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Hm. There's probably a lot of ex military armored vehicles, like M113s, M114s; V150 Commandos, etc which are now being refurbished and returned to service; not for active duty military service, but for Police fast-response units; to give them a chance to deal with possible Baldrick incursions. Also; they will be easier to support there logistically, than in an expeditionary role.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Though I suppose we might hold back all gas weapons for use by specialist units only, if only because of safety concerns for our own men.

Pffft. You and I know that the best weapon to deploy wholesale is MUSTARD.

It's horrifically effective against unprotected personnel; and can contaminate entire areas persistently; and doesn't cause immediate damage; e.g. you march in sandals over a contaminated area; but symptoms don't appear until like a day later, making it hard to pin down where it's contaminated...

MKSheppard wrote:Wait.....why are we accepting a completely different caliber for our new Garands, raising the spectre of one rifle caliber for the "fire brigades", and another caliber for the mass army?

As Stuart has said, the .50 Beowulf is already in production for the USCG, meanwhile, Marina's proposed .458 Win Mag isn't in the DoD system.

Also; .50 Beowulf will be good enough for infantry engagements. If you need to kill a Baldrick at a mile; don't shoot at him with a rifle, have your M113's .50 caliber AAMG deal with him.

The engagement range of the .50 Beowulf will be relatively the same as the current 5.56mm.

This .458 Battle Rifle will be for the massed conscript army that is soon to come, to defend every square foot of American soil.

If Baldricks pop up in the middle of Illinois, and start marching towards Chicago, we don't have the heavy forces with tons of MLRS and MBTs like we have deployed to Iraq to move in and counter them. What we're going to have is the National Guard. Now, yes, they'll have vehicles with machineguns, mortars, and smaller-level support weapons. But they're not going to have a whole lot in the way of tanks or artillery.

The infantry are going to have to do a lot more of the work than Petraeus' army in Iraq did, where it was almost entirely the show of the tankers and artillerists.

Now, as we saw in Hit, Baldricks within the engagement range of 5.56mm NATO, or .50 Beowulf are probably going to be able to close the rest of the distance and begin killing soft, squishy Human soldiers. Sure, they'll do it at a terrible loss rate, but this could be fatal to a light infantry army.

Now think about it where these men don't have assault rifles, but instead have these big-bore Garands. They're engaging Baldricks at the better part of a mile away. Even if these Baldricks get pissed off and try to charge, they've got a LOT of ground to cover. How far can a Baldrick sprint, flat-out? But in any case, that long range, and lot of ground, gives our National Guard riflemen plenty of time to fall back to another set of firing positions, leaving only dead Baldricks and spent brass in their wake.





Also, it occurred to me - what about the deployment of Harpies in the American heartland? This National Guard 'infantry army' is going to be fairly vulnerable to them; damn the relative lack of SPAAG in the American arsenal.

And then imagine that the Harpies fan out into smaller groups and wreak havoc like that?

KlavoHunter wrote:The infantry are going to have to do a lot more of the work than Petraeus' army in Iraq did, where it was almost entirely the show of the tankers and artillerists.

Not a problem. Massed waves of Baldricks attacking?

MKSheppard wrote:Not a problem. Massed waves of Baldricks attacking?

That's a very nice.... water-cooled... machinegun.

Something that no army has in mass issue at this moment.

MKSheppard wrote: Pffft. You and I know that the best weapon to deploy wholesale is MUSTARD.

Dusty mustard, but then that’s when dealing with humans.

Do you really think Baldricks will care about blistered skin? Unless you hit them with enough mustard to drown them via lung damage it’s not going to be effective enough to be worthwhile. Plus the times when we'd most want to use gas are going to be when we can't wait several hours for symptoms to show up. I’m sure the US will be reprinting 1950s field manuals though, which inform troops of how to turn truck batteries into improvised chlorine gas clouds. It wont kill much, but it should throw the Baldricks into confusion, which was the main point anyway.

KlavoHunter wrote:
That's a very nice.... water-cooled... machinegun.

Something that no army has in mass issue at this moment.

Yeah but you can literally just add a water-cooling jacket onto an existing gun, this could even be field improvised. You still have to worry about the receiver overheating, but it will greatly improve sustain rates of fire. The National Guard also does in fact have hoards of artillery, unfortunate a couple years ago the army converted no less then 39 artillery battalions into other things, but the howitzers should all still exist.

Say, anyone know if all the retried M110s got scrapped or not?

KlavoHunter wrote:That's a very nice.... water-cooled... machinegun.

Something that no army has in mass issue at this moment.

There is nothing intrisically special or unique about a watercooling jacket. It's basically a giant cylinder around the barrel, with a hose to a jerry can to allow expansion of the water as it heats up. Once a design is finalized for the M2 and M1919 (Canada kept them as an actual service weapon until very recently, so they'll have a lot of stocks of M1919s) they can be converted to water cooling as fast as we can do it.

