SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[Lonestar]

1. Bomarc batteries will require bunker-busters to take out. No prior posts in which anything less were used against them that supposedly resulted in kills will have that specific section valid, though the rest of the posts will be valid, but players such respectfully increase casualties to their raids if they continued through a defended zone.

If he had his bunkers covering his AD sites when the war kicked off with ATACMS and other strikes hammering them, then that means we(The MESS) have a much casualty count on our side. Because he has to open the bunkers and move shit around use them. And a radar antenna isn't a dinky little TV antenna that you can just poke out.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

1. Bomarc batteries will require bunker-busters to take out. No prior posts in which anything less were used against them that supposedly resulted in kills will have that specific section valid, though the rest of the posts will be valid, but players such respectfully increase casualties to their raids if they continued through a defended zone.

If he had his bunkers covering his AD sites when the war kicked off with ATACMS and other strikes hammering them, then that means we(The MESS) have a much casualty count on our side. Because he has to open the bunkers and move shit around use them. And a radar antenna isn't a dinky little TV antenna that you can just poke out.

I know, rather, but he would have engaged at plenty long range and slammed them shut--and I'm trying to find out the details on these weapons systems. As it stands, though, it seems only a couple dozen Bomarc bunkers have been taken out.

[Lonestar]

Do these open vertically? Like silos? If so, what about time-delayed clustermunitions sitting on top of the door?

For that matter, what about time delayed munitions that might end up in front of the door?

Shep is just going to open the doors and pray for the best as he rolls the stuff out?

No bunker door "slams shut", and I've been to the Site R and seen large blast doors close and open during routine maintenance.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Do these open vertically? Like silos? If so, what about time-delayed clustermunitions sitting on top of the door?

For that matter, what about time delayed munitions that might end up in front of the door?

Shep is just going to open the doors and pray for the best as he rolls the stuff out?

No bunker door "slams shut", and I've been to the Site R and seen large blast doors close and open during routine maintenance.

He'll probably send guys out of personnel access side doors and make them clear the submunitions under threat of having their families executed.

[Lonestar]

He'll probably send guys out of personnel access side doors and make them clear the submunitions under threat of having their families executed.

Yeah, I'm sure that generates a quality personnel pool.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, what's the overpressure rating on BOMARC shelters?

No idea. But the doors which open at the top of the shelter are six tons each.

And are you using the IM-99B.

IM-99B was F-99B. I'm currently on F-99F.

F-99A BOMARC: Mach 2.6 cruise at 65,000 ft; 230 nm range with 352 lb warhead.

F-99B BOMARC: Mach 2.7 cruise at 71,000 ft; 420 nm range with 385 lb warhead.

F-99C BOMARC: Mach 2.8 cruise at 77,000 ft;

F-99D: BOMARC: Mach 2.9 cruise at 83,000 ft

F-99E BOMARC: Mach 3.0 Cruise at 85,000 ft

F-99F BOMARC: 2,400 in service with ADC. Long Range Heavy SAM. Designed to destroy enemy combat aircraft and missiles at ranges exceeding 600 nautical miles at a cruise speed of Mach 3.1 at 85,000 feet. When fired against low altitude targets in search mode, it has a range exceeding 300 miles. The F models differ over the earlier E models in that they now carry a small internal on board jammer to decoy enemy missiles. 400 lb warhead enables both fixed and aerial targets to be attacked and destroyed with a high probability of success.

Because if your missiles are doing Mach 4 they're going to be a lot harder to intercept than Mach 2.8 using AAMs

Mach 4 was only reached in steep dives, with the engine(s) self-destructing for the IM-99B models....I'm staying with the more conservative cruise speeds....

[Karmic Knight]

Some Notes:

1. I'm planning on going to Seattle a week before the Neutrality conference, for some PR, a little rational thought, and an opportunity to go see Seattle, the city that created Grunge, in this world. (Unless Steve objects)
2. I am going to try to take a trip to Shinra (Northeast Ohio Pilgrimage), and the Old Continent after the Conference, for some more PR and random waving.
3. Religious Wackiness, I am going to introduce a group based around the Daedric Cults from the Elder Scrolls series, crazy projects will likely ensue. (Azura's Star, a bomb)


Thank you for reading.

[MKSheppard]

You've got 2400 missiles but even with 1 SAGE center per squadron (as the original plan called for) that's 15 targets for us to turn your accuracy into shit.

1960 SAGE Center: Contains two AN/FSQ-7 computers (one is online and one is backup at all times); each FSQ-7 consumes 3MW of power, weighs 250 tons, contains 60,000 vacuum tubes; has 800~ kb of memory, communicates through 1300 baud modems, and has a performance of 75,000 instructions per second; and requires 100+ people to operate.

