StarDestroyer.Net BBS

As for using the Coliseum for settling personal disputes, see my proposals for rules in this thread in the HoC; and there is a seperate discussion in the Senate.

I'd like to hurry this into usefulness. Seems there's a market.

Just as a question, has anyone looked at Rob's original rules for the Senate, at how it was created? The Senate was always, in my eyes, supposed to be somewhat ridiculous, and I've just behaved the way Rob wanted us to behave, in my own eyes at least. The Senate was supposed to be a parody of the real Imperial Senate in Star Wars, as I saw it, and we were supposed to make fun of ourselves...

..Instead, it's being taken far more seriously than I ever really imagined it would be. The word "peon", people, is used in the Senate's official rules. There are also such quotes as "Democracy in inaction" as the title of one section, and such rules as this

7. Your Father smelt of Elderberries - Yes you can say what you like in here, and none of the non-Senators can reply or defend themselves. They can only look on in envy and disgust. However, I expect the members to behave themselves. You got in here on good conduct, don't change now.

Or such things as:

[Poll] = Something silly, a perfect example would be Skimmer's Budget Poll thread. the Board automatically adds this so you don't need to worry.

and of course:

4. Wheeeeee - The rest of the time this place is for fun, and pretending to be crooked politicians, so if it doesn't carry a Serious thread label Crack on and have fun.

In short, I think I've been behaving in the Senate exactly like Senators were supposed to behave from the very first, and I've always behaved that way in the Senate aware of the fact that it's a big farce, and that my taking it so seriously and being so melodramatic is just my humour. It's in the rules of the Senate that one of the Senate's purposes is to let the Senates pal around pretending to be crooked politicians, and you're complaining about Senators being melodramatic? Uhm?

Maybe people should carefully read through the Senate rules before commenting on what's wrong with the Senate and Senators, and especially suggest it's fallen away from what Rob intended it to be, because it seems to me that Rob intended for it to be very like how I've tried to play things in it.

From the start, I've regarded the Senate as a fun game, and why not, it essentially says it is in the Senate's rules!

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Just to note, the reason why I brought up things like the dispute with Poe in the Senate is because I felt it would be impossible to actually debate him anywhere else due to the fact that every single discussion on this board turns into a dogpiled shitfest. Debating on the board has become essentially impossible anywhere except the Senate.

So I take it then - presumably - the debate that you so sought with Poe would have happened before your motion to have him stripped of his powers as Senator passed?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Maybe people should carefully read through the Senate rules before commenting on what's wrong with the Senate and Senators, and especially suggest it's fallen away from what Rob intended it to be, because it seems to me that Rob intended for it to be very like how I've tried to play things in it.

From the start, I've regarded the Senate as a fun game, and why not, it essentially says it is in the Senate's rules!

I've just looked over the Senate, and asides from a few threads in the six months or so after its creation (Jan 2006), it always seems to have been a forum for discussing serious policy issues, heck, even in its early days that's what it looked like to me. If anything, I think that's more indicative of either no-one really thinking about what the board was supposed to be for when it was originally created, or a failure to update the original guidelines as it developed.

Whatever it was originally intended for, it seems to have ended up a place where the bigwigs can discuss important issues without everyone under the sun charging in to have their two cents, yet one that can also be viewed by users and has some degree of feedback possible. I think that's a good thing to have, really, so long as personal politics don't start to slip into it too much.

Crown wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Just to note, the reason why I brought up things like the dispute with Poe in the Senate is because I felt it would be impossible to actually debate him anywhere else due to the fact that every single discussion on this board turns into a dogpiled shitfest. Debating on the board has become essentially impossible anywhere except the Senate.

So I take it then - presumably - the debate that you so sought with Poe would have happened before your motion to have him stripped of his powers as Senator passed?

I posted the thread to call him out, with the expectation that the other Senators would judge our debate on whether or not to hold a vote. I fully expected to have an extended debate with Lord Poe in that thread and I was deeply surprised when he just left instead.

I posted that thread there because I knew that Poe could reply to it--and I wanted him to.

