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As far as I've seen, no Kyle, so I guess it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

This evening should work for me (in PST, don't know about you guys).

I'm kind fo busy with RL right now, but I'll try to make any upcoming AIM meeting if soemone can setup a time. I can't really say when a good time would be since I'm not sure how my schedule is looking right now, everythings kind of up in the air right now for me. Though probably sometime after 11pm EST would be best.

That sounds perfect to me. 11pm EST tonight?

Thirdfain wrote:That sounds perfect to me. 11pm EST tonight?

Sounds good.

Sorry people. Somethings came up, I won't be around for the AIM thing. sorry.

OK, let's find a different time. We need to sit down and work this out. What works for you?

To be honest I don't see a need for the AIM chat, especially with t e odd schedule I've got right now.. I think we can handle it in this thread. First I want to go over the facts.

*The PLC has complete governmental control of the Gorn Federation and stopped the Fenari invasion, and controls the only naval force in Gorn Space.

*The GLC is a government in exile that encouraged a foreign invasion of the Federation, which failed.

*Istvan holds one Theater Defense Center on one planet. He's surrounded, completely cut off from any support, and outnumbered over twenty to one.

*The GLC has foreign public opinion on its side.

So I think I've been exceedingly fair with the PLCs offers to the GLC for a compromise. The PLC holds all real power in this situation and all the GLC has is foreign public opinion on its side. The GLC is crazy if they think the PLC went through all this just to give power back to the GLC.

Kyle wrote:To be honest I don't see a need for the AIM chat, especially with t e odd schedule I've got right now.. I think we can handle it in this thread. First I want to go over the facts.

*The PLC has complete governmental control of the Gorn Federation and stopped the Fenari invasion, and controls the only naval force in Gorn Space.

*The GLC is a government in exile that encouraged a foreign invasion of the Federation, which failed.

*Istvan holds one Theater Defense Center on one planet. He's surrounded, completely cut off from any support, and outnumbered over twenty to one.

*The GLC has foreign public opinion on its side.

So I think I've been exceedingly fair with the PLCs offers to the GLC for a compromise. The PLC holds all real power in this situation and all the GLC has is foreign public opinion on its side. The GLC is crazy if they think the PLC went through all this just to give power back to the GLC.

Except for one big problem you've overlooked. Popular support is not looking favorably on the PLC. At all. Add to this the fact that your playstyle for the sequestration of the majority of the Gorn military was launched with absolutely zero build-up, and I see your position as being far weaker than you expect. If you'd spent a little while building it up, then other players would have had a chance to see the changes in the Gorn political climate and react. That never happened. Ergo, the Gorn situation is pretty simple- it's a top-down revolt by a small cadre of highly-placed officers, politicians, and rebels. Anything larger and more popular would have, if not been detected, at least would have sent up some red flags and given local intelligence services time to commence investigations.

The Gorn PLC is a group of military leaders and politicians whos only power comes from their Quadruple Entente support and the fact that they've managed to place "their people" in the increasingly restless militaary. Meanwhile, Isstvan's solid defense and subsequent survival, despite the best efforts of the regionally detested UTR imperialists, has garnered him the support of the vast majority of the populace.

If you want a popular revolt, Kyle, I suggest you work for it next time. This Gorn rebellion was literally out of the blue, and I'd like it to be treated as such by the game's mods.

This being the case, I'm placing this before the mods for resolution. Is Kyle's scenario of an overwhlemingly popular and successful PLC true, or is the PLC a top-down coup with a handful of powerful men seizing political and military power without ever gaining popular support, and meanwhile failing to destroy their arch-rival despite the assistance of the powerful QE, which is seen in the region as a nasty imperial power (see Klingon Invasion.)

Thirdfain wrote: This being the case, I'm placing this before the mods for resolution. Is Kyle's scenario of an overwhlemingly popular and successful PLC true, or is the PLC a top-down coup with a handful of powerful men seizing political and military power without ever gaining popular support, and meanwhile failing to destroy their arch-rival despite the assistance of the powerful QE, which is seen in the region as a nasty imperial power (see Klingon Invasion.)

As one of the two mods for the game, I am going to chime in with my stance on the matter. Due to the reasons already touched upon by Thirdfain, I am far more inclined to take the stance that this is a top-down coup without popular support. In my opinion while most players are allowed a certain degree of sneakiness and covert actions an STGOD hinges on a sense of fair play. In order for Kyle's scenario to feel "true" he would have needed to establish a foundation for it. That foundation is not present.

