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Nematocyst wrote:So he wants us to fight the garrison and break Onniel and Maion free?
What makes Michael think we won't simply blast the place to the ground? What makes him think we want prisoners?

And how is he going to show us the way in, if not by the Heavenly Host?

Or Michael could be talking about some of the humans he already has working for him. This could be when he reveals some of his scheming to Lemuel.

First of all: Nice installment, as is almost always the case. I like how Michael is playing things.

Second, I tend to agree with the point on "our" universe being subject to variations on the timing of the heat death that the bubbles wouldn't. The other problem is that the timescales would seem to be rather long for us and not as long for the bubbles. It might take the bubbles a hundred billion years to cave in on themselves, but you're probably looking at at least twice that on our side because of random star generation, crashing galaxies, etc. firing up star generation.

Third, would I be right in guessing that the "universe three" folks behind the portals are actually another dimension "up" looking in rather than a universe over (in keeping with Stuart's comments)?

A couple of things that I didn't like about this chapter.

I'd love to have my Iphone work up here. All those apps.

Seriously? Are you trying for over the top? Because it doesn't really fit into the story right now.

"This was on your steps Lemuel. Perhaps you had better see what it is." Because I already know.

This sound like you believe your readers to be dumb. We already got that Michael-Lan kidnapped Maion, his inner monologue doesn't need to keep reminding us.

But as always, still a big fan.

Spekio, I think the reminders there were more to show Michael's guilt at the betrayal of his friend.

Also, in light of what we now know, could the Myanmar conflict have been Michael's way of letting the HEA try out portal warfare? Certainly having experience in using them to attack would lead to less need for weapons of mass destruction, along with a far smaller amount of collateral damage.

Spekio wrote:A couple of things that I didn't like about this chapter.

I'd love to have my Iphone work up here. All those apps.

Seriously? Are you trying for over the top? Because it doesn't really fit into the story right now.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if the iPhone would even exist in this timeline. It was released before the Message, but I don't see why Michael would even get one since he spends all his time in the wrong universe. And the apps didn't start coming out until right around the time of the Message, unless I'm badly mistaken.

It would make some sense for Michael to think "I'd love to get cell phone service up here," because that's plausible; cell phones as a type were around for years before the iPhone. But the iPhone specifically is a bit over the top.

PaperJack wrote:Will we find the Norse Gods in another cosmobubble ?
I hope they are much better bros than Yahweh and Satan.

That would be... interesting. CaptainChewbacca's already posted his own idea of how that might go, though no way do I imagine GEN Petraeus attending in person.

Spekio wrote:A couple of things that I didn't like about this chapter.

I'd love to have my Iphone work up here. All those apps.

Seriously? Are you trying for over the top? Because it doesn't really fit into the story right now.

I think it's a funny way of illustrating again, the central point; that the height of Bronze Age opulence can't compete with what the modern world has available.

More, that it can't compete even with what is affordable for commoners.

We've already come so far.. chances are no other civilization in this Hubble volume will ever reach this level again, short of us pulling them up. We'd better finish the job, then.

It also shows Michael's disdain for angelic society and how much contact with humans has changed him. Also, I definitely see there being a lot fewer apps on the iphone, but that a lot of the archetypes have at least one representative from people making them as a hobby and deciding to sell them. Plus, it's not like a bunch hadn't already sold, even if the sales aren't likely to have been nearly as high. And now I'm wondering what would happen to the smartphone market when all of apple's competitors have a lot more time to come up with their products while sales are low (or decide to scrap them altogether).

So a couple questions.

1. So the human levvies can't go to Earth, right?

2. How many of them are there?

Just a couple of questions. If they can go to Earth, the HEA could end up being Zerg-rushed by 60 million humans whille the Angels launch the real attack from above, since I can see the Angels sheer numbers and sonic attack giving them quite a bit of air superiority. Also, any human levvies would prevent the HEA from using chemical weapons, as they are still human, even if they're fighting for Yahweh.

One thing to remember is that the electronics industry is going to be pushed as much as possible into making electronics for the military. All those R&D people who specialize in designing microchips? I'd expect them to get sucked into the defense industry, likewise.

Think about what happened to auto manufacturing in WWII: it stopped dead, because there was so much demand for military vehicles. Something similar will probably happen here.

