StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Akhlut wrote:How about SD: Total War? :lol:

This should totally be the name.

Jesus christ, SD.net world has no mechanics whatsoever save the initial OOB purchase system, and it works fine. There's no need to develop arcane points systems to "encourage trade between players". The only effect such a policy will have is to discourage people who don't feel like building huge spreadsheets just to track their myriad building, upgrades, merchant ships and stuff, and expanding them every time they sign a trade agreement with someone.

Unless people really want a forum driven wargame, but in this case I'll just bow out.

Alright, we'll just stick with armies and castles based around points systems. The rest can just be RPed.

I suspected this question would come up if we kept adding on rules. Ie, have we gone too far. And we might of, Pezook certainly thinks so. Lets review, we now have.

A point based army purchasing scheme that has since been extended to buying castles as well.
-troops are bought in groups of 100 and average soldiers cost 40, individuals and other stuff can be bought with the same points.
-castles cost 2500 points initially and twice that for each level beyond that.
Production,province and upkeep rules tying into that.
-each province produces 200 points of income each year
-each army costs 1/5 of its value in maintenance deducted from annual income.
Rules for how much ship and airship transport capacity costs.
-a ship costs its transport capacity in men. so a 100 point ship carries a hundred men
-transports incapable of combat are half price
-airships cost double
Rules for castles.
-a castle deducts 10 percent from the enemy force strength per level.
Rules for battle changing magic.
-points can be set aside for a pool of casting energy that replenishes each year and can be used to sway a battle in your favour.
And now a trade system.
- you get a percentage increase to your income if you trade a good your recipient doesnt have with them and they get the same increase.

Have we gone too far? Is this an rp story based game with rules as a fallback for dealing with contentious issues or has it now become a rules light wargame?

I think with a few tweaks, that'll be a workable core rule set. Also, I think castles should have a maximum level of 6.

Now I just need to write up my fleets and my spellcasters, then we can figure out how to handle hero units.

Anyway, here's a suggested points spread for my armies. This is likely to change as we finalize the details.

Levy Infantry- 20pts
Levy Skirmishers- 20pts
Levy Archers- 20pts
Levy Slingers- 20pts
Peltasts- 40pts
Regular Archers- 40pts
Spearmen- 40pts
Shieldbearers- 50pts
Wallbreakers- 60pts
Skirmisher Cavalry- 40 pts
Scout Cavalry- 40pts
Thessalian Cavalry- 80pts
Royal Guards- 120pts

Are we still having provinces with levels, or has that bit the dust?

The map isnt very conducive to that. Sides its simpler this way.

All right, makes sense. It just encourages expansion, that's all.

Darkevilme wrote:I suspected this question would come up if we kept adding on rules. Ie, have we gone too far. And we might of, Pezook certainly thinks so. Lets review, we now have.

A point based army purchasing scheme that has since been extended to buying castles as well.
-troops are bought in groups of 100 and average soldiers cost 40, individuals and other stuff can be bought with the same points.
-castles cost 2500 points initially and twice that for each level beyond that.
Production,province and upkeep rules tying into that.
-each province produces 200 points of income each year
-each army costs 1/5 of its value in maintenance deducted from annual income.
Rules for how much ship and airship transport capacity costs.
-a ship costs its transport capacity in men. so a 100 point ship carries a hundred men
-transports incapable of combat are half price
-airships cost double
Rules for castles.
-a castle deducts 10 percent from the enemy force strength per level.
Rules for battle changing magic.
-points can be set aside for a pool of casting energy that replenishes each year and can be used to sway a battle in your favour.
And now a trade system.
- you get a percentage increase to your income if you trade a good your recipient doesnt have with them and they get the same increase.

Have we gone too far? Is this an rp story based game with rules as a fallback for dealing with contentious issues or has it now become a rules light wargame?

Yes its gone to far. Not sure what to fix, but this is much more complicated than a good rp needs to be.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Darkevilme wrote:I suspected this question would come up if we kept adding on rules. Ie, have we gone too far. And we might of, Pezook certainly thinks so. Lets review, we now have.

A point based army purchasing scheme that has since been extended to buying castles as well.
-troops are bought in groups of 100 and average soldiers cost 40, individuals and other stuff can be bought with the same points.
-castles cost 2500 points initially and twice that for each level beyond that.
Production,province and upkeep rules tying into that.
-each province produces 200 points of income each year
-each army costs 1/5 of its value in maintenance deducted from annual income.
Rules for how much ship and airship transport capacity costs.
-a ship costs its transport capacity in men. so a 100 point ship carries a hundred men
-transports incapable of combat are half price
-airships cost double
Rules for castles.
-a castle deducts 10 percent from the enemy force strength per level.
Rules for battle changing magic.
-points can be set aside for a pool of casting energy that replenishes each year and can be used to sway a battle in your favour.
And now a trade system.
- you get a percentage increase to your income if you trade a good your recipient doesnt have with them and they get the same increase.

Have we gone too far? Is this an rp story based game with rules as a fallback for dealing with contentious issues or has it now become a rules light wargame?

Yes its gone to far. Not sure what to fix, but this is much more complicated than a good rp needs to be.

As long as we keep the trade system simple and mostly RP based, I think the rules set is simple enough, honestly. Aside from figuring out points for purchasing units, the rest is fairly simple; castles take 10% off an opposing force per level, points buy an equivalent amount of magic that replenishes per turn, and provinces give 200 income/turn, with the army maintenance fee being 1/5 of the total points of the army. It looks long in list form, but all of it seems fairly simple to remember.

Now, how do we go about annexing unoccupied lands? If it's too hard, we'll barely grow beyond starting territories, and if it's too easy, we'll all soon rival Rome in size.

