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OK, I posted and started this all off, Nolder, Shady, its your turn now. I am happy that we are getting thus underway.

Oh and for reference, Mark Rain is a bit of a far right crazy but thre is a lot of fear of CATO, rational or irrational. I hope his words entertained you though.

Pollux, I think you really need to rethink this post of yours. 60,000 troops killed? What did the UCSR do, nuke 'em? Or from the looks of the images you provided, and the death toll, they would've had to pretty well level most of the city. I suppose that's one way to deal with the refugee problem...kill 'em all.

Seriously, that post is just...wrong on so many levels. And since you're the one who set up with this 80,000 strong militia fighting, wiping them out in bombing strikes which kill 60,000 of them and send the rest running or surrendering? Uh, powergame a little?

Note I'm not going after the UCSR here, or Shady. Since AFAIK he had nothing to do with the post. But seriously. That needs to be retconned heavily.

MariusRoi wrote:

phongn wrote:EDIT: SABRE engines? Good luck on the R&D for that.

Alaska has working Turbo-Scram-Rockets, and Not a single person complained.

That is because Wilkonia has some shell corporations backed by WISH helping the university grant study programs involved in it (no not really, most of my intel is focused on the Caymans, IRT, and CATO so I don't have money to spend doing more than moderate spying on you and Steve).

Actually, I probably would've complained about turboscramrockets had I been active in the game at that point

Also, work is beginning on Shuttle II.

SiegeTank wrote:

Raj Ahten wrote:Well lets draw up some terms then Indhopal is interested in the bomber variant.

Alright, well, let's say we sell you a 15-year production license on the bomber variant for an unspecified but fair sum (I have no clue how much something like that would cost). You can produce as many as you want, for a modest per-airframe cut, and a slightly larger cut of any profits should you sell the aircraft to any foreign nation. There'll be a stipulation forbidding sales to Japanistan or any MESS country, but I doubt that'll be an issue.

Done. I suppose one of us will have to put it in a post to make it legit and that should do it.

SiegeTank wrote:

You can certainly get your guarantees. What do you have in mind?

We'd prefer the Japanistani's don't even so much as get a look at the exterior of the thing. Ultimately though a guarantee on that subject will have to do, we can't very well have inspectors crawling around your air bases looking for possible spies now can we?

Probably not on the inspections, but yeah at some point your just going have to trust me on that issue. Of course there is always the standby of cutting all military sales to me if it even looks like Japanistan is getting any of the tech though. That would play merry hell with Indhopal given the amount of crap I've bought from you.

SiegeTank wrote:

I'm intersted in the tankers, I need 24 new ones or so; its unfortunate to hear about the AWACS though. Perhaps I could buy an airframe and convert it to an AWACS role myself?

I'll happily sell you 24 tankers. And if you can make the AWACS conversion work then sure, why not -- I'll gladly sell you those airframes too. The KC-767 is certainly large enough.

I think I'll take you up on those tankers. It looks like I'm probably going to get AWACS craft from Tonkin or Langley though, depending on what exactly they can offer.

Big, small, medium airframes, all sorts of radars, and of course systems integration with the existing Indhopal air-defense system.

RogueIce wrote:Pollux, I think you really need to rethink this post of yours. 60,000 troops killed? What did the UCSR do, nuke 'em? Or from the looks of the images you provided, and the death toll, they would've had to pretty well level most of the city. I suppose that's one way to deal with the refugee problem...kill 'em all.

Seriously, that post is just...wrong on so many levels. And since you're the one who set up with this 80,000 strong militia fighting, wiping them out in bombing strikes which kill 60,000 of them and send the rest running or surrendering? Uh, powergame a little?

Note I'm not going after the UCSR here, or Shady. Since AFAIK he had nothing to do with the post. But seriously. That needs to be retconned heavily.

I'm not averse to retconning any of this, but it made sense in my mind (which admittedly knows almost nothing about these things, so yeah, you're probably right. )

Firstly, I'm just going to come out and say that Empyrean City is essentially a scaled down San Francisco Bay Area (I'm thinking that maybe half as large seems right), and the NDF positions were in a region extending from roughly where Berkeley is located to Palo Alto: even scaled down, that seems like it could be enough space for 80,000 men to hide in.

Addressing the death toll, the NDF had no protection from the bombs greater than what is afforded by a typical basement, and absolutely no way of taking down aircraft more powerful than light machine guns and shoulder-fired rockets from around the 60s or so. In other words, almost completely defenseless from the modern UCSR airforce.

In addition, The UCSR bombers seemed to be very accurately homing in on the NDF positions... somehow (followed the scent of weed?), so a total slaughter seemed to be appropriate.

Also, as by this point, the area had nicely segregated into nice NDF/Commie/Refugee regions, completely leveling the NDF zone would appear to be completely valid, making finding the exact positions of the NDF troops unnecessary to begin with.

Finally, from a OOC perspective, I started to get the feeling that people were tiring of this whole Misterian Refugee business, and decided to end it in what essentially amounts to the Giant Climax FireballTM. I admit that making the NDF army that large in the first place was a mistake.

This is my rationale for what occurred, but as I said, due to what is essentially cluelessness on my part, I have no objections to a retcon at all, and I'm open for suggestions as to how to make the whole thing more realistic.

The most realistic is basically using limited airstrikes to hit them when they come in the open while Misterian troops have to perform the bloody duty of rooting the NDF out of abandoned buildings and other urban strongholds.