Speaking of the three HEF Armies, to where did the Republic of China (or Taiwan) Army get shuttled off to?

Leber wrote:1. So the human levvies can't go to Earth, right?

2. How many of them are there?

1. They can, but not for long. In the first book, the Amazing Randi tried to return a recently killed friend to Earth. He started to 'die', as if his life force had no sustenance. The same thing will most likely happen here. The levvies won't have a real effect.

2. Good question. I think the overall number (of levvies and dead humans in Heaven) won't be very high: Heaven has been closed for 1000 years and the entrance requirements were very high before that.
Which takes me to the 'humans caught in the crossfire' issue Chewbacca proposes: whatever human casualties will happen will be nothing compared to the losses we'll take if we let Michael and any of his circle alive. He's too dangerous for us to let him live.

Why will leaving Michael alive going to lead to more casualties? Letting him take over the administration of a deposed and human-run heaven which is home to an occupying army isn't a horrible outcome. It ends the war, gets heaven out of the 'hitting us with storms' business, and opens up heaven to colonization.

It has to be better than airstrikes and a prolonged siege.

Nematocyst wrote:2. Good question. I think the overall number (of levvies and dead humans in Heaven) won't be very high: Heaven has been closed for 1000 years and the entrance requirements were very high before that.

I seem to remember hearing figures as high as 10% of the population being let into Heaven back in ancient times. They were selecting for the sort of people who made good obedient peasants, and it's not like those were hard to find for most of history. So we could be looking at a LOT of second-lifers in Heaven. Not as many as in Hell, of course, but offsetting that is the fact that all those second-lifers are uninjured and free to move about. Guys stuck in a river of burning pitch are militarily irrelevant for the time being, and we can fish them out at our leisure. Confused peasants wandering around because we just killed the angel running the plantation... not so much.

Which takes me to the 'humans caught in the crossfire' issue Chewbacca proposes: whatever human casualties will happen will be nothing compared to the losses we'll take if we let Michael and any of his circle alive. He's too dangerous for us to let him live.

I agree with Chewie here: why?

Spekio wrote:

I'd love to have my Iphone work up here. All those apps.

Seriously? Are you trying for over the top? Because it doesn't really fit into the story right now.

Maybe Stuart tried to illustrate to what degrees human technology works in Heaven? he said it doesn't work, not he's got no power to recharge it, so there are effect preventing it to work.

Leber wrote:2. How many of them are there?

I think it was something like 1/10 of the human population of Hell was in Heaven, so it's approx. 10 billion humans (10^9).

Leber wrote:Just a couple of questions. If they can go to Earth, the HEA could end up being Zerg-rushed by 60 million humans whille the Angels launch the real attack from above, since I can see the Angels sheer numbers and sonic attack giving them quite a bit of air superiority. Also, any human levvies would prevent the HEA from using chemical weapons, as they are still human, even if they're fighting for Yahweh.

I don't think they'd be much use at all, they won't have any of the things that made the harpies dangerous to tanks (well, I seriously doubt they'd have fire weapons of any sort). The entire point seems to be to get them killed off for no discernable purpose, thereby making people more likely to not want to use indiscriminate force on Heaven.

Which takes me to the 'humans caught in the crossfire' issue Chewbacca proposes: whatever human casualties will happen will be nothing compared to the losses we'll take if we let Michael and any of his circle alive. He's too dangerous for us to let him live.

He's smart enough to know what he can't get away with, and considering how nice the angels are going to have to be to preserve themselves, that basically means he can't get away with much of anything for a long time, and he doesn't really show any signs of being a butcher, especially when he has to rehabilitate angels' reputation. Sure he's a power-hungry bastard, but he'll have all the power he can reasonably get for a long time, after plenty of opportunities to deal with him in a way that won't get a ton of humans killed.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Why will leaving Michael alive going to lead to more casualties? Letting him take over the administration of a deposed and human-run heaven which is home to an occupying army isn't a horrible outcome. It ends the war, gets heaven out of the 'hitting us with storms' business, and opens up heaven to colonization.

Simon_Jester wrote:I agree with Chewie here: why?

xthetenth wrote: He's smart enough to know what he can't get away with, and considering how nice the angels are going to have to be to preserve themselves, that basically means he can't get away with much of anything for a long time, and he doesn't really show any signs of being a butcher, especially when he has to rehabilitate angels' reputation. Sure he's a power-hungry bastard, but he'll have all the power he can reasonably get for a long time, after plenty of opportunities to deal with him in a way that won't get a ton of humans killed.