How about, sending an army with 200pts value lets you conquer a province, but it's unavailable for the rest of the year after annexing new lands. This simulates troops being tied up with integrating conquered land. So, a 10,000 point army would be able to add 50 new provinces, but would be effectively out of action until the next game year.

Sounds good, but how would we integrate more 'civilized' barbarians that are either squatting on old castles or have built some of their own forts? Or is that going to be handwaved away? (not that I'm bitching; I understand doing it for simplicity's sake)

I'd say for that sort of thing, we just pay more money to get a new province to simulate the portion of the economy needed to feed besieging troops, with perhaps higher level castles in captured lands taking more than one turn to be captured. Of course, this has the standard caveat that if this is too complex, then we just ignore it. If Zook or Romulan don't like this idea, then I'm not attached to it.

I say we just handwave it, and pretend that there aren't any other groups out there with the knowhow to make castles. It's much simpler.

and if you want, we can make NPC states. They'll be much better organized, with castles and suchlike, but all their provinces will be annexed once you take all their castles.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Darkevilme wrote:I suspected this question would come up if we kept adding on rules. Ie, have we gone too far. And we might of, Pezook certainly thinks so. Lets review, we now have.

A point based army purchasing scheme that has since been extended to buying castles as well.
-troops are bought in groups of 100 and average soldiers cost 40, individuals and other stuff can be bought with the same points.
-castles cost 2500 points initially and twice that for each level beyond that.
Production,province and upkeep rules tying into that.
-each province produces 200 points of income each year
-each army costs 1/5 of its value in maintenance deducted from annual income.
Rules for how much ship and airship transport capacity costs.
-a ship costs its transport capacity in men. so a 100 point ship carries a hundred men
-transports incapable of combat are half price
-airships cost double
Rules for castles.
-a castle deducts 10 percent from the enemy force strength per level.
Rules for battle changing magic.
-points can be set aside for a pool of casting energy that replenishes each year and can be used to sway a battle in your favour.
And now a trade system.
- you get a percentage increase to your income if you trade a good your recipient doesnt have with them and they get the same increase.

Have we gone too far? Is this an rp story based game with rules as a fallback for dealing with contentious issues or has it now become a rules light wargame?

Yes its gone to far. Not sure what to fix, but this is much more complicated than a good rp needs to be.

We've made basic rules for, I think, all the key things this game will have. To make it less complicated something will have to lose the mechanics assigned to it. that's why its hard to fix it backwards.

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Anyhoo, I'm adding some more stuff.

Here's my naval overview:

Liburnian

The Liburnian is the smallest warship in the Sarreosi navy. They do not carry marines.
Instead, the 100 rowers are split into a top and a bottom rank, with the top rank rowing or fighting as needed.
Because of its small size, it is more maneuverable then larger ships.
Points cost- 40

Quinquereme

The Quinquereme is named after the 5 banks of oars used to propell it. It has one elevated fighting tower and two ballistas.
Points cost- 100

Deceres-

The Deceres is the heaviest Sarreosi warship. It carries 570 rowers, 30 sailors, and 250 marines. Its ram is hardened bronze, and it boasts 2 fighting towers and 6 ballistas. The ballistas can fire ordinary darts, or harpago grapnels that can spear and reel in enemy ships for boarding. The Deceres measures 40 meters in length, with a 2 meter draught and is 6 meters wide. The oar outriggers extending this to 8.5 meters
Points cost- 340

I'll get to siege equipment and special units in another post.

Conquering and integrating new provinces isn't gonna be easy at all, to be frank: it could take generations to make them stop giving you trouble (not income, though: we'll have an economy based mostly on natural resources, after all.

I'llbe satisfied if people simply RPed that part, though. Or maybe have a conquered province tie up a really modest amount of troops for a decade or so? I don't know...

How about dice rolling for the AI and not the players?

What would the dice be used for?
We have three choices for NPC faction control.
1. We trust the player interacting with the NPC faction to do so in a mature and sensible fashion narrating both sides of the story, or at least an entertaining fashion.

2. We distribute control of NPC factions arbitrarily amidst the players.

3. We get a gamesmaster to work his fingers to the bone playing all the barbarian interactions.

hm.. Yeah. I don't have time to NPC all barbarians.

Option 1, definitely. We'll need some sort of moderator/GM sort of person to settle disputes and prevent players from continually steamrolling all barbarian opposition (unless, of course, you're running into 500 goblin peasants with your 200 dragon-mounted cavalry backed up by 500 stone golems), but that was going to be necessary anyway.

So, who's gonna be the mod/GM?

PeZook wrote:Conquering and integrating new provinces isn't gonna be easy at all, to be frank: it could take generations to make them stop giving you trouble (not income, though: we'll have an economy based mostly on natural resources, after all.

I'llbe satisfied if people simply RPed that part, though. Or maybe have a conquered province tie up a really modest amount of troops for a decade or so? I don't know...

How about we go with my first idea, but gradually scale things back for the quantity of troops tied up?

For example, occupied provinces tie up 200 points of troops at first (say, 10000 pt army occupying 50 provinces), then 100 points the year after that, then 50, then 25, then they're considered integrated enough to not require a full time presence.
I know a province won't be fully integrated after 5 years, but it could be reasonably subdued.

The idea is that barbarian lands still keep the occupiers busy, even if they don't win.

I am definately in for this. Could someone please put me up in dark grey in the holy lands? Thanks. I will read and respond more later, when I am at my home comp.

I'm voting we stop adding rules. We can let people tie up a number of troops they deem suitable in controlling the territories they've expanded into with the caveat that if they're using too few their peers have a right to call them on it for their mysteriously meek newly gained barbarian provinces. We're in danger of being more complicated than STGOD 2k8 after all.