Tracked Vehicles Instead of Walkers...

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't see why. Yes, so the Rebel Snowspeeders did mostly dick against the AT-ATs. That's most likely because they weren't designed to. Given the minuscule size of protorps and the accompanying launchers I fail to see why they can't be mounted on purely atmospheric vehicles (as evidenced by the fact that real-life combat aircraft regularly carry weapons significantly larger than that). Assuming no starfighters=no aerial threat worth mentioning is IMHO foolish.

Probably because the Rebels had just startted supplying the base (it WAS a relatively new base, and it takes time to move in all the neccessary supplies and shit without remaining detected.) and at least one of the more recent shipments (the attack on Derra IV from the TESB Radio drama) got wiped out by the Empire prior to the battle of Hoth. That took out a healthy chunk of their supplies, as well as at least another starfighter squadron that was to be assigned there.

In any case, they evidently had some explosives, but either the delivery mechanism wasn't workable or they lacked the power to penetrate the armor.

And while we know (Isard's Revenge) that large torpedoes could fuck over an At-AT (and something of the yield of a proton grenade could probably do so too, since they can supposedly damage starfighters), that doesnt tell us how many would be required- smaller torps (like the micro-torpedoes the spacetroopers use) are of course correspondingly less powerful.

[Darth Wong]

(Bolded a weird part for emphasis. I don't see how that makes any sense. Maybe it means to say "repulsorlift craft of similar size?" But even that makes no sense.)

You know that aircraft of today have turning radii usually counted in kilometres, unless going at particularly slow speed. The same principle should apply to repulsorcraft in general, though, the small and highly agile snowspeeders at the battle of Hoth were able to execute some very tight turns, albeit at fairly slow speed.

Aircraft today are hindered by the need for aerodynamic lift/maneuvering (mostly), and structural and physiological limits on the g forces they can pull.
Neither applies to a craft with repulsors, TVC, and accelleration compensators.
They should be able to change heading (if not-immediately-direction) at will and slow down just as fast (if not faster) than they can accellerate.

Cars can typically brake harder than they accelerate. There are certain advantages to having actual contact with the ground.

[nightmare]

In that case, why don't the A5 and A6 appear to have drastically different proportions? If the A6 is 20 meters tall and 50 meters long, then the A5 is 3/4 of the height and less than half of the length!

Actually, I think the 15 m height for the A5 also includes the mast. So it's rather 10 m high and 21.8 m long, and the proportions are not quite so drastically different.

[Anguirus]

^ Well, I guess that makes sense. I question the wisdom of using the telescoping mast as a measure of hgeight, but the A6 diagram in the ICS, taking another look, looks closer to 20 than 30 m anyway.

That gives the AT-AT a pretty good place on the battlefield then...a heavily-armored medium artillery piece, that can also be used as a large APC. The Juggernaut is more of a freakishly large MBT slash APC slash run-things-over machine.

[The Original Nex]

Well, I guess that makes sense. I question the wisdom of using the telescoping mast as a measure of hgeight, but the A6 diagram in the ICS, taking another look, looks closer to 20 than 30 m anyway.

IIRC the mast of the A5 does not telescope, it is rather a permenant fixture of the design, and is quite thickly built.

EDIT

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:A5 ... rofile.jpg

Indeed it appears that the A5 mast does not telescope up and down. Must have been one of the many (wise) revisions to the A6.

[Elfdart]

Cars can typically brake harder than they accelerate. There are certain advantages to having actual contact with the ground.

True, because aircraft can't stop in mid-air -unless they run out of fuel, of course.

[Anguirus]

Wow, good catch. Those masts look very different. The A5 one is built up so heavily that it might well be armored and able to take a hit or two...not that that helps the poor bastard up at the top. Ultimately it seems a bit silly if you can't retract it.

[Big Orange]

Why was the original Juggernaut supposedly seen as obsolete a mere two decades after the Clone Wars - in fact how come the Imperial Star Destroyer seemed to have completely phased out common Clone Wars work horses such as the Venator Star Destroyers and Acclamator, when they were perfectly adequate warships? Of course the ISD was the Empire attempting to fully integrate or centralise the Navy, with a "do all" warship that could land Army/Stormtrooper taskforces and also fight fleet battles (jack of all trades and master of none come to mind, even though the ISD is iconic of Imperial pan-galactic might).

And the AT-AT would've made more sense if it was built a little lower on the ground, maybe had three pairs of legs and point defense anti-infantry weaponry if it really was supposed to be a mobile gun platform and troop transporter.

[Jim Raynor]

Why was the original Juggernaut supposedly seen as obsolete a mere two decades after the Clone Wars

Because EU writers are stupid and think that being over 20 years old means something is obsolete, even in a civilization with slow technological advancement like SW.

in fact how come the Imperial Star Destroyer seemed to have completely phased out common Clone Wars work horses such as the Venator Star Destroyers and Acclamator

Venator: Saxton wrote this one, so he actually provided a decent reason. This was a "jack of all trades" ship as well, one that probably carried too many fighters, and had design vulnerabilities like huge flight deck. It was replaced by the much more "robutst" ISD.