He will eventually turn whatever we leave there with him on us.
He doesn't like us and he's smart, and he will pretend to be our puppet in Heaven. He then can get scissors, cut his strings and stab the puppeteer in the neck.

His pretense of working to save the Angel race s nothing but that: a pretense. He wants power and he'll manipulate us to get it, then strike us with that power.

It would take Michael a thousand years or more to get that kind of power, and I don't think we'll let him. Meanwhile, we're going to be getting heaven more and more integrated into the new multidimensional economy.

Michael might become like a heavenly Lex Luthor mover-and-shaker, who once famously said 'President? Do you realize how much power I'd have to give up to do that?!'

He doesn't want or need to be king, he'll settle for CEO.

Nematocyst wrote:He will eventually turn whatever we leave there with him on us.
He doesn't like us and he's smart, and he will pretend to be our puppet in Heaven. He then can get scissors, cut his strings and stab the puppeteer in the neck.

His pretense of working to save the Angel race s nothing but that: a pretense. He wants power and he'll manipulate us to get it, then strike us with that power.

Let me put a question to you this way: how is he different from Abigor, going by what humanity in-story knows about him? Abigor is not a coward or a fool. Anyone with a brain knows that he's got long-range plans to make the demons independent of humanity, to give them enough power to stand on their own feet.

Anyone with a brain knows equally well that "long range" means "not going to happen in the foreseeable future," because we control his access to real power and we're not going to let him have much of it. But to be perfectly honest, over the millenia-long long term, we can't reasonably expect to keep him totally powerless and in our control. So what? By the time Abigor's Hell becomes a significant power, it will be outweighed by Second Life human states in Hell quite handily.

Why is the situation with Michael in Heaven any different? Because we, the reader, happen to know that Michael is more knowledgeable and ambitious than Abigor? Is that all there is?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:It would take Michael a thousand years or more to get that kind of power, and I don't think we'll let him.

Better kill him now than sleep with an eye open for 1000 years...

Simon_Jester wrote:Let me put a question to you this way: how is he different from Abigor, going by what humanity in-story knows about him? Abigor is not a coward or a fool. Anyone with a brain knows that he's got long-range plans to make the demons independent of humanity, to give them enough power to stand on their own feet.

Anyone with a brain knows equally well that "long range" means "not going to happen in the foreseeable future," because we control his access to real power and we're not going to let him have much of it. But to be perfectly honest, over the millenia-long long term, we can't reasonably expect to keep him totally powerless and in our control. So what? By the time Abigor's Hell becomes a significant power, it will be outweighed by Second Life human states in Hell quite handily.

Why is the situation with Michael in Heaven any different? Because we, the reader, happen to know that Michael is more knowledgeable and ambitious than Abigor? Is that all there is?

Abigor thinks of us as powerful allies. Michael thinks of us as powerful tools to be used by him, and he will continue to do so when we are over with Heaven.

Abigor allowed us to have a say in his Hell. Michael will most likely manipulate us into doing what he wants in his Heaven.

Abigor allowed Second Lifer states independent of his Hell. Michael will most likely do something to be in control of the states in his Heaven.

That's how I see Michael, at least: a powerful and smart general with really good manipulation skills that should be killed, like we did with part of Hell's hierarchy. But I admit I am running out of arguments to justify my blood thirst (if I ever had a good one, that is)

Nematocyst wrote:Abigor thinks of us as powerful allies. Michael thinks of us as powerful tools to be used by him, and he will continue to do so when we are over with Heaven.

Abigor allowed us to have a say in his Hell. Michael will most likely manipulate us into doing what he wants in his Heaven.

Abigor allowed Second Lifer states independent of his Hell. Michael will most likely do something to be in control of the states in his Heaven.