Oh, I talked with Pablo and I apologize for it having taken so long but the hypermissile/interdictor question has been answered to both our satisfaction. Interdictors will have a detrimental targetting effect to hypermissiles in a reasonable area of effect around the said systems. However, they will not stop hypermissiles from transiting through space. Since hyper shields, there is no need for interdictors to be that effective.

Marcao wrote:Due to the reasons already touched upon by Thirdfain, I am far more inclined to take the stance that this is a top-down coup without popular support.

The fact that its an abrupt top-down coup certainly doesn't rule out powerful after-the-fact popular support. Considering the language and goals of the PLC ("the vote and freedom for the common Gorn") versus the GLC ("the common Gorn are stupid, no votes for them"), I wouldn't be surprised if the mass of Gorn supported the PLC. The best example of this effect comes with the Bolshevik overthrow of the Kerensky government, which was initiated without provocation by Communist cadres but rapidly drew commanding popular support.

At the same time, this question of popular support is more or less a red herring anyway. Regardless of who commands popular support, Gorn is under the near total military control of the PLC, which is a rather more significant factor. As these negotiations are going on, PLC forces are undoubtedly retrenching in preparation for the continuation of this war--if the GLC tries to extract too many concessions at the table they'll find them rather illusory. As a government in exile with absolutely no tangible power base they would be playing rather conservatively.

Also, though I may be biased, I object to Thirdfain's supposition that everybody would think of the QE in precisely the same terms as player nations--especially his--seem to. The fact that the SKS and UTR represent the last vestiges of pre-Burn civilization probably ought to count for something.

EDIT--
If the demands of the Loyalists don't change let me outline a few options on the possible outcomes:
1) Diplomatic stalemate. The great powers choose not to withdraw their forces from the region, and the resulting agreement between them divides Gorn space into Loyalist and PLC zones. The PLC zone constitutes at least 90% of Gorn territory.
2) Diplomatic stalemate. The great powers agree to withdraw their forces from the region, and the PLC immediately eradicates the Loyalists and sets up the new government as it pleases.
3) Diplomatic stalemate. Great Power war ensues. (Unlikely)

With this in mind, and reminding Thirdfain of the fact that the Loyalists would not be playing their cards in the manner which is of the most benefit to the TSC as opposed to themselves, I think they should compromise.

Couple of questions for folks!

First one. How can I go about asking on the ERTC, and what are the requirements to join?

Second. What do I find if I send a probe into Biel-tan? It's darn close to me on the map. If the map was updated.

Thankee.

To join the ERTC, as I recall, you must make a formal request to join and enough of them have to vote yes, check the OOB page 2.

I happen to think that much of the Gorn population is likely to dislike the PLC. They upset things, turned Gorn itself into a warzone... who wants that? No one really.

Things to think about:

State of the Gorn Economy - Were things going well? Was Gorn a fairly wealthy regional nation, being a major stop along one of the largest hyperlanes in the galaxy? Or was Gorn under some sort of crushing economic depression where the people were crying out for the government to fix the state of affairs, and the government was doing nothing.

Quality of Life - Are there large portions of the Gorn population stuck living on welfare? Or do plenty of people have jobs, and life is generally okay on the major worlds?

Gorn Culture - Does the idealism of the Gorn aristocracy reflect what the Gorn people think? Or at least does a good portion of the population feel this way (namely the middle/merchant class) ?

I happen to think that, all things considered, the Gorn people are more likely to reject the PLC, given the option. Unless it's been going through utterly crushing social/economic problems, chances are people would perfer things to remain the same. If you have a good job, a family, and an okay life, chances are you'd rather your country not plunge itself into civil war.

Pablo, that's just my point. The PLC's control of the military is a total creation of Kyle's. There was no effort or planning or plotting put into it's supremacy, it merely sprang into existence fully-formed on Kyle's side. I don't like this, and I'm asking the mods to minimize the impact of this unexpected developement.

Thirdfain wrote:Pablo, that's just my point.

It was very clever of you to make this point by never saying anything about it until just now, and to in fact focus your last post entirely on the subject of the popular support without at all questioning the PLC's control of the military anywhere in the message.