1988 386DX Compatible PC Consumes about 600W of power, weighs about 50 pounds for everything, has a few MB of memory, communicates through 2,400-3,400 baud modems, and has a performance of 8.5 Million instructions per second, and needs one person to operate.

Let me think this over for a few seconds. It's the 1980s. I'm laying out upgrades for my air defenses; and I decide that I'm going to keep using this:



instead of taking advantages of the increased minaturization of computing technology to renovate the SAGE network towards a more decentalized combat network in lots of smaller bunkers, rather than everything centered in 15 huge giant computer bunkers?

That's so hard. Let me think for a moment.....

[CmdrWilkens]

Notes on the SAGE setup to Skimmer:

Aside from the fact that Mark posted the system setup showing the SAGE integration centers being used to feed the data from his ground based radar sites to the BOMARC squadrons here there is this. Were someone to look at his OOB post, look up BOMARC, and try to figure out a way to defeat it the first thing they would do is target the SAGE centers. Since Mark never bothered to declare that he was using anything other than the bog standard BOMARC system architecture that anyone else could lookup it would be an attempt to retroactively increase the survivability of his system to make it more dispersed than we could discover by simple lookup.

This game is NOT designed to be a matter of who can most accurately sift through the ddepest technical jargon of the last 50 years of cold war and modern fighting equipment and then extrapolate for other players what the current capabilities are. This game is to declare technology, develop a realistic nation, and interact in a giant game of semi-structured diplomacy. It is unreasonable to ask us to extrapolate for Mark when weapons system information is not given to us the same as it is unreasonable to ask Mark to extrapolate for us.

He declared F-99F which we should expect to have incrementally better performance than the known IM-99B and Mark declared what his latest iteration is capable of relative to the known production models for which data is already available.
This is the post:

F-99F BOMARC: 2,400 in service with ADC. Long Range Heavy SAM. Designed to destroy enemy combat aircraft and missiles at ranges exceeding 600 nautical miles at a cruise speed of Mach 3.4 at 83,000 feet. When fired against low altitude targets in search mode, it has a range exceeding 300 miles. The F models differ over the earlier E models in that they now carry a small internal on board jammer to decoy enemy missiles. 384 lb warhead enables both fixed and aerial targets to be attacked and destroyed with a high probability of success.

There is nothing in there indicating the system architecture has changed at all. It is not reasonable for us to grant him a vastly more defensible system architecture without any indication in the Force Dec or subsequent posts.

[MKSheppard]

There is nothing in there indicating the system architecture has changed at all.

Yeah, never mind that the F-99F has a 600 nautical mile range against high altitude targets; the original IM-99A BOMARC first deployed had only a 230 nm range against high altitude targets; later increased to 420 nm with the IM-99B SUPER BOMARC....you are going to have to make architectural changes to the ground systems to accomodate the increased ranges...

Secondly, from 1975 onwards, whatever surviving Nike-Hercules sites that remained in teh United States were upgraded with all new digital computers (PDP-11s) which completely replaced the older analog systems, making them much faster and more combat capable. When our NIKE sites were retired; the computers went overseas to surviving NATO NIKE-HERCULES sites...

That's the beauty of a system which is command guided; everything that's really expensive is on the ground, allowing you to achieve vast improvements in performance by upgrading the equipment incrementally.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Okay, so new computers is reasonable, but you DIDN'T specify MORE DISTRIBUTED command networks, so I'm going to assume that, at the BEST, you have the following, Shep:

1. The SAGE centers themselves, and,
2. The launch sites,

as the distributed network control points for your BOMARC grid, okay? And that is official.

Those are your targets, Wilkens--the control points for the BOMARC are both backup radars and computers at each site so they can still independently engage when the SAGE is knocked out, but at substantially reduced capability, and the SAGE centres themselves. So there's no distributed command group, but we'll generously assume that local control of the missiles is possible and will have a reasonable success rate, if being rather disorganized, once the SAGE centres are knocked out. But they won't be firing blind, either--I think it's quite reasonable that he posted some radar and computer elements at the launch site as a backup to the SAGE centres, but there's no distributed network since he didn't claim one, so that just means that with the SAGE gone the local control will be much better than it could have been, but still local.

[MKSheppard]

But there's no distributed network since he didn't claim one, so that just means that with the SAGE gone the local control will be much better than it could have been, but still local.

