bombing in Hell? After all, it's some kind of target practice for the strategic aviation.

IIRC, the US military has FAR MORE experience basing their aircraft outside of the continental United States, so they have the planning and logistic support systems in place to launch aircraft from airbases closer to the targets, e.g., in Iraq or Free Hell.

IIRC, the US military has FAR MORE experience basing their aircraft outside of the continental United States

I seriously doubt there are airfields capable of taking in the strategic bombers in Free Hell. Most of the flighst are done from the portal, at range, and as I understood, we can open them.

Stas Bush wrote:

IIRC, the US military has FAR MORE experience basing their aircraft outside of the continental United States

I seriously doubt there are airfields capable of taking in the strategic bombers in Free Hell. Most of the flighst are done from the portal, at range, and as I understood, we can open them.

Humans can open very small, limited, and short-lived portals, which puts a heavy strain on the human creating it. The portals are only big enough to deliver small infantry teams or supplies, which is how Free Hell keeps supplied. If a bomber has to launch a strike, it has to go through the Hellmouth, though IIRC the humans are trying to open one in Hell's oceans to deploy carrier groups.

If Heaven tries to invade Hell while also attacking Earth, it could actually end up being the one with the two-front war instead of Earth as it was looking to be earlier, fighting humans in both places plus the baldricks in Hell, since they probably hate Yahweh and his choir more than the thought of fighting with the cattle that just beat them.

If a bomber has to launch a strike, it has to go through the Hellmouth

Ah, I see. That is a vulnerability quite surely... humans will need to be able to open more portals

Now there's a heavy human presence in Hell, could there not be an arms drop of some kind into Free Hell?

Kie99 wrote:Now there's a heavy human presence in Hell, could there not be an arms drop of some kind into Free Hell?

There was; 2 Para flew in.

Rail traffic into Hell might be advantageous if the campaign is long (which it certainly would be).

How possible it is to lay down rail from Baghdad into Europe?

JointStrikeFighter wrote:There was; 2 Para flew in.

Nitpick - the correct abbreviation for 2nd Battalion, the Parachute Regiment is 2 PARA, not 2 Para. That has been really irritating me for some reason.

Darth Wong wrote:

JBG wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:Caesar is the 'legitimate' ruler of 2 million people in hell ...

Why is Ceasar the "legitimate" ruler of free hell?

Methinks someone has a reading comprehension problem. The statement and your response to it did not match.

In any case, this is a COALITION, and this Colonel undoubtedly realizes that in the absence of instructions to the contrary, human factions are all assumed to be on the same side. Caesar is the leader of a large human faction. Ergo, he should be considered part of the human coalition. Ergo, other coalition members are expected to work with him.

Umm, well put Mr Wong. On reflection the questions I asked of Stuart Mackey and my criticisms of him were utterly unfounded so I withdraw them unconditionally. The "wanker" tag I'll have to cop on the chin Mr Mackey as deserved in the circumstances.

Greetings, all:

It would be most informative if comparative orders of battle for the Human and Infernal forces were to be listed. By this, I mean any and all forces engaged in the Hell campaign, to include those units performing airstrikes through the Hellmouth, and those humans operating in and from Free Hell.
The information could be further expanded to list KIA on both sides.

Mike Garrity

"the added details on his webpage showed that he's hopelessly deluded about the feasibility of his proposed wank-tanks and wank-birds."

They sound like "napkinwaffe"!

"Rail traffic into Hell might be advantageous if the campaign is long (which it certainly would be).

How possible it is to lay down rail from Baghdad into Europe?"

From Istanbul the existing rail is adequate but there are major mountanous regions betwixt Baghdad and Istanbul. It maybe better to plug the gap with sea transport and cheaper to upgrade port facilities. Rail through Iran to the north, to Russia, may be a better bet as well.

Jonathan

Michael Garrity wrote:Greetings, all:

It would be most informative if comparative orders of battle for the Human and Infernal forces were to be listed. By this, I mean any and all forces engaged in the Hell campaign, to include those units performing airstrikes through the Hellmouth, and those humans operating in and from Free Hell.
The information could be further expanded to list KIA on both sides.

Mike Garrity

I enquired about OOBs and TOEs some time ago but I admit that such don't match the pace of this story. TBO or TLW or FFO, for instance, are better situations for such fascinating detail.