He chose to leave instead.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I posted the thread to call him out, with the expectation that the other Senators would judge our debate on whether or not to hold a vote. I fully expected to have an extended debate with Lord Poe in that thread and I was deeply surprised when he just left instead.

I posted that thread there because I knew that Poe could reply to it--and I wanted him to.

He chose to leave instead.

Bullshit.

I know revisionist history is something of a forte of yours, and I don't have the time to get into it with you and to be frank I'm even less possessed by the inclination. You posted that thread to have Poe dis-enfranchised of his senatorial position. At no point did you even attempt to call him out to account on what he did to you - and make no mistake on this issue Marina, you had EVERY right to feel hurt and fucking angry on how he not only threw down at you at random but also so viciously attacked you - you instead tried to begin a dogpile on him by other Senators.

Unless that was all part of your <Baldrick>cunning plan</Baldrick> to have him defend himself for his actions only to you, while at the same time having to defend himself to every other Senator who was being invited into this [Discussion] topic.

In fact your plan was so cunning in engaging Poe in a little one-on-one you recuse yourself from the thread in your sixth post.

Heads up, my laptop has a worm, so I have to go to the lab to use the computers now. So I will be intermittent for the near future.

Knife wrote:I'm not sure how you can say that. All those posts, while deep with nasty, still argue the point at hand and are not ad hominems. If you think the dissolution of the Senate will some how make all emotional outbursts and/or all heated discussions go away, I think you're hoping for the unreachable.

No, let's be fair here - I cut loose on a straight ad hom affair. I did it with a purpose - to show Keevan how out of line personal attacks are here, but let's not paint it as some kind of rational and thought out argument when it was "How do YOU like it, huh?"

thejester wrote:C'mon, that comparison is obviously ridiculous. Those groups aren't public, don't have a say over board policy, and probably spend considerably less time navel gazing than the Senate.

Firstly I fail to see how publicity factors into it. Whether the behavior happens in public or behind closed doors, it still happens. Secondly, you keep waffling about how we are ineffective and can't get anything done, but that we have a say over board policy. Which is it? if you accuse us of not getting anything but ban polls done, how can you then say we dictate things to the rest of the board?

Eliminating the Senate won't change all of the boards problems, but as it stands it serves no useful function that couldn't (shouldn't?) be handled in other areas and generates a tremendous amount of bad blood amongst the board membership.

Tell you what, I can name the past problems that the Senate was intended to correct that it largely has - mod star chamber accusations, a safe place to argue with the staff, and allowing Mike to shift some of the burden off. So now I charge you to name 3 board problems that will go away if the Senate is eliminated. Three problems completely eliminated if Mike nukes the Senate tomorrow.

I'm not arguing that it should be gone because I think it's threatening my non-existant Testingstan way of life; I'm arguing against it because I think it's pointless and is doing more harm than good.

Tautology is not productive. Show these problems that didn't exist before the senate, that are a result of the senate, that will go away with the senate.

I actually thought the MESS prank was the first clear demonstration of what a total waste of time it was; the Testing debacle just confirmed it.

So if this is an outgrowth of being pissy about Marina's Testing snit fit, why say it isn't a few sentences up then?

And I take quite the opposite stance to Bounty - the Senate is a joke not because it has power but because it has none. It's a pseudo-mod staff that can throw accusations, mud and stupidity at will but can't actually do anything. I know the natural response then is 'So? Who can it hurt?', but if it can't actually do anything what's the point of having it?

That doesn't counter the Who can it hurt point at all. Mike hasn't raised any issue with Senate bandwidth and memory consumption, so why eliminate it even if it does nothing? We have a few dead forums here that we've never eliminated, what does it matter if this one exists or doesn't?

The creation of the House of Commons surely underlines the point - the plebes now have a place where they can voice their grievances, to the Senate, who will then bump them to the Admins. So why have the Senate?

Aside from the fact that they operate under different rules, as I have pointed out? We are trying to engage in a constructive conversation here, please quit engaging in tautology.

As recent events show, they're clearly no better at judgement on board policy than the plebes.

While there is zero love lost between me and a few of my fellows here, I still think that this is untrue.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I posted the thread to call him out, with the expectation that the other Senators would judge our debate on whether or not to hold a vote. I fully expected to have an extended debate with Lord Poe in that thread and I was deeply surprised when he just left instead.