I'm sorry, but even if you knock out the SAGE centers, that still doesn't kill the network. When SAGE was done, it used 1,300 baud transmission over hundreds of conventional phone lines to and from the radars and missile sites to coordinate it all.

By the 1980s; we have 3,000 baud modems which can use a variety of tricks to compress the signal, etc to increase throughput even futher to like 9000 baud.

So unless he did knock out Shepistani Telephone and Telegraph (STT); the landlines between the systems are still functional, and more than capable of switching the load....

And considering that a single 1980s desktop PC sitting in a Squadron Command Bunker is more than capabule of handling the load of the old SAGE system....I just can't see a significant degradation in the network from knocking out the SAGE centers.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Fingolfin, I was thinking about buying the K-2 and upgrading my Leo 2A6 and 2A4 inventory with ERA and active interception, possibly electrothermal guns. Shepistan's shenanigans should allow me to up military spending next year, so I'll have around 10 billion bucks to throw around.

I'd also love to adapt some of the Russian barrel-fired ATGMs for use in the smoothbore 120mm gun of the Leo.

There was an Israeli missile that can be fired from the 120mm smoothbore cannon. I could sell you the KSTAM which looks interesting enough (it's not a missile, but a mortar that is fired at range, and drops down via parachute.) I placed on development a 120mm missile which should be out soon; a LAHAT with a heavier tandem warhead and enhanced anti-jamming electronics.

However, air defence should be getting the most funds now. Shep's bomber swarms scare me, frankly: We can defend against Japanistani human waves with relatively cheap equipment, but it would be a lot easier to do so with our industry intact, or at least moderately undamaged.

Same here. Get MIG-31s. I have a MIG-31 line, but I'm diverting resources producing that to making bombers.

[DarthShady]

However, air defence should be getting the most funds now. Shep's bomber swarms scare me, frankly: We can defend against Japanistani human waves with relatively cheap equipment, but it would be a lot easier to do so with our industry intact, or at least moderately undamaged.

Same here. Get MIG-31s. I have a MIG-31 line, but I'm diverting resources producing that to making bombers.

I would be more than happy to produce MiG-31's for PeZook.

After I complete the current orders, of course.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

However, air defence should be getting the most funds now. Shep's bomber swarms scare me, frankly: We can defend against Japanistani human waves with relatively cheap equipment, but it would be a lot easier to do so with our industry intact, or at least moderately undamaged.

Same here. Get MIG-31s. I have a MIG-31 line, but I'm diverting resources producing that to making bombers.

I would be more than happy to produce MiG-31's for PeZook.

After I complete the current orders, of course.

PeZook ought to work on beefing his air defence networks in the meantime, and train on the MIG-31s elsewhere.

I might put down another 96.. going to have lots of fighters by the end of the year...

[TimothyC]

Update:

Remember, Alaska buys a lot of stuff from Shepistan and Japanistan, such as the F-106H, the IM-99F and the IJ-75, so I've got a nice air defense grid for a nation my size.

Alaska would be happy to take in any Christian refugees from Japanistan.

Oh and as a final point, Production has been approved for a Run of 40 B-58K bombers with at least 58 more pods of various types also approved.

[DarthShady]

PeZook ought to work on beefing his air defence networks in the meantime, and train on the MIG-31s elsewhere.

I might put down another 96.. going to have lots of fighters by the end of the year...

I would be willing to train his pilots on my MiG's, if he wants. So they could be ready for when they get theirs delivered.

Yes, lots and lots of fighters and air defences.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Alaska would be happy to take in any Christian refugees from Japanistan.

Huh. Travel that far away? What for?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

If air defense is what's in vogue right now, I could easily slap down some funds for two more S-300 battalions right now and maybe even set aside some cash for an S-400 battalion as well.

Also, even though I'm trying my best to have NATO-compatible combat craft (the twenty-four refitted Su-25s currently in my inventory notwithstanding), what's the unit price for a stock MiG-31, and would it cost extra to refit it so can use both NATO and Warsaw Pact ordinance?

Alaska would be happy to take in any Christian refugees from Japanistan.

Huh. Travel that far away? What for?

Byzantium and Shroomania are much closer options for people seeking asylum from Japanistan, yes.

[K. A. Pital]

Explain to me please how the hell a BOMARC constitutes a solid defense against bomber runs which are supported by modern fighters (not just modern, but very modern), Shep? There are reasons why the thing was retired in the 1970s, and the rest of them used up for target drones.

It's dumb, makes no evasive maneuvers and it's really huge, so if a bomber with standoff missiles can down fighters, it can likewise down BOMARCs.