The PLC's control of the military is a total creation of Kyle's. There was no effort or planning or plotting put into it's supremacy, it merely sprang into existence fully-formed on Kyle's side. I don't like this, and I'm asking the mods to minimize the impact of this unexpected developement.

You may have noticed over time that STGODs are based on making shit up--and especially on "unexpected developments." It's impossible for everyone to cover all of the angles all of the time, so we roll with it. What do you want done about this problem--Kyle made shit up so we need to change everything around to the opposite of what it is? Hell, since the entire revolt was his idea, maybe we should just go back and erase the whole thing entirely.

And we never actually gameplayed the TSC's takeover of Corneria, and in fact it doesn't make any sense given the course that that particular war was taking. Why don't we just go back and get rid of all the things that we don't like and can come up with any reason to eliminate?

Why not? Because that's asinine.

What I'm thinking is that you've just realized that the Loyalists are in an untenable position and you're trying to weasel them out of it for your own miniscule advantage. The time to address these concerns was a month ago, when it was actually happening. Suddenly when it's pointed out to you that the Loyalists haven't a leg to stand on, you come up with a reason why this needs to be changed by mod action. When I address that reason, you bring up another. I'm not playing this game, especially considering the fact that this is of such minor importance that I can scarcely believe it's still being argued.

"Oh no, the UTR is going to pick up a one-horse satillite nation that will do them more harm than good. I must whistle up the mods to stop them!"

So what if the Gorn sit astride the trade lane that connects the TSC to it's trading partners? UTR control of that little stretch of desolate highway is hardly going to be a sea-change for the region, considering that the same tradelane also happens to run through the territory of the UTR and Kzin anyway.

We don't need a repeat of Rogue 9 from last game.

That seems a little harsh... the subject of popular support was really never determined. What's the harm in looking at the situation and deciding who the Gorn people are likely to support?

Speaking of Gorn, I did a search on the archive board, and didn't really find much info on them, unlike the Fenari. Have the Gorn always been an anonymous NPC nation with no OOB information?

InnocentBystander wrote:That seems a little harsh... the subject of popular support was really never determined. What's the harm in looking at the situation and deciding who the Gorn people are likely to support?

Okay, let's examine the facts.
1) Under the previous government, the Gorn Hegemony was marganalized politically and economically by its neighbors. It had no trade contacts and no effective foreign policy.
2) Judging by their performance in the wake of the Klingon incidents, the Loyalist government was fairly ineffectual in the diplomatic and military arenas.
3) The PLC is pushing for democratic reforms to give the people a voice in government. The Loyalists are denying this effort on the grounds that the Gorn people are too stupid to rule themselves.

We have no indication of any reason why any person on Gorn who was not a member of the oligarchy would support the Loyalists.

Speaking of Gorn, I did a search on the archive board, and didn't really find much info on them, unlike the Fenari. Have the Gorn always been an anonymous NPC nation with no OOB information?

Yes, that's been the way since forever.

Cabwi will no longer be joining us because he made the mistake of turning a thread about the Pledge Of Allegiance's 'Under God' addition into 'Mike, you're an evil, intolerant Atheist for daring to say bad things about Christians'. The logical culmination came forth.

SirNitram wrote:Cabwi will no longer be joining us because he made the mistake of turning a thread about the Pledge Of Allegiance's 'Under God' addition into 'Mike, you're an evil, intolerant Atheist for daring to say bad things about Christians'. The logical culmination came forth.

Ouch. Well, Ciao. *waves*

SirNitram wrote:Cabwi will no longer be joining us because he made the mistake of turning a thread about the Pledge Of Allegiance's 'Under God' addition into 'Mike, you're an evil, intolerant Atheist for daring to say bad things about Christians'. The logical culmination came forth.

Is that a tear on my cheek? Could be.

Well. I guess I can take my ambassador off his planet and cite the insult of diplomatic jamming... to em. Glass the place over?

Sweet I got some of his tech and he never got anyting in return. He he.

Nepthys: Just allow me time to reture to a safe distance. And possibly instigate towing of some interesting stuff.

As long as I get to keep fragments of this creatively named Admiral Tarkin, and his totally-not-an-SSD SSD. ;p

How'll we treat this? Divided by our powers? Eaten by a hyperdimensional agitated space squid with laser beams on it's head?

Sure, I'll tow the station. I'm sure any of his fleet that's still there won't find that suspicious...