I posted that thread there because I knew that Poe could reply to it--and I wanted him to.

He chose to leave instead.

Crown got to this first, but no. You didn't call him out, you called for his punishment and then removed yourself. You aren't as clever at manipulating people as you like to think Marina, and a 5 second investment of time goes to that thread. We are having a somewhat productive discussion here, and it should continue. Recuse yourself from this if you must, but I would ask that you don't engage in your daily behavior and derail this into more drama.

Crown wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I posted the thread to call him out, with the expectation that the other Senators would judge our debate on whether or not to hold a vote. I fully expected to have an extended debate with Lord Poe in that thread and I was deeply surprised when he just left instead.

I posted that thread there because I knew that Poe could reply to it--and I wanted him to.

He chose to leave instead.

Bullshit.

I know revisionist history is something of a forte of yours, and I don't have the time to get into it with you and to be frank I'm even less possessed by the inclination. You posted that thread to have Poe dis-enfranchised of his senatorial position. At no point did you even attempt to call him out to account on what he did to you - and make no mistake on this issue Marina, you had EVERY right to feel hurt and fucking angry on how he not only threw down at you at random but also so viciously attacked you - you instead tried to begin a dogpile on him by other Senators.

Unless that was all part of your <Baldrick>cunning plan</Baldrick> to have him defend himself for his actions only to you, while at the same time having to defend himself to every other Senator who was being invited into this [Discussion] topic.

In fact your plan was so cunning in engaging Poe in a little one-on-one you recuse yourself from the thread in your sixth post.

It really was my intent, Crown. So I didn't logically think it through--I was upset and I wasn't thinking at the time. But that was, sincerely, my genuine intent, and pretty much I'm just staring here aghast at getting accused of being a liar when I really, really did intend to pull him into a debate. I expected Poe to answer the initial post with the reasons why he shouldn't be stripped from the Senate, and then I'd reply with why he should, and so on, and so on. But Poe never showed up, and then people demanded I recuse myself, so I did. That is REALLY what happened, nothing more or less. But fine. If people want to believe random stuff about me like this, well, hell, I don't know what to do. I'm speaking as sincerely and honestly as I can when I say that I wanted Poe to defend himself by debating me in that thread.

But that was what I was thinking when I created the thread, though my intent changed about twenty times afterwards, 'tis true--I had never wanted him to leave the board, but then I started to feel mad again and took pleasure in it, which was probably what set Shep off... I was just really hurt by the whole thing to the point where I barely went to class that day and ended up not doing so at all the next day. The whole affair basically left me non-functional for a solid 48 hours. I had gotten so used to the board being tolerant and understanding to the point where I didn't have any fear of that thing here, and then people started stabbing me in the back in short succession.

Folks, I think we're creating a little more drama than is necessary here.

Surlethe wrote:Folks, I think we're creating a little more drama than is necessary here.

None of what I did after Poe's accusation was coherent, logical, or rational. I'll willingly going to admit to that to disperse this from going anywhere unfortunate. Nonetheless, I'm not lying--however fucking stupid of a way of enacting it my chosen method was, and it was all that and more, it was still my intention in posting that thread in the Senate. I didn't even realize until now that anyone thought my motivation was different than that.

But that was what I was thinking when I created the thread, though my intent changed about twenty times afterwards, 'tis true--I had never wanted him to leave the board, but then I started to feel mad again and took pleasure in it, which was probably what set Shep off... I was just really hurt by the whole thing to the point where I barely went to class that day and ended up not doing so at all the next day. The whole affair basically left me non-functional for a solid 48 hours. I had gotten so used to the board being tolerant and understanding to the point where I didn't have any fear of that thing here, and then people started stabbing me in the back in short succession.