MKSheppard wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The initial production order for these rifles is going to be to the tune of 25 million, you realize?

And guess what? The guy in charge of logistics, I.e. Supplying these 25 million rifles with ammo to shoot is going to go and say

"No; I don't care if .458 is superior; I want one caliber for combat rifles; if you want to make some specialist long range rifles, go ahead; but for mass production rifles; I want one round."

Unless of course, we want to end up like the WWII Japanese with multiple incompatible rifle and machine gun calibers...

This rifle is going to be mass produced in much larger numbers than the M-16, duh. The Regular Army needs about 2 million rifles--the conscript Army needs about 25 million. The .50 cal Beowulf is the specialist round.

Anyway, it isn't that it's superiour, Shep, it's that it FITS THE EXISTING RECEIVER LENGTH OF THE GARAND PERFECTLY.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Anyway, it isn't that it's superiour, Shep, it's that it FITS THE EXISTING RECEIVER LENGTH OF THE GARAND PERFECTLY.

And why would the Army bring back the Garand? Wouldn't they concentrate on you know, bringing back the tooling for the M-14? Since it's already in the US DoD stocks, etc? And the M-14 has a shorter receiver....

MKSheppard wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Anyway, it isn't that it's superiour, Shep, it's that it FITS THE EXISTING RECEIVER LENGTH OF THE GARAND PERFECTLY.

And why would the Army bring back the Garand? Wouldn't they concentrate on you know, bringing back the tooling for the M-14? Since it's already in the US DoD stocks, etc? And the M-14 has a shorter receiver....

We sold the toolings to Taiwan. That was also already mentioned in this thread.

If they want to avoid an M1 designation, they can always call it the M14A2, or something similar. The result would bear more resemblance to that version of the Garand rifle than to the M1, especially as M14 variants are currently in production. More likely in real life they would give it an entirely new designation as they did for the M21 and M25 rifles. The Army is somewhat less nostalgic than we are.

I would also suspect we'd see the Russians, Indians, and Chinese making the Samozaryadnaya Vintovka Kalashnikova, Obrazets 2008 goda firing the 11.6 mm M08 round (.458 Weatherby Magnum) and the
Avtomat Kalshnikova, Obrazets 2008 goda firing the 13 mm M08 round (.50 Beowulf).

Kalashnikov actions have already been made in 5.45 x 39, 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 51, and 7.62 x 54R. Adding two new calibers would probably be not that hard.

I'm not so sure, BTW, that the M16 is that unsuitable for a mass army. Millions of US conscripts during the sixties and hundreds of thousands of Israeli conscripts since the seventies have learned the M16. I've taught the M16 to recruits and have not found it hard to do.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Alright, then. I hereby submit for formalized standards, the M1E15 Garand: 24 inch barrel, fixed stock, 14-round detachable magazine, chambered for .458 winchester magnum. We have the gun, we have the round, we can make it a magazine rifle with casual ease, the round is the same overall length is the .30-06, bringing the modifications down to an absolute minimum, and the magazine gives us the maximum possible capacity without screwing up the ergonomics, and though not being an existing size, magazines can be built with brutal simplicity. The standard service round will of course be 500 grain hollow point, which is already available from Hornady, the loading providing a velocity of 2,260fps for the bullet.

Sound good?

Be even better if you ditch the Hornady for 500grn Barnes TSX. Federal makes a load for .458 Win Mag using the 500grn Barnes X Bullet that flies a better trajector than the Hornady loads do. Personal experience with killing deer and other game tells me that the Barnes X and TSX bullets perform better than Hornady's offerings. Took a deer this past season on a frontal shot with a .376 Styer using a 270grn TSX, hit it just below the bass of the neck on the breast and exited about three inches down and right of the animals asshole. Pretty much turned the vitals into stewmeat and dropped the deer on the spot. Figure a .500grn TSX at the velocity your talking about will do some really ugly things to Mr. Baldrick's internal organs.

Just saying.

Holy shit!

MKSheppard wrote: M1919 (Canada kept them as an actual service weapon until very recently, so they'll have a lot of stocks of M1919s) they can be converted to water cooling as fast as we can do it.

You don't want the Canadian M1919's. It took lots of TLC to keep those WWII made guns working. I used to say that a killing burst was defined not as three or four trace as the book said, but as the number of rounds one could fire between stoppages

When they were new in .30-06, they seem to have been great weapons from what Ive heard, but even after two rebuilds, our forty-year old guns sucked in 7.62 NATO.

Stuart, what are the Chinese up to? They could throw together more than 25 million troops at short notice and produce more than enough kit. Maybe not top drawer but very useful.

Jonathan

KlavoHunter wrote:So, now that we've brought up the subject of Insurgency leaders popping up and making nice with the US and other Allied forces in the War on Damnation...

