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Now wait just a second. Let's assume a basic degree of competence on behalf of my forces - The Naval and Air Force casualties are fairly reasonable, I suppose, though I am a bit skeptical that my navy, which is fully modern, could miss some old SSKs from a Third World shithole navy sitting right underneath them, but 80% casualties for the land forces? Deliberately bypassing enemy forces where possible, and against the equivalent of Iraq? I think not. Perhaps someone less biased than you or I could come up with losses?

Type 214s are not old. Not by any desperate, cowardly stretch of the imagination.

The first Type 214 was not even launched until 2004.

And I'm fairly frustrated that you've gone and done the same thing you accused me of doing with regards to the air bases I bombed. If you can do catastrophic damage against targets with, again, modern AA emplacements and vastly superior planes ready to scramble at the first sign of trouble, I can do catastrophic damage to comparatively-undefended bases. Or at least turn away when my pilots spot the hundreds of planes arrayed against them.

Quick Question: What Year is it? 2015?

He did leave you an out. Your carrier and cruisers could simply be heavily damaged, as opposed to sunk. As for your ground troops...well, they shouldn't have really been there anyway.

EDIT: yes, it's 2015. i think fall, but i'm not sure.

Czechmate wrote:Type 214s are not old. Not by any desperate, cowardly stretch of the imagination.

The first Type 214 was not even launched until 2004.

And have not been accepted by one of the three navies that bought some due to excessive cavitation and seawater leaking into the boat. This is not precisely the picture of modern efficiency.

Czechmate wrote:EDIT: yes, it's 2015. i think fall, but i'm not sure.

Oh, I know what day it is, to the day, the year just keeps escaping me. (It is very roughly 88 days until 2016.)

I should really just have it recorded somewhere, like the math problem to determine what day it is in game.

Master_Baerne wrote:Now wait just a second. Let's assume a basic degree of competence on behalf of my forces - The Naval and Air Force casualties are fairly reasonable, I suppose, though I am a bit skeptical that my navy, which is fully modern, could miss some old SSKs from a Third World shithole navy sitting right underneath them, but 80% casualties for the land forces? Deliberately bypassing enemy forces where possible, and against the equivalent of Iraq? I think not. Perhaps someone less biased than you or I could come up with losses?

You have zero (0) ADA that's with your divisions that aren't essentially MANPADs. It's not hard to attack when you have both the ability to contest the air, and no SAMs that can effectively get to your altitude. Light ADA doesn't count for jack squat when you don't have air superiority, and you don't. Sorry, one of the prime considerations of STGODs is that when you make a really stupid mistake, you pay for it.

In the mean time, Costa's willing to negotiate an end to hostilities. Their demands are: Baernish forces remove themselves into the buffer zone.

214s are the cheaper export model of the superlative German Type 212. They're still far from being nigh-toothless Kilos. I suggest you take the hit to your navy and army and consider it the butcher's bill before Beo gets impatient (or bored) and does something worse.

Also, the greek subs were mostly made in greece, save for the first, which was split between the germans and greeks. It's likely the greeks' fault they have hull problems.

Master_Baerne wrote:And I'm fairly frustrated that you've gone and done the same thing you accused me of doing with regards to the air bases I bombed. If you can do catastrophic damage against targets with, again, modern AA emplacements and vastly superior planes ready to scramble at the first sign of trouble, I can do catastrophic damage to comparatively-undefended bases. Or at least turn away when my pilots spot the hundreds of planes arrayed against them.

Vastly superior? Um... F-106Hs are pretty close to the top of the line of what Shepistan had before it's fall. Oh, and they had a pretty good kill ratio against MESS fighters. As for modern AA emplacements: sure, great. Still not going to reach up and touch someone out of MANPADs range. Light ADA won't cut it, and your OOB doesn't have anything that goes mobile with your divisions that's heavier.

Firstly, Shepistan used F-106s not because they're particularly effective, but rather because they were cheap enough to afford vast numbers of the things. They're 30 years old; what kills they achieved against MESS aircraft were due to saturation by the aforementioned swarms of them.

I'm afraid I must concede that my OOB lacks effective ADA. This oversight has now been corrected, as it would have been earlier had I known anything at all about ADA. This is the only problem with the point buy method - It doesn't precisely encourage one to actually find out what one's buying, and I did not check and see what holes might be left in my army's structure.

Even so, I would prefer if someone not directly involved in the conflict came up with the casualty lists.

Czech: Where were these subs built? If they're even partially-Costa products, I would expect them to be less sound then the Greek boats, not more.

Unfortunately, we've never settled formally on a mod council, letting the matter drop whenever brought up, so now we'd have to decide on someone.

That said, when the nerve gas was used, was it only used on frontline forces or in the attacks on Fortress Baerne, which I presuppose is the capital of the Duchy?

Only for frontline attacks, I believe. And yes, Fortress Baerne is the capitol.

Steve wrote:Unfortunately, we've never settled formally on a mod council, letting the matter drop whenever brought up, so now we'd have to decide on someone.

This game has been 200% more enjoyable without a damned moderator throwing his weight around. Don't bring that crap down on us.

@ Baerne; they're probably Vinish, or possibly made in Tian Jiao before the Uranium War. Tian Jiao is the source of the Type 212, so logically they make the Type 214 as well.