Do you think maybe it's commentary like that that leads to people considering you an unhinged looney?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
It really was my intent, Crown. So I didn't logically think it through--I was upset and I wasn't thinking at the time. But that was, sincerely, my genuine intent, and pretty much I'm just staring here aghast at getting accused of being a liar when I really, really did intend to pull him into a debate. I expected Poe to answer the initial post with the reasons why he shouldn't be stripped from the Senate, and then I'd reply with why he should, and so on, and so on. But Poe never showed up, and then people demanded I recuse myself, so I did. That is REALLY what happened, nothing more or less. But fine. If people want to believe random stuff about me like this, well, hell, I don't know what to do. I'm speaking as sincerely and honestly as I can when I say that I wanted Poe to defend himself by debating me in that thread.

But that was what I was thinking when I created the thread, though my intent changed about twenty times afterwards, 'tis true--I had never wanted him to leave the board, but then I started to feel mad again and took pleasure in it, which was probably what set Shep off... I was just really hurt by the whole thing to the point where I barely went to class that day and ended up not doing so at all the next day. The whole affair basically left me non-functional for a solid 48 hours. I had gotten so used to the board being tolerant and understanding to the point where I didn't have any fear of that thing here, and then people started stabbing me in the back in short succession.

If things get to that point than you should simply take a break from the board until you calm down and can think rationally. You won't be the first to do so and you won't be the last, I've had to do it numerous times. I know its alot easier said than done but you should consider it. Because it leads to stuff like this:

JointStrikeFighter wrote: Do you think maybe it's commentary like that that leads to people considering you an unhinged looney?

Cpl Kendall wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
It really was my intent, Crown. So I didn't logically think it through--I was upset and I wasn't thinking at the time. But that was, sincerely, my genuine intent, and pretty much I'm just staring here aghast at getting accused of being a liar when I really, really did intend to pull him into a debate. I expected Poe to answer the initial post with the reasons why he shouldn't be stripped from the Senate, and then I'd reply with why he should, and so on, and so on. But Poe never showed up, and then people demanded I recuse myself, so I did. That is REALLY what happened, nothing more or less. But fine. If people want to believe random stuff about me like this, well, hell, I don't know what to do. I'm speaking as sincerely and honestly as I can when I say that I wanted Poe to defend himself by debating me in that thread.

But that was what I was thinking when I created the thread, though my intent changed about twenty times afterwards, 'tis true--I had never wanted him to leave the board, but then I started to feel mad again and took pleasure in it, which was probably what set Shep off... I was just really hurt by the whole thing to the point where I barely went to class that day and ended up not doing so at all the next day. The whole affair basically left me non-functional for a solid 48 hours. I had gotten so used to the board being tolerant and understanding to the point where I didn't have any fear of that thing here, and then people started stabbing me in the back in short succession.

If things get to that point than you should simply take a break from the board until you calm down and can think rationally. You won't be the first to do so and you won't be the last, I've had to do it numerous times. I know its alot easier said than done but you should consider it. Because it leads to stuff like this:

JointStrikeFighter wrote: Do you think maybe it's commentary like that that leads to people considering you an unhinged looney?

Which, if it were a normal argument, I certainly ought do, and I'd be a fool for staying around. But what else could I have done in a situation where the fundamental core of my existence was trampled upon? I was afraid if I just checked out of the board that my name would just be demeaned and dragged through the trash in my absence in ways that are most horrifying to me. That's how I saw the whole thing.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Which, if it were a normal argument, I certainly ought do, and I'd be a fool for staying around. But what else could I have done in a situation where the fundamental core of my existence was trampled upon? I was afraid if I just checked out of the board that my name would just be demeaned and dragged through the trash in my absence in ways that are most horrifying to me. That's how I saw the whole thing.

It's a BBS Marina, not many people here know you in RL correct? So what does it matter? Obviously your response didn't help you out much, people see you in even a worse light now than before. You could have took a break, calmed down and prepared a rational response. PM my wife (Mrs. K) and ask her how well your response used to work for her. Honestly, you don't have to tell me how it feels. I understand but screaming and yelling (virtually) won't help much.

The argument would still be there when you return.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Which, if it were a normal argument, I certainly ought do, and I'd be a fool for staying around. But what else could I have done in a situation where the fundamental core of my existence was trampled upon? I was afraid if I just checked out of the board that my name would just be demeaned and dragged through the trash in my absence in ways that are most horrifying to me. That's how I saw the whole thing.