You've written the NDF as basically a bunch of extremist radicals who don't just want to create the New Communist State, but to do so on the bones of anyone and everyone whom opposed their views. The Army's 'betrayal" only "proves" their belief that the Revolution is fragile unless its foes are dealt with harshly and brutally. For their ideologists it's clear that the Army doesn't have the stomach for a real Revolution and has probably been bribed by foreign capitalists to turn on the Revolution.

I expect many of the most devoted to go down fighting hard, some isolated contingents might melt away if their members are less devoted.

Ironically, until the moment that it becomes undeniable, I also expect that the NDF will not actually believe the UCSR is attacking them, but rather that the bombers are from the "capitalist nations" and that the treacherous Army is claiming UCSR support to "trick the masses into accepting Capitalist bondage", likely creating a convoluted theory that the Army, under foreign pay, faked being a Revolutionary force to get the Revolution going, destroying civilian Misterian government and bringing the NDF rank-and-file out in the open to be identified and destroyed, thus paving the way for the Army to take over with the support of the capitalist imperialists. They may very well hold out hope until the very end that "Comrade Shady" and the UCSR is backing them and is preparing to "save the Revolution from the treacherous Army and their capitalist backers".

Uh...I read Pollux's post as the NDF being routed by the Army, thanks to USCR air support, hence the casualty rate.

Still questionable for the Army to win that fast.

http://stgjr.com/sdnworld/mapproposal2.png

I've increased the size of the western island (NZ South Island rotated to the right) so that it could conceivably be a Second/Third World "Imperium" that is a Tsardom in actual power because of its lack of full economic development and capability.

Steve wrote:Still questionable for the Army to win that fast.

The NDF lack heavy gear and air support. The Army did win the conventional fight because the NDF decided to actually "stand up" to it. It's kinda like Tet Offensive.

Besides, the NDF did not have cover, bunkers or underground tonnels. The UCSR most likely used large FAEs to bomb their positions.

RogueIce wrote:Or from the looks of the images you provided, and the death toll, they would've had to pretty well level most of the city. I suppose that's one way to deal with the refugee problem...kill 'em all.

The new government of Misteria won't have much of a problem with high casualties among the refugees because that can be handily blamed on the NDF.

IIRC the worst, longest fighting during Tet was in cities. Which this generally is. But I won't press the issue too hard.

Anyway, bed time

PeZook wrote:Uh...I read Pollux's post as the NDF being routed by the Army, thanks to USCR air support, hence the casualty rate.

That's pretty much how it happened. What's left of the NDF will be routed by the Misterian army, with continued air support from the UCSR, and perhaps limited special forces involvment.

Also: Anyone who had citizens there, that were not evacuated already, can expect the UCSR has evacuated them free of charge - unless they wanted to stay.

And, the hospital ships which arrived there are now in the process of helping out the wounded and the sick, while the UCSR delivers humanitarian aid to the refuges. I'm just to lazy to write up a post right now.

Of course, since the fighting took place in cities, lots of civilians probably died as well. So...I don't think everybody's gonna be all happy about the USCR coming in to "help" after burning down their homes

I guess the logical reply to that would be "Would you rather have the NDF burn down your home and you alongside?"

Duh. Of course, people aren't always rational about this sort of thing.

Stas Bush wrote:I guess the logical reply to that would be "Would you rather have the NDF burn down your home and you alongside?"

People are idiots. Naturally, that won't occur to them.

More precisely, they won't care. Their homes are ruined, perhaps some of their relatives are dead, they're angry and anguished and need someone to focus their anger on.

I'm just being realistic. Warfare is ugly.

Which in turn can be an easy thing to smear with and is great propganda wise.

PeZook wrote:More precisely, they won't care. Their homes are ruined, perhaps some of their relatives are dead, they're angry and anguished and need someone to focus their anger on.

True. And since the NDF are gone it may be difficult to direct it towards them rather than the UCSR...

I'm just being realistic. Warfare is ugly.

Well yes. There's no disputing that.

Ryan Thunder wrote:And since the NDF are gone it may be difficult to direct it towards them rather than the UCSR...

It's a communist revolution, isn't it? And they probably still took thousands of NDF militants prisoner. So, one word: showtrials!

Yep! It's essentially a crucial moment for PR efforts and spin

Naturally, there's probably some countries which will be spinning this their own way.

SiegeTank wrote:

Ryan Thunder wrote:And since the NDF are gone it may be difficult to direct it towards them rather than the UCSR...

It's a communist revolution, isn't it? And they probably still took thousands of NDF militants prisoner. So, one word: showtrials!

"Blaspheming against God? Off with his head!

Insulting my mother? Off with his head!

Insulting my dog? Off with his head!

Insulting my dead Great Great Great Grandmother? Off with his head!

Stepping on that stone? Off with his head!

Forgetting to wake up? Off with his head!"

Ok Shady, do you want to continue on from your last post or do you want me to post and fill in the whole palace stuff? Alternenatively do you want to wait for anyone who is "coming" to post?

PeZook wrote:Naturally, there's probably some countries which will be spinning this their own way.

Oh, but who could possibly argue with Revolutionary Justice™?

In all seriousness the Misterians don't have to put the whole lot of 'em against the wall for silly reasons. Just... What little survives of the high echelon, for crimes against humanity. I bet fanatics like the NDF were involved in a whole bunch of massacres. Put the rank-and-file to work clearing rubble in chain gangs. It'll be pretty hard to argue with that.