Acclamator: Because the EU writers are dumbasses who think the ISD is automatically better for every mission because it's bigger and 20 years younger.

[Big Orange]

That sounds like complete gibberish typical of the uninspired EU, Jim Raynor - even with our society with rapidly advancing technology, the world militaries still use weapons, equipment and vehicles that were first introduced many decades ago since the 1920s to 1950s (wasn't the US Militaries' HMG that was first issued in 1921 still in full operation today?).

Even if the Imperial Star Destroyer was introduced in large numbers, with the sheer size and scope of the Galactic Empire's matchless space fleet I can fully accept that the Venator Star Destroyer and Acclamator would still be very common backbone Imperial vessels by the time of TESB. It would've taken at least fifty years to phase out the original Clone Wars early Imperial Navy if it already proved itself to be a war winning military (same goes for ground units).

[Anguirus]

Wait a sec, guys. As soon as AotC introduced the Acclamator, it was retconned into the Imperial fleet all over the place as a troop transport and frigate. It's the Venator that mysteriously disappears in the EU, probably because ImpStars and VicStars are theoretically better and more hardy for fleet combat conditions.

And the AT-AT would've made more sense if it was built a little lower on the ground, maybe had three pairs of legs and point defense anti-infantry weaponry if it really was supposed to be a mobile gun platform and troop transporter.

You just described the AT-TE. That's one design that should have stuck around for awhile. Instead, the EU declared it "replaced" by the AT-AT (also a Clone Wars-era design, it was first deployed at Jabiim), which clearly fills a somewhat different role.

[VT-16]

in fact how come the Imperial Star Destroyer seemed to have completely phased out common Clone Wars work horses such as the Venator Star Destroyers and Acclamator

Can't phase out something that doesn't already do your job.

The Acclamator is an assault ship. It can carry lots of people and gear, and it is still in use by the Empire (EAW, SW:E, SW:R, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds etc.)
The Venator is a multi-purpose destroyer/carrier. It has that big deck in the middle, which is a liability, but still saw service in the early Empire, and later on ended up in the hands of third parties (Mandalorians, Hutt Cartel, Zann Consortium etc. as per EAW:FOC).
The Imperator could bring more firepower to a fight and had a decent complement of troops and fighters on board.
The Tector is good for capital ship battles and doesn't have any significant openings to exploit.
The Victory was like an ISD light, so it also had more staying-power.

Basically, since 20-odd years of EU had little to go on and often not enough imagination, ISDs and VSDs was all there was for decades of publishing.

Most of the ground material is also used to some degrees, 20 years after the CW. AT-APs (EAW), AT-TEs (SW:E, SW:R), AT-RTs (SW:Galaxies, SW:Lethal Alliance), AT-PTs, ISP speeders (EAW), Juggernauts, 74-Z speeder bikes, later-generation AT-ATs, AT-STs were all still present.
And whatever the Empire threw away, the Rebels managed to find and refurbish: LAATs (SW:BFII), Providence carrier/destroyers (SW:R), Recusant destroyers (SW:R) etc.

[Big Orange]

You just described the AT-TE. That's one design that should have stuck around for awhile. Instead, the EU declared it "replaced" by the AT-AT (also a Clone Wars-era design, it was first deployed at Jabiim), which clearly fills a somewhat different role.

Well the AT-TE was a little small and somewhat fragile looking - I would've made the AT-AT an essentially upsized AT-TE, but more robust and featureless looking with a large siege gun sticking out the front (like a WWII tank destroyer).

EDIT: I think the shortcomings of the Venator could've been rectified if they refitted the Venator more for space combat by filling in most of the docking bays then bolting in bigger generators for the shields and turbo lasers.

Also LordShaithis champions droid brains for Imperial missle systems - why not have droid brains fitted into the majority of TIE craft? They could save trillions in life support and pilot lives.

[Tanasinn]

why not have droid brains fitted into the majority of TIE craft? They could save trillions in life support and pilot lives.

Because droids (unless given real "free will," I assume) are dumber and far less effective than real pilots. Of course, I can't blame the Trade Federation or anyone else for keeping the droids "dumb," can you imagine the distaster you'd have on your hands if a given group of droid fighters decided they didn't want to be used as cannon fodder anymore?

[Big Orange]

why not have droid brains fitted into the majority of TIE craft? They could save trillions in life support and pilot lives.

Because droids (unless given real "free will," I assume) are dumber and far less effective than real pilots. Of course, I can't blame the Trade Federation or anyone else for keeping the droids "dumb," can you imagine the distaster you'd have on your hands if a given group of droid fighters decided they didn't want to be used as cannon fodder anymore?

I think the concept of manned fighters is silly, given the technology and why would fighter droids act out if they are not given real sentience?

[VT-16]

can you imagine the distaster you'd have on your hands if a given group of droid fighters decided they didn't want to be used as cannon fodder anymore?