It's a BBS Marina, not many people here know you in RL correct? So what does it matter? Obviously your response didn't help you out much, people see you in even a worse light now than before. You could have took a break, calmed down and prepared a rational response. PM my wife (Mrs. K) and ask her how well your response used to work for her. Honestly, you don't have to tell me how it feels. I understand but screaming and yelling (virtually) won't help much.

The argument would still be there when you return.

Actually, basically all of my current real-life friends I met on SD.net or SB.com, so it is a lot more important for me--my current girlfriend I met here, one of my ex boyfriends posts on the board, the guy we let stay at Amy and I's apartment is a poster, Amy herself was a poster here when I met her.. I met Debi in person, she's Innerbrat, met her on the board, and so on, and so on. So, the board does, I think, have a lot more invested in it for me than for you.

And yet you are still right, it's true. I have to some real extent squandered my position of respectability on the board out of my own paranoia. Can you believe that I once had a reputation here more similar to that of Publius than not, back in 2002, 2003?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Actually, basically all of my current real-life friends I met on SD.net or SB.com, so it is a lot more important for me--my current girlfriend I met here, one of my ex boyfriends posts on the board, the guy we let stay at Amy and I's apartment is a poster, Amy herself was a poster here when I met her.. I met Debi in person, she's Innerbrat, met her on the board, and so on, and so on. So, the board does, I think, have a lot more invested in it for me than for you.

Most certainly. Other than my peers in the MESS, I don't know many people here beyond the board enviroment.

And yet you are still right, it's true. I have to some real extent squandered my position of respectability on the board out of my own paranoia. Can you believe that I once had a reputation here more similar to that of Publius than not, back in 2002, 2003?

Well I ddin't join till 2004 and I think you were gone for a good while during that year. People change though, look up anyones history here and see how they've changed. You cannot go through what you've been through and not have issues.

I'm tempted to say Marina deserves her own thread, if folks want to go that route! I don't want this to turn into a moratorium on any one individual's personality, like or dislike. I've been trying to steer these threads towards some sort of catharsis so we can figure what, exactly, is the malaise (damn I feel like Jimmy Carter) and deal with it-- or, find out if it is just some personal feelings on slow boil so we can either confront or reconcile.

People, I hate to have to say this, but at some point some of us are just going to have to reconcile the fact that we enjoy the board and being here, and yet we have to accept that there are also some personalities here that maybe we don't really want to deal with. That's... life. We have people here from all over the world, from countries that just a few years ago would not have been allowed to talk to one another in some cases, and we're all coming from our own personal & cultural perceptions. Some of us are going to rub others the wrong way, and vice versa. We can seek peace to a point, but at some point we're just going to have to accept and drive on.

-- And about Poe: Wayne Poe is a grown-up. He went through the ASVS wars and the early days here, he regularly confronts stupidity on the net and certainly gets lots of flack from his animations, no doubt... I seriously doubt that his recent blow-up can be laid squarely at Marina's feet or anyone else's. He's no cream puff and if anyone seriously thinks a one-thread dust-up with Marina is all it takes to drive him off, then they seriously underestimate Poe. Like anyone here, he has more in his life than just SDN and itis actually a bit arrogant of us to think that one of us, here, gave him his life-altering tipping point.

No doubt Poe has other things bugging him, and this just happened to be the place where the situation hit critical mass.

It's pretty funny that even within the Senate itself, there's no consensus about what the Senate is supposed to be. Zeon's right in that it was clearly set up very much tongue-in-cheek, but it's behaviour has generated a lot of bitterness (specifically through elitism and hypocrisy, which has been publically aknowledged).

While I think the Senate is an absolutely hilarious joke for the exact opposite reasons Zeon does (from my perspective it's pompous play-acting), maybe you guys should all sit down and decide what, if anything, it's supposed to be. I personally liked Publius's suggestion when he pointed out that Senate membership is not a duty but a benefit - it's not about government or absurd political drama nonsense.