EDIT: I could do your casualty lists. I'm not as brutal as Beo, but don't expect soft treatment.

Okay, I call massive bullshit on the sub attacks, moreso, I find it amusingly ironic that Beo's doing the exact same damn thing Shep did back in September (IRL) by blithely assuming the Baernish forces would be stupid and failing even rudimentary attempts at dealing with potential sub attack.

Not quite the impartial judge I was looking for, Czech. Thanks for the offer, though.

Czechmate wrote:

Steve wrote:Unfortunately, we've never settled formally on a mod council, letting the matter drop whenever brought up, so now we'd have to decide on someone.

This game has been 200% more enjoyable without a damned moderator throwing his weight around. Don't bring that crap down on us.

@ Baerne; they're probably Vinish, or possibly made in Tian Jiao before the Uranium War. Tian Jiao is the source of the Type 212, so logically they make the Type 214 as well.

EDIT: I could do your casualty lists. I'm not as brutal as Beo, but don't expect soft treatment.

If anyone's doing the casualty list it'll probably be Phong or Stas. Certainly not you.

Master_Baerne wrote:Firstly, Shepistan used F-106s not because they're particularly effective, but rather because they were cheap enough to afford vast numbers of the things. They're 30 years old; what kills they achieved against MESS aircraft were due to saturation by the aforementioned swarms of them.

I'm afraid I must concede that my OOB lacks effective ADA. This oversight has now been corrected, as it would have been earlier had I known anything at all about ADA. This is the only problem with the point buy method - It doesn't precisely encourage one to actually find out what one's buying, and I did not check and see what holes might be left in my army's structure

Yes, they were cheap, but they also were reasonably effective due to the upgrades he performed on them. It's certainly got a much more powerful radar than your MiG-31s have, as well as greater number of kills stowed, and appoximately equal performance in speed. As for ADA, well, even if you did have effective types, the FACCM would have conducted SEAD strikes against them while the rest of the strike force continued to destroy your army.

Master_Baerne wrote:Czech: Where were these subs built? If they're even partially-Costa products, I would expect them to be less sound then the Greek boats, not more.

Of course they're not partially Costa. They're Tonkinese. Because Tonkin sells everything. Even to both sides in the middle of a war.

Czechmate wrote:@ Baerne; they're probably Vinish, or possibly made in Tian Jiao before the Uranium War. Tian Jiao is the source of the Type 212, so logically they make the Type 214 as well.

Unlikely, Gizmonic Sea never really had much experience in submarines, hence the buying of a handful off of Shroom to tool around for the Black Barracuda Project and using a Shroomanian nuclear sub instead of a homegrown one. And I mostly use US and French ships anyway.

EDIT: I snipped out some extremely cathartic but ultimately unnecessarily harsh words meant for Steve. If you saw them, woop de fucking doo. I don't deny them, but they are snipped nonetheless.

As for the subs, I think the carrier should take a hit, but the cruisers should be able to evade and the carrier should be repairable. The 214 is a good sub, but it -was- Costan-crewed, so i doubt it was accurate.

Czech, my good man, cool down. Insulting fiction generally regarded as excellent will not win you points.

Whether or not Steve's...work is "excellent" or not is not up for debate. Your unwillingness to accept losses to finish taking over a country for your CATO masters is, however, the topic of tonight's discussion.

Steve wrote:Okay, I call massive bullshit on the sub attacks, moreso, I find it amusingly ironic that Beo's doing the exact same damn thing Shep did back in September (IRL) by blithely assuming the Baernish forces would be stupid and failing even rudimentary attempts at dealing with potential sub attack.

The basic job description of a SSK is to act as a mobile minefield. Advanced SSKs are about as quiet as it's possible for any sub to currently be. I'm not assuming Baernish sailors are stupid. Just not good enough. ASW is hard. And I suspect that far too much of the Baernish naval budget went towards that carrier.

There's 5 other SSKs in Costa's OOB. Who knows, maybe Baerne can make mincemeat out of those.

Anyway, I don't presume that the Costa sub that launched the attack will make it. If Baerne wants to though, we can have an awesome cat and mouse game hunting for it.

"Diplomatic "debacle"? Vacuum bomb Costa NOW.

Also, Beowulf - what sort of bullshit is that? How could Su-3X score kills against BDAF MiG-31s? They're like not really suited to fight interceptors that fast and going in at full speed with ECM. Not to mention the F-106s. "Scored well against MESS fighters"? You're sure they weren't just cheap meat guided by large, hardened Shepistani ground radars, right? Costa has large ground hardened radars to guide their obsolete shit?

Beowulf's ridiculous idea that he could sink a CVBG with an SSK is also totally out of the question. What did, these SSKs carry nuclear ordnance on large missiles? No? And the carrier was operating without CAP, and Baerne's small craft didn't totally patrol the harbor zone with towed arrays, right?

Beowulf wrote:Unfortunately, there wasn't much you could do to avoid a heavyweight torpedo.

Unfortunately, that's bullshit. Baerne's Kirovs could launch counter-torpedo barrages with it's ASUW hedgehog-type systems.

Czechmate wrote:the cruisers should be able to evade

They could destroy at least one of the attacking torpedoes aimed for them with a countertorpedo salvo, and evade the second.