On the sentience of droid fighters, it's mentioned in New Essential Guide to Droids that TF sub-droid fighters established underwater colonies on Mon Calamari following the end of the CW. They made a deal with the Quarren to hunt predators in exchange for repairs and maintenance.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

can you imagine the distaster you'd have on your hands if a given group of droid fighters decided they didn't want to be used as cannon fodder anymore?

On the sentience of droid fighters, it's mentioned in New Essential Guide to Droids that TF sub-droid fighters established underwater colonies on Mon Calamari following the end of the CW. They made a deal with the Quarren to hunt predators in exchange for repairs and maintenance.

Tell me you are joking.

*Goes for lobotomy*

[VT-16]

Nope. So now Calamari's got a happy colony of intelligent manta-shaped battle droids. :P

Not to mention the Orange Panthacs, a B2 platoon who fought and defeated YV Fire Breathers and got a special commendation from Chief of State Cal Omas.

[Noble Ire]

Nope. So now Calamari's got a happy colony of intelligent manta-shaped battle droids.

Not to mention the Orange Panthacs, a B2 platoon who fought and defeated YV Fire Breathers and got a special commendation from Chief of State Cal Omas.

I didn't actually have a problem with the B2s; they have at least demonstrated limited, independantly functional intelligence, and it makes sense that some commander might deploy them if he found the platoon in storage during the war (and bestowing commendations upon droids is hardly unprecedented: see TPM).

But the manta droid bit was pretty stupid.

[Elheru Aran]

Also LordShaithis champions droid brains for Imperial missle systems - why not have droid brains fitted into the majority of TIE craft? They could save trillions in life support and pilot lives.

They were; the TIE/droid, produced in huge quantities by the World Devastators. Not a notable success although the sheer numbers were able to overwhelm quite a few Rebel fighters.

[Tanasinn]

why would fighter droids act out if they are not given real sentience?

I assume they WOULDN'T act out if not given "real" sentience, but the drawback of that (at least in what they've told us) is that unintelligent droids are predictable and very uncreative fighters.

I could easily see "real" self-aware droid fighters getting upset at being used as fodder or simply deciding they didn't want to fight. I always imagined this was why the CIS opted for "dumb" droids in its army and dry navy.


(Further, the idea of fighters "retiring" after the war to live in the ocean is just silly, especially considering that the civil war droids seem to be represented being universally dim or lacking in independence.)

[VT-16]

Perhaps they're from the Manta droid officer's corps, semi-sentient battle droids that lead and coordinate the dumber ones? :P

[Big Orange]

I could easily see "real" self-aware droid fighters getting upset at being used as fodder or simply deciding they didn't want to fight.

That could exactly be said for the young adolescent cadets that were drafted into the Imperial Fighter Corps. then forced to fight in comparatively fragile ball shaped crates (although the original TIE is perhaps underrated as a utilitarian space fighter). And what about organic droids such as the Stormtrooper clones?

[Tanasinn]

I could easily see "real" self-aware droid fighters getting upset at being used as fodder or simply deciding they didn't want to fight.

That could exactly be said for the young adolescent cadets that were drafted into the Imperial Fighter Corps. then forced to fight in comparatively fragile ball shaped crates (although the original TIE is perhaps underrated as a utilitarian space fighter). And what about organic droids such as the Stormtrooper clones?

Stormtroopers don't pilot fightercraft- they're marines. I honestly don't know if there are clones in the Imperial Fighter Corps, but even if there are, they are human. Being a heavily indoctrinated soldier does not purge you of unquantifiable things such as "gut instinct" or ingenuity or even the fear of looking inferior by comparison to others. One presumes a droid, particularly a "dumb" one, is going to lack in any sort of creativity (much like current computers), and would be completely free of things such as gut instinct and a desire to be competitive with one's peers, which would appear to be products of our own evolution and how we construct society.

As for children in the Fighter Corps? If anything, I think this would decrease one's chances of objecting to Imperial authority, as a lot of our personality and what we accept as normal is programmed into us as children. By comparison, we know relatively little about how sentient droids think. The fact that they're artificial no doubt changes things dramatically. Indeed, droids have never been shown to go through any sort of "childhood" or imprinting stage. I believe that this would contribute to a fully sentient and independent droid acting in a self-preserving manner free of the social expectations impressed upon humans.

[Cykeisme]

IF the Grand Army used clone infantry and clone pilots, I don't see why the Empire would have stopped using either.

Our current understanding is that by the time of the Empire, there are human recruits introduced into the clone stormtrooper ranks, and that the recruits who excel in battle and receive commendations are often introduced as templates for new lines of clone "models".

I would assume that this is how the fighter pilot corp works.. plenty of clones with some human pilots, the best of which are used as clone templates.


And quit it with EU "fragile ball shaped crate" crap already. G-Canon comes first. TIE Fighters are powerful and durable starfighters capable of easily outperforming their contemporary opposition.