Coyote wrote:-- And about Poe: Wayne Poe is a grown-up. He went through the ASVS wars and the early days here, he regularly confronts stupidity on the net and certainly gets lots of flack from his animations, no doubt... I seriously doubt that his recent blow-up can be laid squarely at Marina's feet or anyone else's. He's no cream puff and if anyone seriously thinks a one-thread dust-up with Marina is all it takes to drive him off, then they seriously underestimate Poe. Like anyone here, he has more in his life than just SDN and itis actually a bit arrogant of us to think that one of us, here, gave him his life-altering tipping point.

No doubt Poe has other things bugging him, and this just happened to be the place where the situation hit critical mass.

From what I can see about Poe is, he doesn't like criticism.

There are a number of people who enact or portray themselves as an internet tough guy. You can get too caught up in that personality, that you will end up having a negative attitude that is bound to piss off a friend in the end. When you got caught up in a debate, you can't tell the difference between attacking a fundie and a friend.

You act so aggressive towards people who have the wrong opinion that you forget the fact that you are also acting aggressive over another person gender.

Just my opinion anyway.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Vendetta wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Just to note, the reason why I brought up things like the dispute with Poe in the Senate is because I felt it would be impossible to actually debate him anywhere else due to the fact that every single discussion on this board turns into a dogpiled shitfest. Debating on the board has become essentially impossible anywhere except the Senate.

I thought that was what the coliseum was for, though in that case it may have needed several steps back from both parties in order to actually debate the issue raised without the personal impact seeping in.

That use for the Coliseum was proposed after the events with Poe took place.

The Coliseum was created for the express purpose of debates without dogpiles, well before the dustup between yourself and Poe.

For the opening topic, I'll have to the general displeasure of all administrators, moderators and Senators to say that I do not feel intimidated by them, despite their clear desire to cultivate their dark lord -esque reputation. No, I actually feel respect for them, for I have not yet encountered a moderator or an administrator who would act truly assholish towards me in particular or would act unfairly in their duties towards anyone in general (whether I share their opinions or points of view is a different matter entirely). As for Senators, some of them I respect and some I don't (although I make a point of at least trying to act cordially and respectfully to everyone, since I see no point in getting angry over Internet debates), just like regular posters.

I do, though, usually have a separate appreciation for, let's say a moderator, when he or she acts as a moderator and when he or she acts as a "regular poster". As normal posters, they might have irritating ideas and opinions and I might disagree with them; however, as moderators they act fairly (having foul language does not make someone unfair).

As to the general distress over the board's change in culture and "unwritten rules", I'd hope that after the initial confusion and flurry of posts and grand gestures every poster would have done at least some introspection. I don't believe MUCH will change in the boards' structure itself: the rules will most likely remain the same, with possible little tweakings; some new moderators will arise (and maybe some will disappear); and maybe some forums will become more better looked after. However, what I would very much like believe is that the posters themselves, or rather their style, will change: instead of immediate opening of gunports and ordering air-strikes, so to speak, there is an escalation period (so that if some new poster might have some misunderstanding or "stupid" question he would not be immediately flamed with such overbearing ferocity; and debates would not so quickly change from "disagreement" to "open Internet warfare"); and instead of mocking people for their backgrounds the mocking would focus, if necessary, on their ideas, opinions and posts (it's pretty tiresome to see someone drag some posters' real-life behaviour constantly to the fore, or their previous background in the board).

Without any doubt there will still be flames, still be mockery and still be heated arguments and debate, for that is the nature of this board and one of the reasons why so many people enjoy being here (Miss Manners boards are quite loathsome, indeed); and insults will still be thrown around. It gives this place that certain flavour that keeps it interesting besides interesting topics and good posters (and make no mistake, the general level of posts is rather high here, despite the possible drop in quality). I just wish that people could learn from the mistakes and misunderstandings that have led to this tumoltous period (and of which this very sub-forum is a testament) instead of slowly, surely and quietly forgetting all these and continuing the perceived downwards spiral. As the member Ender noted in one thread, it is too much for few users, whether they are peons, Senators or staff, to try to keep the quality up if the rest of the board seems hell-bent on devolving from the arguable but reasonable, rational and accepting lot into a bunch of monkeys throwing excrement whenever they get excited, angry or simply bored.