And I still don't understand what's the big problem of killing running radar sites, especially stationary ones like what Shep has - if they are running, they can be killed. If they are not running, they cannot guide missiles.

So unless he did knock out Shepistani Telephone and Telegraph (STT)

Why the hell wouldn't he? Destroying the enemy's C&C and communication facilities is paramount to success.

P.S. My rather generous estimate yields that the MESS has far more missiles ready to down any surviving BOMARCs than Shep has the BOMARCs themselves, even with his atrocious 2400 BOMARCs claim.

Also, where are Shep's fighters?

[PeZook]

As for the Mig-31, I decided to go with the F-15 ACTIVE for interceptors (buying 100 in 2009, more in 2010).

So now I need missiles (currently I have 124 heavy SAM systems. Need a lot more), and of course...radars, computers, trained operators...

BTW, where do we put the Continental Command Center?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As for the Mig-31, I decided to go with the F-15 ACTIVE for interceptors (buying 100 in 2009, more in 2010).

So now I need missiles (currently I have 124 heavy SAM systems. Need a lot more), and of course...radars, computers, trained operators...

BTW, where do we put the Continental Command Center?

F-15 ACTIVES aren't dedicated interceptors, which is why I operating both F-15E ACTIVE and MIG-31. They can't go MACH 2.5 on full load.

As for the Continental Command Center, I would say break it up into parts connected via optical fiber.

As for SAMs, well, I guess you could start up your own local production with foreign assistance.

[PeZook]

F-15 ACTIVES aren't dedicated interceptors, which is why I operating both F-15E ACTIVE and MIG-31. They can't go MACH 2.5 on full load.

They don't need to. They need a good radar, datalinks and lots and lots and lots of space for missiles

Plus, I'm getting them for 60 million apiece with Shroom's Special Superdiscount

Of course, eventually I'll just use nuclear tipped SAMs instead.

As for the Continental Command Center, I would say break it up into parts connected via optical fiber.

If the fiber is broken (say, by saboteurs), we'd be boned. It's better to have one command center and several backups ready to take over.

As for SAMs, well, I guess you could start up your own local production with foreign assistance.

I'm already producing the Loara SHORADs, but I'd much rather either buy a lot of S-300s and S-400s or licence their production.

What's the cost to deploy an S-300 battery (with missiles)?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

They don't need to. They need a good radar, datalinks and lots and lots and lots of space for missiles

How then do you plan to intercept the supersonic bombers with a fighter can go only at MACH 1.6? Not least you have to beat the bombers before they reach the launch point. And how fast can Shroom build his fighters? Quite frankly, Shroom hasn't so much as mentioned how he plans to complete the hundred or so orders, or when he can complete them.

There is a reason why Shep is using a lot of heavy interceptors that the US doesn't use anymore, or why Beowulf is building F-12s which I would very much like to have. They are fast, and they will intercept the bombers before they can launch their missiles. Mind you, some of the missiles Stas has have very long range, and Shepistan and Japanistan are operating long range supersonic missiles. Once they get into range and launch, you can't do swat. Nevermind that their bombers are going to be unleashing KWs of Electronic jamming which means the effective range of weapons decreases. You also have to fit out special packages for the F-15E to burn through the jamming. The MIG-31 was optimised from the start to burn through jamming, though I have been upgrading their electronics to improve their electronic countermeasure ability to bring them more up to date.

Of course, eventually I'll just use nuclear tipped SAMs instead.

Er? I don't know whether we have time to dole out nuclear weapons for the SAMs.

If the fiber is broken (say, by saboteurs), we'd be boned. It's better to have one command center and several backups ready to take over.

I would be more worried about saboteurs somehow break the codes and start decoding the signals. There is a few good security related reasons why optical fiber is used.

And quite frankly, the command center has to have lots of cables chiefly because there's a fuckton of information to take in and do data fusion to correlate all the data together.

I'm already producing the Loara SHORADs, but I'd much rather either buy a lot of S-300s and S-400s or licence their production.

What's the cost to deploy an S-300 battery (with missiles)?

I think Stas said something like 150 million or something of the like.

[K. A. Pital]

The MiG-31's enormously powerful radar, just ike it's preceding craft, the MiG-25, allows it to engage planes properly on higher distances and break through ECM. The PESA in MiG-31 is what the plane's worth for.

What does the F-15 boast?

Contrary to what one may think, the MiG-31 or 25 are not just sitting duck interceptors - they can be used in airspace control and assault/bombing missions. Combined with the newer generation of Russian missiles like R-77 or KS-172, it can effectively engage and kill opposing interceptors.