Jonathan

Michael Garrity wrote: It would be most informative if comparative orders of battle for the Human and Infernal forces were to be listed. By this, I mean any and all forces engaged in the Hell campaign, to include those units performing airstrikes through the Hellmouth, and those humans operating in and from Free Hell. The information could be further expanded to list KIA on both sides.

Well, i could write out these detailed orders of battle but then I'd have to stop writing the story while I did it. The human forces in hell OOB is changing hourly anyway as more forces pour in, the US and Iranians were first on the scene since they were closest and aircraft are arriving as fast as airbases capable of handlling them arrive (the Humans have everything from MiG-17s and F-105s to Typhoons, Rafales and F-22s flying in). Now, Indian, Chinese Japanese and SouthA merican units are beginning to show up.

As for Hell, the basic OOB is that Satan had 6,666 legions of which 999 were professional full-time troops. the rest are militia many of whom "haven't held a trident for centuries" 60 of the regulars were destroyed under Abigor and 486 are involved in the Battle of the Phlegethon River.

A Satanic "Army" has 81 legions made up of harpies, cavalry and foot-soldiers in varying proportions. A legion has a total strength of 6,666 demons, the basic unit being a nine-strong section (8 line plus one NCO) There are 729 sections in a legion. 81 sections make a Cohort, 9 cohorts to a legion.

More than that, its not really time-effective to elaborate on.

Kie99 wrote:Now there's a heavy human presence in Hell, could there not be an arms drop of some kind into Free Hell?

Hell is a huge area, arms dropped at random would fall into demon hands and that would be a very bad thing. Once humans have escaped and are out, they can be contacted, and a portal opened to them which then allows arms to be handed directly to them. Also, like everything else, its a question of available resources. Helciopters aren't really usable unless ahrpies are cleared out of the way first and transport aircraft are all tied down keeping the forces deployed in hell supplied. It's a massive undertaking; the human forces in hell are entirely mechanized and just keeping fuel flowing to them is a real problem.

Stuart wrote:

Kie99 wrote:Now there's a heavy human presence in Hell, could there not be an arms drop of some kind into Free Hell?

Hell is a huge area, arms dropped at random would fall into demon hands and that would be a very bad thing. Once humans have escaped and are out, they can be contacted, and a portal opened to them which then allows arms to be handed directly to them. Also, like everything else, its a question of available resources. Helciopters aren't really usable unless ahrpies are cleared out of the way first and transport aircraft are all tied down keeping the forces deployed in hell supplied. It's a massive undertaking; the human forces in hell are entirely mechanized and just keeping fuel flowing to them is a real problem.

I'm seeing the growing problem for fighting heaven isn't going to be finding them, but rather keeping our guys supplied for the fight with heaven.

Has there been any use of cluster munitions by Human forces in the Hell campaign thus far? They would seem to be a logical inclusion.
Are there plans to incorporate the use of Willey Pete or Thermobarics?

Mike Garrity

Wasn't WP already used earlier in the Battle of the Phlegethon River?

Stas Bush wrote:Rail traffic into Hell might be advantageous if the campaign is long (which it certainly would be).

How possible it is to lay down rail from Baghdad into Europe?

One line already exists, the Berlin to Bagdad railroad was completed in 1918, and rail traffic can now cross the Bosporus by bridge along the way (they used to use a ferry). The Turkish railway system also connected into Syria, which has an additional connection into Iraq. IIRC a railway connection into the Turkish system also comes from Russia. However with such great distances, and mostly single track railroads most stuff is going to have to go by sea; though the existing railroads of Iraq could then be used to move it relatively close to the hellmouth. Far as I can tell that’s what the ‘highway to hell’ was for, connecting the gap from the closest Iraqi railroad to the hellmouth.

New railroads through Turkey and northern Iraq would require blasting new tunnels, and that will take years. The best places to work on for quick results would be improving the existing line from the Syrian coast to Iraq, and the line from the Iraqi port of Umm Qasr to central Iraq, while building new spurs directly to the hellmouth from each direction. Adding more passing tracks and larger marshalling yards could greatly increase capacity of all these railroad, without the time delays of new bridges and tunnels to actually make the lines double tracked.

Also Iran has a railway connection to Russia via way of the Cacauses; it doesn’t connect to the Iraqi system but it does go to Khorramshahr, which is less then 25 miles from existing Iraqi tracks. The Shatt al-Arab waterway is in-between the two systems, but that river is nothing huge, train ferries could easily be used to make the connection.