Stardestroyer.net was always (supposed) to be a place of logic and reason, where arguments were fair and based on logic, while the dishonest could be smacked down. Well, perhaps "smacked down" is a bit of wishful thinking since one just learned to ignore the word "fuck" and that takes care of most of the insults. But in any case, it was a new type of message board. A BETTER type of message board. The people in it were therefore, superior as well since they argued with logic and reason as opposed to the masses of Internet ignoramuses. And since the board allowed, even encouraged, mockery of stupid people, flaming those whose inferior mind gave them wrong conclusions, conclusions different than the one you came up with, was the accepted action of course.

Now take two people with such opinions and attitudes about debating and stick them in the same thread on opposite sides of the issue. What happens is Pure. Comedy. Gold.

Ender wrote:Firstly I fail to see how publicity factors into it. Whether the behavior happens in public or behind closed doors, it still happens.

IMO part of why it happens is because it's public; it's political theatre.

Secondly, you keep waffling about how we are ineffective and can't get anything done, but that we have a say over board policy. Which is it? if you accuse us of not getting anything but ban polls done, how can you then say we dictate things to the rest of the board?

In what sense are they contradictory? The Senate has a say in board policy. That it can never agree what it is, and that those in a position of power never see fit to implement it, is a small mercy. Either way people still look it and say 'Holy shit, these crazies are supposed to be important?'

Tell you what, I can name the past problems that the Senate was intended to correct that it largely has - mod star chamber accusations, a safe place to argue with the staff, and allowing Mike to shift some of the burden off.

It hasn't solved the first two at all. It has at best shifted the mod accusations to itself (and expanded them ten fold) and it didn't provide a safe place to argue with the staff until the House of Commons was created (itself a result of users cracking the shits in Testing/OT anyway).

So now I charge you to name 3 board problems that will go away if the Senate is eliminated. Three problems completely eliminated if Mike nukes the Senate tomorrow.

Tautology is not productive. Show these problems that didn't exist before the senate, that are a result of the senate, that will go away with the senate.

I think getting rid of the Senate will remove a huge amount of bad blood that currently exists amongst users, go some way to removing the party-line me-tooing and lead to some actual solutions being put into place (more mods). Will it solve all the problems? No. But it will solve some of them.

So if this is an outgrowth of being pissy about Marina's Testing snit fit, why say it isn't a few sentences up then?

You might take your own advice - you're not as good at being incisive and cutting as you think. Read what I wrote. I thought the Senate demonstrated its uselessness during the MESS prank. The Testing debacle was just the icing on the cake.

That doesn't counter the Who can it hurt point at all. Mike hasn't raised any issue with Senate bandwidth and memory consumption, so why eliminate it even if it does nothing? We have a few dead forums here that we've never eliminated, what does it matter if this one exists or doesn't?

Because it's a stupid, embarassing joke, and arguing that it should be remain because other useless forums haven't been given the arse isn't much of an argument at all.

]Aside from the fact that they operate under different rules, as I have pointed out?

Changing the rules would be frigging trivial; fuck, I didn't even know it was a problem until you pointed it out.

Look, I'm not going to chuck a hissy fit and leave or some shit if the Senate doesn't get removed. But I think Stark has basically said it all: it has no clear purpose and has generated a tremendous amount of bitterness amongst the general populace.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Which, if it were a normal argument, I certainly ought do, and I'd be a fool for staying around. But what else could I have done in a situation where the fundamental core of my existence was trampled upon? I was afraid if I just checked out of the board that my name would just be demeaned and dragged through the trash in my absence in ways that are most horrifying to me. That's how I saw the whole thing.

...on an internet board. By some lard ass. Maybe you need to limit your use or something. I mean if I'm getting called a limpdick abusive boyfriend in real life, I take a breather. Or at least try. But this is the intrinsic problem with arguing with you, you do take everything super personal and super serious and you betray a lack of perspective. Yeah, maybe people would have been trampling your name all over the place, but that is not up to you, and hopefully your friends remain your friends. Simply yelling at people to not do it is not going to make them like you. The best possible solution to be gotten there is a lot of people think you're trying to get people banned for offending you personally, and a lot of people who don't like you will say so off-board instead of on-board.