That's how I see Michael, at least: a powerful and smart general with really good manipulation skills that should be killed, like we did with part of Hell's hierarchy. But I admit I am running out of arguments to justify my blood thirst (if I ever had a good one, that is)

I'd say Michael sees us as a bunch of very angry and very deadly individuals who get to decide whether angelkind lives or stops existing in a recognizable form, and that if he wants to live to keep his power and his race alive he'd better do his best to integrate angels into human society even if we are useful for his immediate purposes. Sure he sees us as tools in his scheme, but he knows that he's playing with nuclear hellfire and that alone makes him in many ways the best angel to be humanity's puppet for at least the immediate future seeing as he knows enough of humans to know how angry we are and what we want, how screwed he and angelkind are if he doesn't do it, and is smart enough to make it happen. The list of angels who fill those criteria seems depressingly short, so I'd say Michael would likely be the best leader for them in the immediate future, and if he hands us heaven after the first battle, I'd be inclined to let him have it.. and watch him like a hawk, of course. I don't like that he's the best candidate we've seen so far, but as far as I can tell he is.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Spekio wrote:A couple of things that I didn't like about this chapter.

I'd love to have my Iphone work up here. All those apps.

Seriously? Are you trying for over the top? Because it doesn't really fit into the story right now.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if the iPhone would even exist in this timeline. It was released before the Message, but I don't see why Michael would even get one since he spends all his time in the wrong universe. And the apps didn't start coming out until right around the time of the Message, unless I'm badly mistaken.

It would make some sense for Michael to think "I'd love to get cell phone service up here," because that's plausible; cell phones as a type were around for years before the iPhone. But the iPhone specifically is a bit over the top.

Fair enough Simon. It would still adequately illustrate, to quote from Stuart's previous post:

"He's tried to find a way to save as much as he can from the inevitable chancges that are coming. In doing so, he's becoming more and more human himself." (my bold, Stuart's typo)

I think that using iPhone apps was just to make the reference a little more contemporaneous. Cell/mobile phones have been around for a while after all. I remember the first briefcase sized arrangements!

Simon_Jester wrote:One thing to remember is that the electronics industry is going to be pushed as much as possible into making electronics for the military. All those R&D people who specialize in designing microchips? I'd expect them to get sucked into the defense industry, likewise.

Think about what happened to auto manufacturing in WWII: it stopped dead, because there was so much demand for military vehicles. Something similar will probably happen here.

Domestic auto manufacturing in the US effectively stopped on 10 February 1942, according to Overy. Just 139 cars were produced thereafter for the duration.

Although conversion from consumer vehicles to military goods was not easy, the nature of auto making in the US (mass production, adaptabilty through frequent model updates and changes etc) was such that once those industries picked up steam they produced in copious quantities. The Ford Motor Company for instance ended up producing more than the entire Italian military/industrial complex.

The US electronic industry then went the same way and would do so now. So no iPad for instance unless the military wanted it.

Nematocyst wrote:Abigor thinks of us as powerful allies. Michael thinks of us as powerful tools to be used by him, and he will continue to do so when we are over with Heaven.

Abigor allowed us to have a say in his Hell. Michael will most likely manipulate us into doing what he wants in his Heaven.

Abigor allowed Second Lifer states independent of his Hell. Michael will most likely do something to be in control of the states in his Heaven.

That's the point, though. If we're putting him in a position comparable to Abigor's, he can't. If we're watching him, and he knows it, and he knows we can, say, portal into his bedroom and lob a few AT-4s at him before he even realizes what's going on... that's going to put a dent in his ambitions. He'll still want to have power for himself, but that doesn't mean he'll get it.

xthetenth wrote:I'd say Michael sees us as a bunch of very angry and very deadly individuals who get to decide whether angelkind lives or stops existing in a recognizable form, and that if he wants to live to keep his power and his race alive he'd better do his best to integrate angels into human society even if we are useful for his immediate purposes. Sure he sees us as tools in his scheme, but he knows that he's playing with nuclear hellfire and that alone makes him in many ways the best angel to be humanity's puppet for at least the immediate future seeing as he knows enough of humans to know how angry we are and what we want, how screwed he and angelkind are if he doesn't do it, and is smart enough to make it happen. The list of angels who fill those criteria seems depressingly short, so I'd say Michael would likely be the best leader for them in the immediate future, and if he hands us heaven after the first battle, I'd be inclined to let him have it.. and watch him like a hawk, of course. I don't like that he's the best candidate we've seen so far, but as far as I can tell he is.

Why not put Nanael a 2nd Lifer in charge, though? One that's already in Heaven (Heavenite?)
Honestly, I'd rather have Julius Caesar, as much as I dread him, in charge than having Michael.