Stuart wrote:

Kie99 wrote:Now there's a heavy human presence in Hell, could there not be an arms drop of some kind into Free Hell?

Hell is a huge area, arms dropped at random would fall into demon hands and that would be a very bad thing. Once humans have escaped and are out, they can be contacted, and a portal opened to them which then allows arms to be handed directly to them. Also, like everything else, its a question of available resources. Helciopters aren't really usable unless ahrpies are cleared out of the way first and transport aircraft are all tied down keeping the forces deployed in hell supplied. It's a massive undertaking; the human forces in hell are entirely mechanized and just keeping fuel flowing to them is a real problem.

It's too bad they can't liberate hundreds of thousands of targeted individuals (like deceased soldiers from the past wars of a given country, like America or Russia) en masse and then arm them, because they would probably be fairly controllable from a single chain of command, and their supply requirements would be greatly decreased because they don't need maintenance, food, spare parts, etc.

I think the political forces of Russia would be keen on liberating the deceased Russian soldiers from WWII - there's millions of them, and they are used to more or less modern munitions.

Also, what concerns the Hell army. Given Stuart's calculations, it is about 44 million in total strength, with 6 million "experienced" troops so to say.

This means their mobilizational reserve is probably ~100 million, and the daemonic population is between 100 and 300 million (considering the vastly different rules of life in Hell, and an almost-absent economy due to revitalizing properties of Hell).

I agree giving Hell humans stuff like aircraft is meaningless; but anti-air defenses? Like, light, fast AA guns from WWII? Probably meaningful. Even horse-carried, they'd be of great help.

Fuelling and motorization is not required for some of the lighter guns too; giving them machineguns and autocannons (20-30 mm) would be the first priority. They would need no fuel, only ammo to operate.

Usual firearms could be shipped en masse by naval bulk traffic. I'm pretty sure the Russian stockpiles of AK-74 and the Chinese production could offer the deceased Russian and Chinese soldiers from various XX century wars a good base to build on.

I won't be amazed if AK-47 makes it's way to the emblem of Free Hell

Stas Bush wrote: Usual firearms could be shipped en masse by naval bulk traffic.

Unless you are talking about something I am not aware of, or I missed part of the story, but, I thought Hell had no real waterways, and the only ocean is around the entire continent of Hell, so, where could naval stuff be used?

I won't be amazed if AK-47 makes it's way to the emblem of Free Hell

It might, but Mikhail will have to upgrade it from 7.62x39mm to something that'd actually kill Baldricks rather than just piss them off, like the 5.56mm M16 round did.

An AK variant chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum, perhaps?
Though God help you if you fired it in full automatic.

Unless you are talking about something I am not aware of

I'm talking about getting containers full of guns, guns and more automatic guns into Iraq, where they'd be then transported in massive trains and cargo cars to Hellmouth.

If the Naval Portal gets opened into Hell, that will make shipping huge quantities of guns yet easier.

An AK variant chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum, perhaps?

There are large-caliber AK-derived modifications. With Baldricks, I presume accuracy is less important than firepower - they are a good but sturgy target, much like a beast. The .458 is designed to kill the largest beasts of Africa; should work

Of course one shouldn't forget the mobile infantry machine guns. Useful guns would be:

* - the KPV (large-caliber Vladimirov Machine Gun), ROF 600 per minute, 14,5x114 mm. Of course the ZPU-1, ZPU-2 and ZPU-4 are a must have. They would shred Harpies.

Weight (with wheeled gun emplacement): 161 kg, without: 47,5 kg
40 shots in belt
Range: 2000 m
Muzzle velocity: 976 до 1005 m/s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV_heavy_machine_gun

Considering that it's apparently the heaviest MG ever made and that it's infantry version was abandoned only due to it being too heavy for a modern infantry (these considerations hardly apply to Hell where manpower is plenty)

Spamming this weapon is a must.

* - DSHK(M) - rather cheap and effective to spam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DShK
* - NSV (nikitin, Sokolov, Volkov heavy MG, 12,7 mm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSV
* - KORD - the new Russian 12,7 mm MG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSV

Stockpiles of these MGs must be HUGE.

* - M2 machine gun 12,7 mm, XM312 MG, etc.

Of course the greatest gun ever made falls slightly short of the KPV's enormous firepower (the KPV's muzzle energy surpasses the DSHK and M2 twice). Still it's enormous stockpiles just like the other three large-serial production guns frm teh USSR, are an advantage.