... what's the status of Osama? Is he going to pop up and say "Hi, guys!"?

And when he does, will we kill him anyways?

Nah then cause knowing our luck he'll get to hell escape, be immortal fast healing and such and still hate our guts. We can just throw him into a deep hole somewhere intill the situation is resolved.

Ok this might be a bit of a stupid question. With as big as the universe is there are odds that there are other planets with intelligent life there. So do each planet have there own heave and hell or are they interconnected somehow.

I rember that they talked about the demon armies invading before and the people were no match. So was that our planet they attacked in the past or some other planet. If it's ours then that might give some credance to the civilations that rose and fall for no appearant reason.

Another great chapter Stuart .

MKSheppard wrote: Wait.....why are we accepting a completely different caliber for our new Garands, raising the spectre of one rifle caliber for the "fire brigades", and another caliber for the mass army?

Look on it as the equivalent situation between the use of the M1 Garand and M1 carbine in WW2. Our M16A6 and M4A5 are intended for short-range street fighting an so on while the new M1A1 is intended for (a) longer range fighting (in infantry battles the 100 - 250 yard bracket) and for issue to the new home defense army, the need for which will become apparent very shortly. Another historical example to base on - Russian use of the AK-47 and SVD in infantry units.

Also, a very good point that's been made; the M1A1 and M16A6 by and large draw on different resources in industrial and production terms so we're doubling our small arms production base.

Sean Mulligan's unwelcome tangent split off. Let's remember, once again, I have a very light hand in Fanfics to foster open discussions and brainstorming but when I say let's not go there I actually mean it. Stuart is presenting us with one hell of a good story and I don't think we do him or ourselves any credit by trying to snipe about real world issues in a story about demons from hell invading Earth and a looming War with Heaven.

dragon wrote:Ok this might be a bit of a stupid question. With as big as the universe is there are odds that there are other planets with intelligent life there. So do each planet have there own heave and hell or are they interconnected somehow.

The way I see it, "heaven" and "hell" are two places in a higher dimension that are more or less "farming" people from our dimesnion for their own purposes. There's a sort of cold war being fought between the two bringing more and more planets in our dimension under their control. Normally one or the other finds a planet occupied by intelligent beings and exploits it. However, in the case of Earth, they both found the place at the same time and have been struggling over it. In the end, Yahweh decided this place was more trouble than it was worth so he sold his interest in us to Satan.

That means there are more inhabited planets and they have their own hells - it will make more sense when the topography of hell becomes a little clearer. But if humans look around, they might find all sorts of things they don't expect. There might also be other "places" in that higher dimension other than heaven or hell.

I rember that they talked about the demon armies invading before and the people were no match. So was that our planet they attacked in the past or some other planet. If it's ours then that might give some credance to the civilations that rose and fall for no appearant reason.

It might indeed . Also for some other elements of our mythology.

JBG wrote:Stuart, what are the Chinese up to? They could throw together more than 25 million troops at short notice and produce more than enough kit. Maybe not top drawer but very useful.

Jonathan

The Chinese, Australians, New Zealanders (a question - do succubi working in New Zealand pretend to be sheep?) etc have got away with it so far simply because humanity has been so catastrophically under-rated. Their turn will come (although I pity the demon legion trying to invade Australia amidst the crocodiles, snakes, spiders etc etc etc. They'll be begging to surrender within a week.)

Just like the Japs back in WWII, eh?

MKSheppard wrote:Hm. There's probably a lot of ex military armored vehicles, like M113s, M114s; V150 Commandos, etc which are now being refurbished and returned to service; not for active duty military service, but for Police fast-response units; to give them a chance to deal with possible Baldrick incursions. Also; they will be easier to support there logistically, than in an expeditionary role.

Well, if me and my family ain't dead in that Armageddon-verse, then I guess my dad's got a lot of work. He made lots of cash by refurbishing a bunch of ole decrepit police V150 Commandos. And he also bought some Land Rovers and put machinegun ring mounts (based on German half track ringmounts, no less!) on em for the po-lice as well.

Maybe Stuart can feature an angry fat bald "John Li" in the Philippines screaming at his stupid dumb subordinates and family members to work on those armored cars right

The reason I chose that one 37mm autocannon is because it is currently being built and used I believe. Its the primary arnament on the Flackpanzer Gepard over in Germany so no need to develop it. Just put it in a turret on a tracked chassis and wallah...Baldrick killer than can whack their light infantry and harpies.

Typhonis 1 wrote:The reason I chose that one 37mm autocannon is because it is currently being built and used I believe. Its the primary arnament on the Flackpanzer Gepard .

OK, you mean the Swiss Oerlikon-Contraves. 35 mm GDF series. Sure that would probably work. There are a number of other cannon on the 30 to 40 mm class that are already developed and in production for AFV use, including mounts, turrets, and fire control systems. I'm not sure what advantages this 35 mm gun would bring over them.